What if we force Eve to get real...

BladeWoods · 2019-05-15 20:51:17

I like the more roads and limited eve ideas. Maybe you only get one 'eve life' per hour? I think it's very common for eves to die to reroll or just not care since they can just be reborn as eve.

Giving only one spring per eve sounds like a good way to force them to be densely packed, but the natural resource exhaustion issue seems very hard to solve. If the older civilization to your south has already collected all the iron to the north, your eve town in the north is fucked.

Perhaps you could lower or even remove the spring cooldown for eves? Does there even need to be a spring cooldown?

CatX · 2019-05-15 20:59:30

Yes please to more roads!

Would it help to add some available water to the spring head, so that the Eve could start using it even before turning it into a well? In other words, have it work like an ordinary pond in the beginning.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-15 21:42:31

For now, I'm just speeding up the rate at which unused Eve springs are reclaimed. It used to wait an hour. Now it will reclaim it immediately as soon as that Eve's line is extinct.

Turnipseed · 2019-05-15 22:16:46

I like the idea if it dosnt take a shovel to make the spring useable

Tarr · 2019-05-15 23:10:16

I mean I sort of think you should fix the unwinnable spots if you're going to repeatedly force people to spawn to them as long as the bad location is open for someone else to spawn on it. I did a quick 11 spawn survey (I did 11 because I spawned 1 too many times and just added it anyways.)

Spawns that I would classify as unwinnable spawns for Eve:

Spawns I would classify as difficult but potentially possible to play:

Spawns I would classify as playable locations:

Funny enough that third location under playables had no ponds so it's actually not a usable location even if the biome mixes are correct. I could have collected more locations by just running along the fault line but I let rng decide where I ended up. I really think if you want to just stuff Eves into the same areas over and over again rapid fire you either need to fix having these bad locations or make them at least usable. Good spawns will be removed from the pool of possible spawns while these unplayables + difficult areas will be constant spawns for Eves which I can't imagine is very fun.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-05-16 00:34:58)

Jk Howling · 2019-05-16 00:34:02

I agree with Tarr's points. I'm also thirding the notion of enabling springs to give us a limited amount of water prior to being dug into a well. You seem absolutely determined to shove us into the same unlivable spring spots over and over again, so do something to make them at least slightly liveable.

Perhaps combining this concept with, say, locking springs to only spawn in grassland biomes.. as we currently cannot play without early access to grassland biomes. Then, it'd give every eve at least a chance at turning their spawn into a decent camp. Or at least, a better chance than the way they currently spawn.

Currently we absolutely require the grassland for our home to be viable. I like to call them the "home biome" while most other biomes are "supporting biomes." These are the places we make our villages. We have to. We can't survive without the items they provide to the early game. These items include:

-Early soil
-Early milkweed
-Most of our early food
-Access to plants such as berries and milkweed for seeds
-Branches for kindling, and all kinds of tools [fire tools, iron tools, cart supplies, fire pokers, bows, fences, flooring, buckets.. everything, really]
-Saplings for home markers, arrows, mixing rubber, cooking rabbits/geese.. etc.

With springs only spawning in grassland biomes, combined with enabling us to use them as a water source before iron tech.. every eve would have a chance, if only slightly improved, at being able to live there than they would if it spawned in the middle of a jungle. Unless all these natural items were to be pushed to the other biomes springs spawn in, we'd have little to no chance to build a home there. You can't expect us to live in a savannah, or a jungle, or the mountains, when you don't supply us with any of the necessary items to survive there.

Last edited by Jk Howling (2019-05-16 00:35:45)

futurebird · 2019-05-16 00:43:39

I think bottom line is if you want Eves close together there need to be playable locations close together. It might be worth it to make 3 soil and 3 water and a spring spawn in a "pod" together then put those pods near each other and place the Eves near the pods.

I have played many games that started from barren locations like the ones Tarr showed, running in some cases 1000 blocks and leaving it to my daughter to keep running or only managing to find a spot for her to get started. But if we are locked to one spring ... I don't think ANY ever run I've ever done would have worked. I've only done maybe 20 or so Eve runs, but still... I always had to go far.

Lastly I have almost never seen a town that didn't have a HUGE green biome nearby. You need the tree branches and the wild food early on. Bananas can almost work too but they run out. A big green biome means you have one of the most underrated items in the game nearby: wild berry bushes. These will get kids past a berry famine and save your town.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-16 00:55:42

Jason,

Tarr is being overly optimistic about spots as playable. In two of them, we can't tell if there exists enough local soil to get a camp off the ground. Actually, in all three we don't know enough about there existing enough milkweed around, unless that gets imported from further away than the home grassland.

