On the Decline of Eve Camps

Spoonwood · 2019-06-05 21:50:21

First off, by an Eve camp for this post I mean a camp where a woman and her children are trying to make a camp from scratch. Eves not trying to build a camp are outside the scope of this post (which did exist before the advent of mass griefer Eves). A woman who is not an Eve, but functions as an Eve for one reason or another trying to build a camp from scratch and her children trying to do that also, all falls under the scope of an Eve camp. By from scratch I mean they start with objects in the natural state of the game before any players interact with objects, or having a very low amount of changed objects on the ground (e. g. a sharp stone or three and maybe some curved branches on the ground counts as 'from scratch' also... it's not from scratch if clay bowls have gotten fired).

From what I've heard after the "Come Together Update" the meta of building a camp from scratch sort of got thrown out or at least weakened. Instead of an Eve out in the wild starting from scratch, she would go out and find another already developed camp (perhaps one without people) and then develop that camp. Also, with the inability to slash die to Eve, and only a few families alive at a time, I suspect that the number of Eve camps has massively declined (I will note I only have limited confirmation of this) in proportion to the player base. So, from what I hear, Eve camps have declined in frequency. Why is this important?

The fundamental concepts of this game are survival, parenting, and civilization building. We can ask as to how well these concepts get fulfilled by players and can meaningfully get fulfilled by players. We can also ask, what sorts of camps are more likely to have more parenting and civilization building?

So, let's take a step back and look at an Eve camp in comparison to other camps. In an Eve camp everything that gets built gets built for the first time in a family. Of course not everything is built in an Eve camp, sometimes ovens for example aren't built until after an Eve dies, however the first objects in the family get built whether it's a kiln, a sheep pen, berry bushes, carrot rows, or a milkweed farm. It seems clear enough that every person in an Eve camp is at least building. And since players have tended to struggle with Eve camps the most in terms of challenge, newer players probably get coached by parents more often in an Eve camp... at the very least when I was Eve I coached my parents more than in later camps. Such coaching in effect can get regarded as a form of parenting. Thus, in an Eve camp, there exists little question about players trying to play cooperatively fulfilling the core concepts for the most part.

However, in later camps, there exist things which more fall under the category of civilization maintainence in contrast to civilization building. I do want to note that civilization maintainence is important (insofar as things can be important within the context of concepts of a game). However, it is not because of maintainence itself, but rather because it enables better civilization building or better parenting. In an Eve camp domestic berry bushes get created. After that, though some more berry bushes may get created, berry bushes get maintained when languishing. In an Eve camp carrots might get grown, but after there, there's a hardened row, so it's more like a farm gets maintained instead of built. In an Eve camp, at least some bowls for farming and plates get created. Later generation camps might (and do) create those also, but some of those might be replacement bowls and plates. The first set of pies cooked relies on a new set of plates. The next set probably uses old plates.

Now the above does not rule out that later camps may build as much as an Eve camp. However, due to civilization maintainence and players who can get called 'roleplayers' (who mostly stand around and talk or casually take on some small project like making an altar and showing it off to people) feeling more comfortable in general in later camp situations, there probably exist more responsible parenting and more building in an Eve camp than in later camps.

Unless I am mistaken about Eve camps compared to other camps, the above means the decline of Eve camps means that fewer players are fulfilling the core concepts of this game.

What to do about the problem of declining Eve camps?

I'll also note that the lineage ban exists and can block players sometimes resent 'breakaways'. I know I have. They don't always start from scratch or even try to simulate such a situation. Players in some developed village trying to find their own spot to develop a camp can get followed and thus the Eve experience can get blocked by people trying to mess up the children of an Eve. Or they can get killed before that even happens by some murderous griefer.

Consequently, I am very much in favor of utility programs getting developed so that people can spawn out in the wild and become an Eve and get started on making an Eve camp.

Edit: As of 12/20/19, I've come to realize that there's a little more important. We're suppose to have a civilization that makes it to the point of some suitable replacement for 'iphones'. That's inline with civilization building. I do NOT think that Eve camps only would be good at all. A diversity of town types makes for the ideal situation (this was one problem that plagued The Rift... early camps were all too rare and had to be, because the system eliminated those as a possibility over time). And that includes towns that last a very long time even if they have gotten to 'iphones', since there's more possible stories if we had very long lasting towns on bigserver2. I still maintain though that it's not a particular happy situation when an Eve has cause to find some other camp than to start her own. Someone has to start things from the ground up, and there's more civilization building when things start from scratch. And the foundations of the game can get better understood.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-12-20 08:06:35)

Bob 101 · 2019-06-05 21:56:44

Need a come less together update. The old system had Eves spawning in the wild but very rarely they could spawn in town.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-05 21:58:27

Bob 101 wrote:

Need a come less together update. The old system had Eves spawning in the wild but very rarely they could spawn in town.

I agree.

Deleted User · 2019-06-05 23:19:11

Bob 101 wrote:

Need a come less together update. The old system had Eves spawning in the wild but very rarely they could spawn in town.

Agreed. I loved founding my own camps and travelling 4+ k to Bell Town, for the purpose of ultimately connecting distant villages.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-06 00:36:45

Fniux wrote:

Bob 101 wrote:
Need a come less together update. The old system had Eves spawning in the wild but very rarely they could spawn in town.
Agreed. I loved founding my own camps and travelling 4+ k to Bell Town, for the purpose of ultimately connecting distant villages.

