Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

Lava · 2019-08-13 03:07:31

Grieving has gone in this game for far enough now. What seems like obvious issues that can be fixed are shadowed by you saying that wild foods are a problem. Their not, the reset condition was impossible to meet no matter what. We post screen shots of tons of tons of iron blocked by towers, we post about juniper cuttings, your response?

You guys should protect them! You always avoid grieving and accept it as part of the game. News flash grieving is never fun. I wonder how the Pax Players will fare when we have a community of grievers on discord who manage to cut all the juniper trees, Take most of the iron in the rift, and steal and diesel mining picks we have. Its not our fault the ease in grieving the game right now. We cant escape, And now were just stuck with no iron because its been grieved. But of course you never blame the grievers, its our fault right? Its the players fault that two people can slotter twenty with duel war swords, its all our fault. Its never the trolls fault, but its our fault because we fail to defend against them and we just have to accept that grieving is apart and allowed in this game freely with no consequences what's so ever.

stardust · 2019-08-13 03:28:44

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE. This game has gone to the dogs. He got our money and now he doesn't care. I feel that he will make it easier for the griefers in the future. I feel that it all got a bit much for him and this is his way out. If no one plays he doesn't have to keep adding playable updates. My assumption is that he will make it impossible for the regular players and up the ante for his friends the griefers. As it stands there is no point in establishing a town, griefers just follow you in the gate before you can close it and slaughter the entire town. Sad state of affairs but this is emulating real life.

Villas · 2019-08-13 04:02:29

Today I was playing in Deatley town, It was a nice town. I was farming some milkweed for slot boxes and a boy was farming trees, we needed a lot of soil, but there weren't hoes and shovels, so I decided to make some. When I went to the smithering area, there were about seven people doing "music", they were spamming items on floor, whitling. It was so annoyng, but ok, I could stand that, untill they took all smithering stuff to make song, they took the charcoal, bellows and steels, I literally begged them to stop, I couldn't even threat them, there were so much people doing that, they didn't let us work, took all pies. I curse a woman who was taking the bellows and two "musicians" cursed me back. My aunt stabbed a guy who was taking the charcoal from forge, and then they stabbed her and healed the guy. It was so frustating.
Thankfully raides went south, I almost openned the gate, but there were people really trying to work there. I just forget it and decided to get some milk. After some minutes, some guys went south to fight the raiders and all "musicians" went there as well, I ran to the forge to make at least a shovel for compost, but the guy saw and took the charcoal, I couldn't even kill him because I destroyed my knife to make a saw for slot boxes. I said "fuck you" and another troublemaker "musician" told him to kill me. The guy held his knife and I just ran.

It's becoming impossible, griefers are multiplying. Cursing/killing are not working anymore, unless the griefer is alone, but now griefers are playing together, so they can support each other, heal them, curse back and fool people. They don't even need discord anymore, they recognize themselves in-game.

People who like music or roleplay, it's ok if you don't help the town, you can do your stuff, but please, don't get in the way.

CatX · 2019-08-13 08:48:45

I don't think he doesn't care.

I think it's a matter of the developer's vision.

Someone once told him that 'griefer' is a village job in the same way baking, hunting or farming is, and that notion seems stuck in his mind.

He seems to believe that griefers are necessary to create tension, and he seems to think that it is possible to develop game mechanics that lets players and griefers live side by side and create fun for each other.

My guess is he hoped that by implementing war swords, griefers would kill other families instead of their own, and fences would protect us from outsiders hence protect us from griefers. Thus, griefers and normal players creating fun for each other.

He seems to fail to realize that efforts like that doesn't really matter because the nature of griefing is to not play the game as intended.

My feeling is we will not see any true progress in this issue until the developer's vision evolves. Until then, griefing will remain the game's biggest weakness is my guess.

kubassa · 2019-08-13 11:24:46

EVERYONE? Please share the stats on your made up 'FACT'. The reality is your 'EVERYONE' s a vocal minority.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-08-13 11:50:58

Rule #1 of making a multiplayer video game:
The creator(s) cannot make new content faster than the player base can consume it.

The solution for the vast majority of creators is to allow the player base to amuse itself. That is why you see so much PvP in multiplayer games. It is there just to keep people sticking around with a stale game until the next (usually paid) DLC content dump happens.