I have no idea as to what you call hospitable... it would be interesting to see what you mean.

Eves already have a real challenge. They have no clothing and have to raise children who have no clothing unless the Eve provides it to them.

Jason, I don't believe for a second that you could handle what you propose and do alright on any sort of consistent basis.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Walking endlessly into greener pastures (current grid walk, and old eve sprial) is guaranteed to be safe in terms of enough wild resources to bootstrap.

No. Boars that hide behind trees and snakes that hide behind trees exist.

Also, neighbors, even if found, aren't going to give away water. They don't have the buckets for that.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-16 00:58:00

Tarr wrote:

If you want the players to play the hand their dealt you can't deal them a terrible hand and make folding so easy. This is the easy choice. As people have suggested making an Eve token system based off something means people would try their hardest to survive if there was something at stakes. However, this still means you have the issue of terrible spawns and good spawns which means even the most skillful Eve will die to a terrible spot either due to bad biome mixes or players just refusing to stay with an Eve.
The hard choice is to make more biomes actually livable. Putting in the work to make it so places other than the two meta choices are at least somewhat livable. This means whenever a spring spawns somewhere the Eve has an actual chance to thrive instead of handing out unwinnable situations 90% of the time and telling the players to prove you wrong. Resource bleed (things having a main and secondary biome spawn), new clothing options (something that makes hot biomes livable just like we have clothes to make cold biomes easier), or some other idea.

yes

Tarr · 2019-05-16 01:06:16

Spoonwood wrote:

Jason,
Tarr is being overly optimistic about spots as playable. In two of them, we can't tell if there exists enough local soil to get a camp off the ground. Actually, in all three we don't know enough about there existing enough milkweed around, unless that gets imported from further away than the home grassland.
I have no idea as to what you call hospitable... it would be interesting to see what you mean.
Eves already have a real challenge. They have no clothing and have to raise children who have no clothing unless the Eve provides it to them.
Jason, I don't believe for a second that you could handle what you propose and do alright on any sort of consistent basis.

The areas I listed as playable had a family settled somewhat close at a better spring spawn than of what I had posted for those pictures. Without a doubt what I put in the playable category are good enough to start a town (as long as there's iron and other needed supplies close.)

The difficult category are places I didn't want to say auto-failed like the others since they at least had water but didn't have the things within immediate distance of the spring to be workable. I would basically rate them unlivable as is but you could potentially bring soil or other goods to the spring location to work there. These are basically the sort of locations you look for a few seconds and then kill yourself when it's clear you can't play here.

The unwinnable locations are basically just that. A mix of biomes that are unlivable due to lacking water sources, being a bad biome mix, or just being a jungle. These are locations that with Jason's suggest idea someone is always going to get stuck at and unless they find a town nearby they will fail and some other unfortunate soul will be dragged to fail there too.

Booklat1 · 2019-05-16 01:11:39

Tarr is definitely onto something, biomes shouldnt even be all liveable but making at least a few of the combos better would greatly improve eveing.

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-16 01:51:53

The problem that I saw was clearly viable spots that were never settled. Certainly, you shouldn't have to walk 800 tiles, past many viable spots, before you find a village. Eve dying in a spot tells us nothing about it's suitability, because Eves are dying all the time (947 Eves per day).

So, the quick re-use of abandoned Eve springs (dead line that never made a well) will give us a better chance of packing in closer to each other, and slower gradual walking of the spawn area.

Yes, a "good" Eve can still walk a bit to find a good spot. That's fine.

lychee · 2019-05-16 02:11:41

Coming at this from the perspective of a newer player, I personally would have a really hard time judging what is a “liveable” spot or not. I don’t have that kind of experience.

My first reaction is to (panic) and walk around a bit, even if the location I spawned in would be considered “liveable” by more experienced players.

If I happen to stumble upon an existing village, the most tempting solution to everything is to join the other village as an eve. I keep seeing this on YouTube videos including those by twisted — there’s all these eve’s that are walking around in other people’s villages (even despite the language barrier).

My point for saying this is that the closer villages are pushed together, the more likely it is that Eve’s will attempt to merge into existing villages. This is the most natural response for players that don’t feel too comfortable with their Eve meta. This probably contributes to why it looks like there are all these natural spring locations near villages that aren’t taken by eve’s.