Could encourage road building if there was a way to respawn if you lived to 60.

Spoonwood · 2019-06-06 00:42:52

Bob 101 wrote:

Need a come less together update. The old system had Eves spawning in the wild but very rarely they could spawn in town.

On another read, I'm not so sure that's necessary. I mean such would satisfy needs, but I'm definitely NOT making a suggestion that Jason change anything here. I'm saying that a utility program would be a better way to satisfy valid player preferences. The game loads up a lot of stuff before you play. The spawning mechanics might load and effectively be static at that point in time. So, then if perhaps some utility program were to change spawning mechanics after the game loads, maybe players using an appropriate utility program could spawn via how the Eve spiral was before the 'come together' disaster. Maybe it would need handled when you login, also and maybe spawning gets handled server side... but there might exist/come into existence some way so that spawn mechanics could get changed via the client. I don't really know, but I'm not going to rule anything out of hand... precisely because I don't know.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-06-06 00:47:32)

Sukallinen · 2019-06-06 14:46:00

Jason, problem: all horse(carts) get stolen all the time from towns that need them, probably because some wish to eve. Also I leave bone-piles of SIDS now where-ever I walk.

I've brought horses back to no-horse-town as my only mission twice (same town) during last 12 hour-period.

I had suggested solution to have horsecart be able to have second horse, so people who want to try eve don't steal everything from town and try to haphazardly build town of their own, i.e. two-horse-cart where one can be detached. Not much programming there to do, just change item from two-horsecart to one horsecart and one horse (with lasso) from horse-fence. Not too elaborate solution, feel free to suggest easy to code one too.

When I were a male I could do all the stuff, make eve-camp reasonably far and come back when old, asking someone wanting to eve. Maybe even give name (*gasp* use for RP'ing marriage if woman gets my last name easily-or we're from same lineage who cares).

JasonY · 2019-12-20 06:55:48

Yeah Nah

Spoonwood · 2019-12-20 07:45:40

I heard Tarr mention on the discord that he was back to trying to find a town as an Eve, instead of trying to create his own camp. I think, because the race restrictions had something to do with it. Consequently, this post might have some relevance to present concerns.

Oh and before people say I'm JasonY, might want to check where he made that "The origin of Spoonwood?" topic s/he made not too long ago.

fug · 2019-12-20 07:50:43

I mean yeah, I was the only brown lineage on the server. In what world would I not walk to the main city on the server?

It makes absolutely no sense for Eves to start towns if the server isn't fresh especially if they're one of the required races for climbing tech. Eves shouldn't be out there making Eve camps because you're required to meet up with other families to succeed so as soon as you spawn the "correct" play is to just walk east until you find people or a city. Having race specialization basically makes making new towns silly unless the old towns are incredibly crappy.

testo · 2019-12-20 08:13:33

Funny how I see race specialization making a lot more sense in the rift. Don´t get me wrong, I hated the rift because a 750 square is a joke, but race specialization forces all cities to be multicultural permanently thus protecting each town from genocide.

On the other hand I also hate we call this "race specialization", when in reality it is more like "race restriction". I mean it is not that each race has an advantage to develop civilization in a particular biomass but rather that everyone but that race is forbidden to carry stuff on it.

It seems the days of Eve camping far away from everyone else won´t ever come back anyways, may as well start your Eve runs checking for complementary families/stablished cities around to suplement what they already have.

Kinrany · 2019-12-20 10:27:16

fug wrote:

I mean yeah, I was the only brown lineage on the server. In what world would I not walk to the main city on the server?
It makes absolutely no sense for Eves to start towns if the server isn't fresh especially if they're one of the required races for climbing tech. Eves shouldn't be out there making Eve camps because you're required to meet up with other families to succeed so as soon as you spawn the "correct" play is to just walk east until you find people or a city. Having race specialization basically makes making new towns silly unless the old towns are incredibly crappy.

Oh, right: you're always better off moving to a large town. IRL we can't do that because living in a large town costs more and because we have important non-movable property.

ollj · 2019-12-20 10:47:09

rubber horsecarts are common now, and they carry a LOT of stuff to resettle/trade/support, and that diminishes eveCamps, while it makes roadbuilding much faster.
This is a necessity due to server populations being 50-100 on any december day.

I ride around a lot, and while gathering flat rocks for roads i do walk/ride further away from main poths. easily traveling 5k per life.
There I finnd many tiny abandoned camps with no houses and no roads and low well tech.
sure, they are rarer, as everything is much closer together now, and more bells closer by attract more eves to come together.

Last edited by ollj (2019-12-20 10:47:39)

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#1 2019-06-05 21:50:21

On the Decline of Eve Camps

#2 2019-06-05 21:56:44

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#3 2019-06-05 21:58:27

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#4 2019-06-05 23:19:11

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#5 2019-06-06 00:36:45

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#6 2019-06-06 00:42:52

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#7 2019-06-06 14:46:00

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#8 2019-12-20 06:55:48

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#9 2019-12-20 07:45:40

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#10 2019-12-20 07:50:43

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#11 2019-12-20 08:13:33

Re: On the Decline of Eve Camps

#12 2019-12-20 10:27:16

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#13 2019-12-20 10:47:09

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