OHOL is no different in that respect. Regardless what is or isn't being claimed.

The_Anabaptist

CatX · 2019-08-13 12:07:11

The_Anabaptist wrote:

The creator(s) cannot make new content faster than the player base can consume it.
The solution for the vast majority of creators is to allow the player base to amuse itself. That is why you see so much PvP in multiplayer games.

You have a point.

I wish OHOL could be more of a PvE than a PvP though. The challenge could be to survive winter and a hostile environment. A message could inform us of how many winters we have survived, and how long until the next one. Something like that.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-13 14:09:56

Which multiplayer video game does not have griefers?

I mean, unless I implemented some kind of draconian report-and-ban thing, and then I'd have a full-time job going through reports and passing judgement on people one by one. Forever.

Do you know how many angry letters I still get about donkeytown?

"I paid for game and now I can't play, waaaahhh. This game promised that I could do anything but then you make it so I can't grief everyone. Who do you think you are, bad dev."

Imagine if there was actually a perma-ban function.... sheesh. I'm pretty sure that would be against Steam's policy, at least.

And before you say, "JUST REMOVE PVP," .... uh... pvp has nothing to do with it. Cutting down every Juniper or slaughtering every sheep isn't PVP. PVP is the only tool you have to stop such things from happening.

Dodge · 2019-08-13 14:15:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

Which multiplayer video game does not have griefers?
I mean, unless I implemented some kind of draconian report-and-ban thing, and then I'd have a full-time job going through reports and passing judgement on people one by one. Forever.
Do you know how many angry letters I still get about donkeytown?
"I paid for game and now I can't play, waaaahhh. This game promised that I could do anything but then you make it so I can't grief everyone. Who do you think you are, bad dev."
Imagine if there was actually a perma-ban function.... sheesh. I'm pretty sure that would be against Steam's policy, at least.
And before you say, "JUST REMOVE PVP," .... uh... pvp has nothing to do with it. Cutting down every Juniper or slaughtering every sheep isn't PVP. PVP is the only tool you have to stop such things from happening.

Yes it's true every multiplayer game has griefing, but i never seen a game where it's this unbalanced, a griefer can destroy hours of work in 2-3 minutes, griefers in Rust for example, what is the worst they can do?

Build next to you and annoy you? But that still requires them hours of playtime to do so.

Dodge · 2019-08-13 14:43:25

How do you know if someone with a knife is going to slaughter all the sheeps or be a nice shepard/baker.

If someone already slaughtered all the sheeps, how do you know who did it?

Are you supposed to stay by the sheep pen for 60 minutes and guard the sheeps?

Should you play the game as someone paranoid who sees anyone as a potential troublemaker?

You give someone an axe, how do you know he is going to chop down tree responsibly or wipe out all the surounding junipers?

By the time you notice the cut trees the offender is already long gone without a trace.

Is there a serial number on the axe?, Are there fingerprints?

The suspect is potentially anyone since everyone can kill sheeps, chop trees etc.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-13 14:57:18

Wait, Rust?

Rust has god-given property rights through a tool chest that creates an unbuildable half-sphere around and above it. But as soon as you open your door, they can come in and take control of your tool chest.

This game has god-given property rights through fences and gates (now modifiable via elder approval and a waiting period).

What's the worst a griefer can do in this game other than build next to your fence?

The main difference here is probably that the griefer can be born to you, and attack you from within. That doesn't happen in Rust. But this is also why, in Rust, there is very little player cooperation, coordination, positive interaction, etc. Players are NEVER family in Rust. They are always Other.

Of course, allowing strangers to be family has its trade-offs. But this is the fundamental premise of OHOL.

CatX · 2019-08-13 15:00:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

And before you say, "JUST REMOVE PVP," .... uh... pvp has nothing to do with it. Cutting down every Juniper or slaughtering every sheep isn't PVP. PVP is the only tool you have to stop such things from happening.

Perhaps we should call it PvG and GvP?

I think you're right, we can't remove griefers. But, for every game feature it's wise to ask whether the functionality benefits griefers most, or normal players.