Buggy · 2019-05-16 02:18:11

lychee wrote:

Coming at this from the perspective of a newer player, I personally would have a really hard time judging what is a “liveable” spot or not. I don’t have that kind of experience.
My first reaction is to (panic) and walk around a bit, even if the location I spawned in would be considered “liveable” by more experienced players.
If I happen to stumble upon an existing village, the most tempting solution to everything is to join the other village as an eve. I keep seeing this on YouTube videos including those by twisted — there’s all these eve’s that are walking around in other people’s villages (even despite the language barrier).
My point for saying this is that the closer villages are pushed together, the more likely it is that Eve’s will attempt to merge into existing villages. This is the most natural response for players that don’t feel too comfortable with their Eve meta. This probably contributes to why it looks like there are all these natural spring locations near villages that aren’t taken by eve’s.

If there is another town that close they probably collected most of the close iron anyways. Might as well just live together in their town why reinvent the wheel they have all the tools ready made.

futurebird · 2019-05-16 02:20:23

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem that I saw was clearly viable spots that were never settled.

It'll be tricky to get the map to "fill in" without just having towns merge in to each other. Even with the language barrier and the threat of swords. Sadly I think swords now just make it too easy for a big family to simply clear out another and then you just have a huge sprawling town rather than distinct thriving towns. I think Tarr is right that they remain overpowered but I at least understand what you are trying to do with them a little better (I think...)

The language idea is good for keeping some distinctness along with closer proximity.

The missing element is persistence. Towns tend to last a max of about 8 hours or so right now... even towns without external problems or intentional sabotage. This goes back to births.

What if having a deeper linage depth gave you preference for babies if the number of fertile women is low? So if I'm gen 55 and the last woman, I get more kids, possibly even skirting any area bans? You have said in the past that towns have the advantage of yum... but why do they still die? I feel like they die just at the point that identity start to emerge... just after the sign with the town name goes up and someone gets a kickn' rubber operation working. You look up from your sign making and everyone is gone.

Tarr · 2019-05-16 02:37:29

jasonrohrer wrote:

The problem that I saw was clearly viable spots that were never settled. Certainly, you shouldn't have to walk 800 tiles, past many viable spots, before you find a village. Eve dying in a spot tells us nothing about it's suitability, because Eves are dying all the time (947 Eves per day).
So, the quick re-use of abandoned Eve springs (dead line that never made a well) will give us a better chance of packing in closer to each other, and slower gradual walking of the spawn area.
Yes, a "good" Eve can still walk a bit to find a good spot. That's fine.

In my specific situation all the livable areas already had families settled within walking distance of where I could have potentially settled. This means badlands were likely to have been picked over already meaning my choices would have been to walk off into the wilderness to find a new good spot or suicide and hope for another usable area to pop up. The side effect of everyone being so close now is that it's probably too easy to casually walk over and join a preexisting town rather than start from scratch.

If the idea of trying to make more biomes livable is too much why not just remove springs from biomes that cannot support life? Badlands, jungle, savannah all cannot be a starting place for a family because you don't have the foundation to start a village in those biomes. I mean late game if you wanted to split off and start an outpost while already having some level of tools it would be possible to settle these areas but Eve doesn't have access to this and by the time she does you've already likely settled down.

The real issue with the idea that Eve gets to only see her spring and throwing Eves back to loser springs is that in the case you spawn in a bad location like 8/11 of those pictures you could just walk and find a new place if you wanted. Removing that option basically forces players to look for an old town around their location to settle instead of starting from scratch. It's basically the issue server three had where if you spawned as an Eve in a bad spot you couldn't play unless you went and revitalized one of the towns.

Though honestly, I guess a smart player could stop spawning to a particular bad area by making sure to shoot one of their babies, thus hitting one of the ban triggers to stop them from spawning back onto a horrible spawn. So I guess if you spawn in the jungle your options are to go join an old town or commit infanticide.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-16 02:48:44

Tarr wrote:

So I guess if you spawn in the jungle your options are to go join an old town or commit infanticide.

Ah, the age old question ... is it better to shoot a baby in the face or give up on ever finding a decent Eve spawn?

ryanb · 2019-05-16 04:01:20

If you want camps to find each other easier, how about a cheaper, less effective bell. Such as placing leaves on a fire to make a smoke signal. It could show up as a marker for anyone within 500 tiles or so and only last a few minutes. The marker would disappear once the fire goes out.

Thaulos · 2019-05-16 04:25:18

While you are at it why not replace the home marker with the eve spring.

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