Dodge · 2019-08-13 15:07:01

jasonrohrer wrote:

Wait, Rust?
Rust has god-given property rights through a tool chest that creates an unbuildable half-sphere around and above it. But as soon as you open your door, they can come in and take control of your tool chest.
This game has god-given property rights through fences and gates (now modifiable via elder approval and a waiting period).
What's the worst a griefer can do in this game other than build next to your fence?

The main difference here is probably that the griefer can be born to you, and attack you from within. That doesn't happen in Rust. But this is also why, in Rust, there is very little player cooperation, coordination, positive interaction, etc. Players are NEVER family in Rust. They are always Other.
Of course, allowing strangers to be family has its trade-offs. But this is the fundamental premise of OHOL.

Who doesn't lock his tool chest with a wooden lock

Yes they are different games, but the point is there are very little games that have this much unbalance in terms of griefing and those who had these unbalances are porbably dead games by now.

Ilka · 2019-08-13 15:58:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Which multiplayer video game does not have griefers?
I mean, unless I implemented some kind of draconian report-and-ban thing, and then I'd have a full-time job going through reports and passing judgement on people one by one. Forever.
Do you know how many angry letters I still get about donkeytown?
"I paid for game and now I can't play, waaaahhh. This game promised that I could do anything but then you make it so I can't grief everyone. Who do you think you are, bad dev."
Imagine if there was actually a perma-ban function.... sheesh. I'm pretty sure that would be against Steam's policy, at least.
And before you say, "JUST REMOVE PVP," .... uh... pvp has nothing to do with it. Cutting down every Juniper or slaughtering every sheep isn't PVP. PVP is the only tool you have to stop such things from happening.

Jason, bring back the curse of killers.

Also from other families.

Just enough.

Currently, griefs are about 1/4 of the game's population (only about 40 people play outside of rush hours).

You really need to react somehow or the game will die.

You may not care, but if the number of players drops to 20, no one will buy the game anymore.

Calm players are running away, but some are still waiting for your reaction.

Give us some opportunity to deal with griefers.

DestinyCall · 2019-08-13 17:11:09

I think some people would still buy the game. Not everyone checks Steam reviews before making a video game purchase.

Spoonwood · 2019-08-13 18:00:41

jasonrohrer wrote:

Which multiplayer video game does not have griefers?

Go, Chess (some people do play those as video games instead of as board games). Better still, M. U. L. E. does not have griefers.

Lava · 2019-08-13 18:09:58

jasonrohrer wrote:

Which multiplayer video game does not have griefers?
I mean, unless I implemented some kind of draconian report-and-ban thing, and then I'd have a full-time job going through reports and passing judgement on people one by one. Forever.
Do you know how many angry letters I still get about donkeytown?
"I paid for game and now I can't play, waaaahhh. This game promised that I could do anything but then you make it so I can't grief everyone. Who do you think you are, bad dev."
Imagine if there was actually a perma-ban function.... sheesh. I'm pretty sure that would be against Steam's policy, at least.
And before you say, "JUST REMOVE PVP," .... uh... pvp has nothing to do with it. Cutting down every Juniper or slaughtering every sheep isn't PVP. PVP is the only tool you have to stop such things from happening.

I never said PvP should be removed I think its necessary in a game like this. I'm just saying you should do more things to give players the advantage in the fight against them. its very easy to grief and I'm sayin it should be harder. Things should be harder to do like you shouldn't be able to duel wield war swords etc. Rather than targeting the grievers, cause obv that's never going to happen, Steps should be taken to make grieving harder.

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 18:56:35

Yes, and many steps have been taken, over the life of the game, to make it more difficult for unilateral griefers to get the best of the non-griefing majority.

That's why you slow down when holding a bloody weapon, and the victim has a chance to tell the tale and be healed by others, etc. Also why cursing was added. These features were not present in the game 15 months ago. They were added to give the majority more power over individual actors.

I'm still working on it, of course.

But if someone is sneaking around and doing something you don't like (planting the wrong crop, killing the sheep, cutting down the trees, gathering and hiding valuable resources), that's very hard for me to stop. It's also hard for me to give YOU the power to stop it. I mean, you can catch them and kill them (or curse them) but beyond that? What if you can't catch them?

The only answer to that general problem is property rights of some kind. They can't kill your sheep if they can't get to them.

The problem, of course, is that property rights can be used by griefers too!

This has been tempered somewhat with the elder power to remove fences. But it's a delicate balance. Essentially, we need to offer players the power to protect themselves (which the griefers will also use to cause trouble), but somehow grant the majority the power to override that power.

Dodge · 2019-08-20 19:31:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

But if someone is sneaking around and doing something you don't like (planting the wrong crop, killing the sheep, cutting down the trees, gathering and hiding valuable resources), that's very hard for me to stop. It's also hard for me to give YOU the power to stop it. I mean, you can catch them and kill them (or curse them) but beyond that? What if you can't catch them?
The only answer to that general problem is property rights of some kind. They can't kill your sheep if they can't get to them.

It's a multi faceted issue but currently only property rights will not work to protect from all griefing.

Mostly there is an issue if griefing is fast, easy, effortless and has an annoying/frustrating or game breaking effect compared to it's crafting, building, etc counterpart.

For example hungry work for maples completely solved the issue since now it has become tedious and boring for a griefer to try to cut all the maples (now they cut the junipers)

Regarding trees property rights is not a viable solution, unless you really expect players to guard trees and limit the acess to a basic ressource that everyone needs, it's not practical at all and not realistic to expect that from players.

Imagine someone standing in front of his tree farm property gate for his whole life and giving branches sparingly to who needs it, not very interesting, nobody is going to do it.

Maybe at some point private tree farms and lumber workshops could be a thing, but not in the current game.

For the sheeps it could be a partial solution, one of the main issue is that currently everything is in a tribal like setting with villages shared by everyone and there is no real reason to make private property (griefing is not a real reason since you cant expect players to make individual properties for the sole purpose of being protected by griefers, the incentive is not high enough for the counterpart of building all these individual structures instead of simply sharing everything amongst the same family)

Mainly there is no private property because you have no reason to have your own bakery, farm,pen, smith shop etc.

Everyone can make everything and do it with the same quality so having separation to have any sort of benefit from it doesn't make any sense since there is no benefit.

So the least effort makes it so tribal villages are 99% of villages and private property is an RP element currently, which makes different ressources likes sheeps vulnerable to griefers.

Mr meeseeks · 2019-08-20 20:40:30

While grieving can't, and shouldnt be stopped.. I do think it could be balanced a bit more.

I like the drama it creates.

But the easiest weapon to craft is the most difficult to heal.

It's quick and easy to build a newcommen tower to block off resources..

Twins are awful and difficult to stop in time to save the town.

Resources are less of an issue outside the rift, but it's far too easy to deplete them inside it.

I don't know how to fix it, but surely there are solutions.

WalrusesConquer · 2019-08-20 20:59:57

Also can we agree that mass grieving to change a game mechanic sucks? Sure, wow so noble greater good ect. But between that getting changed you just ruin the game more than the bug did.
The rift wasn't that big of an issue. It became one when people started cutting down all the trees to prove a point.
Wars words weren't that big of a problem. At first it was the coolness of learning a language.
It became a problem when people started spawning as eves on purpose to show how "broken" It was.
Can we just, like, deal with an update for once without a million topics complaining and a bunch of "Self Sacrifice".

DestinyCall · 2019-08-20 21:36:17

I have mixed feelings regarding people who "grief to prove how broken something is".

On the one hand, griefing is bad and it hurts the people who just want to play the game like normal people. Even if you grief for a "good" reason, you are intentionally ruining the fun for other players. It's not cool and encourages even more people to turn to griefing out of frustration and anger. I don't think it is healthy for the game, since it spreads negativity, inspires violence, and generally breaks the game. Even if the ultimate goal is to inspire positive change, this approach leaves behind a lot of collateral damage.

That being said, I can't help understanding why this happens. Many times, obvious problem will get ignored for a long time untill they get too big to ignore. So making a bad situation even worse might encourage action to be taken more quickly.

Anyone who has played OHOL prior to the update could have guessed the outcome of the Rift scarcity experiment. It wasn't a question of IF the map would be heavily griefed, but simply a question of how FAST it would get griefed beyond repair. The Rift has the potential to be fun, but not when it means we are all trapped in a box with limited resources, a bunch of griefers, and no way to escape.

Likewise, the addition of war swords and close Eves spawns on the same update was bad combination with predictable results. Some of the town massacres were done to prove how easily one person with a sword could wipe out a whole town. But a lot of the mayhem was just regular griefing made easier by a flawed update that made mass-killing super easy and risk-free.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-08-20 21:37:18)

jasonrohrer · 2019-08-20 21:51:29

Dodge, you are talking about the difference between natural resource griefing and human-made-resource griefing.

Property rights can only protect the second kind of resource. And they do so, generally, in other games too (Rust's tool cabinets protect your stash, but they don't protect the trees and mineral nodes, unless you build a VERY big fort/wall around a huge area).

A game like Rust solves this problem by making natural resources respawn endlessly and quickly. But this is part of the reason why player interaction in Rust isn't very interesting or complex. It's essentially a single-player grinding game where the only interaction is PVP to steal another player's grind. There is no reason to trade natural resources. Just go out in the wilderness and grind out as much as you need.

Furthermore, in Rust, aside from PVP, there really is no survival pressure. You don't NEED to farm.... not really.

I think OHOL is more interesting in this regard. Resources run out, so even an early Eve camp is on a pretty tense timeline, with failure lurking right around the corner. Thus, we MUST work together to get things up and running before it's too late.

In general, I want the long-term arc in the game to feel like that. In the Eve camp, it happens over about 30 minutes. I want the long arc to happen over 4-5 days.

And I can't see how it can happen without natural resources running out.

And if natural resources run out.... well... they can generally be griefed, right?

Thaulos · 2019-08-20 22:08:30

Difference is that in rust it is much easier to build than to destroy. FC even had to add timers to prevent players from building in response to raids. It is the inverse in ohol.

Killing all sheep. takes a few seconds and clicks. To get sheep I'll probably need to plant mw. Make arrow, rope, prepare food for sheep, search for it, wait for baby, kill it, drop bow, carry baby all the way back, feed it and then go back for bow and back to town again.

Using up all milkweed only takes picking it up, making ropes, tying ropes to long shafts, and cleaning any seeds from bowls. 10 seconds is enough most of the time. To fix it one nedds to go search for milkweed (good luck with that) get seeds back, spend soil, water and time, hope you have hoes, plant everything and wait. Then stand guard to make sure no one picks milkweed in the wrong state so you can get seeds.

Destroying forges and furnaces only takes a pickaxe laying around and a few clicks. if you then also make ovens out of the extra adobe on forge area and pickaxe that you effectively delete adobe. To fix that people will need to search around for clay which is usually far from town, find straw or tule and bring it back. This is usually 10+ adobe to fix what was destroyed. Griefer can even then use pickaxe to block entrances by making ovens and taking the pickaxe with him.

A single griefer can do all of the above and more in 60 seconds. There is effectively no counter. Griefing is too easy and effortless, fixing griefing too labor intensive.

Give us more information about who is born among us and we can then deal with it ourselves by prevening serial griefers from even playing on our town.

Last edited by Thaulos (2019-08-20 22:14:04)

CatX · 2019-08-20 22:18:06

jasonrohrer wrote:

And if natural resources run out.... well... they can generally be griefed, right?

Not if nature itself is the cause for resources running out, instead of people.

The Rift is already meant to function as a cycle: "Spring"; everything is new and fresh, but hard work is required, "Summer"; civilization is thriving, "Autumn"; resources are starting to run out, "Winter"; literal hell on earth unless your family is prepared. But in the Rift the "seasons" came about by people exhausting resources, which made the system vulnerable to abuse.

Could we not have real seasons instead? It would put us on a tight schedule to build houses, make wool clothes and gather firewood before the next long winter. If griefers wanted to kill all geese they would do little damage, for in spring and summer geese could respawn in intervals, while in the autumn the geese would leave anyway, so it would be a waste of time to kill them.

I don't even think added graphics would be necessary. A forest filled with milkweed that keeps respawning would feel like spring. A forest empty of both milkweed and all natural foods would feel like winter, even with green trees and green grass all around.

And if one point of the Rift ending is to reset the server, well, some winters could be worse than others...

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#1 2019-08-13 03:07:31

Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

#2 2019-08-13 03:28:44

Re: Everyone Complains about greiving but nothings being Done.

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