A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-10 02:30:21

I haven't read it yet, but it looks very interesting:

https://mises.org/library/against-intel … property-0

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-11 04:23:13

I've read part of it. It is excellent.

GreatShawn · 2019-03-11 04:35:20

Lord of rings is better

even better than sesame street.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-11 04:45:00

i've read his essays against intellectual property, but not the actual book. it really is an absurd concept, and represents a government granted artificial monopoly.

To quote the great Flavor Flav, "Y'all can't copyright no beat, yo Chuck are they crazy man?"

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-11 05:15:00

Yes, I agree....

Though how is someone supposed to operate an online video game service without a "monopoly"? Most of them operate using trade secret, I guess, which is a monopoly provided by reality instead of government. It would be very hard for someone to operate a clone of Riot's LOL game service without access to their server source code.

Maybe my biggest mistake is not keeping the server code a secret... though that would make it impossible for mods, which I want to allow...

I guess I could have built a mod-ecosystem right into my server universe, so that people could upload server mods to run on my servers, which are running secret code.

fragilityh14 · 2019-03-11 05:26:48

in general, monetizing open-source things is a challenge, it's a sharing type economy. it's why most good open source things are made by a large group of volunteers and/or hobbyists. Or make money off of paid tech support, server access like this, etc.

There isn't an obvious solution that doesn't involve government force besides keeping the code secret, and trade industry rules, such as a private agreement with Valve.

I'm not a coder, but that people can get into the code and find out all sorts of crazy stuff that's going on in game is an amusing and endearing, if sometimes frustrating, aspect of this community.

Lily · 2019-03-11 11:45:28

To be honest you basically already got a monopoly. You got beat in the mobile market because you never showed up. There is no mobile alternative so that is why those mobile companies are doing well selling your game. PC and mobile are not direct competitors, so it isn't like a person is buying their mobile version over yours, it is an entirely different market.

If you made one big mistake, it was probably not hiring someone to sell a mobile port yourself. Honestly, I would of just take their money and let them make their game the official version. If you have no plans on going into the mobile market yourself, might as well let them service those customers for you. As long as they put out a good product, it will beat out anyone putting out a shady, lesser quality one, so you don't got to worry.

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-11 16:25:25

Well, I don't believe the game should ever be on mobile. It wasn't designed for mobile. It was designed for keyboard and mouse. I have designed games for mobile, and they worked very differently that this game in terms of UI. I have also designed a game for Nintendo DS, and again, that worked very differently than a game designed for mouse and keyboard. I design around my target device. That's a very important part of my practice.

So I was never going to do that, nor hire a company to do that. The mobile devs did their best in an impossible situation: trying to make a good touch UI for a mouse-based game. They did excellent work. I can't imagine a better way than what they did, but I still cringe every time I use those controls. And it's pretty awful if some people think that I authorized that, or even that I designed those controls. I just wouldn't do that. I would instead say, "It's impossible to make good controls for this game on mobile, so I will not do it at all."

And yes, it is mostly a separate market....

On PC, I would have a really hard time out-competing free or even very cheap. A $2 direct OHOL clone on Steam would absolutely destroy me. Without trademark, they could call it OHOL and use exactly the same logo, and maybe even the same store text that I'm using.

So imagine you search for OHOL in Steam, and see two versions: the $20 version, and the $2 version. They look identical. Which one do you buy?

Lily · 2019-03-11 21:39:38

I doubt steam would allow it though. Even if it is technically legal, that doesn't mean it might not turn into a massive headache. There are still possible legal issues and it isn't worth stepping into that mine field, plus they wouldn't want to alienate their customers or the game publishers that they work along side. Failing all that, the knock off would probably get review bombed for copying you. Not to mention a brand new game would have very few players and people don't want to play on an empty server.

Also, if someone tries to undercut you with a direct clone, they will know that someone else can do the same thing to them. So the long term outlook on the clone probably isn't going to look good from a profit perspective. Someone may think they could make a quick buck but a fly by night clone that tries to make a quick buck then bails on the players is going to be seen even more negatively.

So I don't really think you need to worry too much about a direct clone on PC.

On a side note, circling back around to the review bombs. You seen steam lately? It has gotten pretty vicious with a lot of games. It seems like half or more of the games, even front page games in the spotlight get hit by them. Recent views for most games are often negative or mix, even when the all over scores are very good. People will definitely notice a copy and review bomb the hell out of it.

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-11 22:07:38

Well, with the resources that I've posted on Github, someone could easily set up a full-blown PC clone of One Hour One Life in less than one day of work, if they knew what they were doing.

Likewise, since all the Steam assets are in GitHub, they could get it up on Steam with very little work as well.

So, for a few days of work, they would probably at least be seeing $10K or $20K of profit before Steam users caught on.

Now, you're right that Steam won't allow it, but that's weak sauce for me to be depending on, or as a "back door" in my faith in the public domain.

And yes, I got review bombed after the temperature update. Of course, now it's clear that the game is way better. But people were really mad for a few days.

My "recent" review score when from like 78 down to 55.

Lily · 2019-03-12 01:58:44

I doubt they would make that much, since they would be selling it at a much cheaper price and the newer game wouldn't likely show up very high in any search results, so it is unlikely many people would even find it right away. Also I don't know how good steam's review process is but since they are supposed to review games, there is a chance the game would get caught before it ever went up.

Also in a case like this, if a game sneaks through and later got removed, I would suspect that steam would withhold payment and offer a refund to all the customers. So if that happens, they wouldn't make any profit off it. Also it might be a breach of some rules or what not, so maybe steam would sue the person too. I have no idea, would have to ask a lawyer, though I suspect it might not be something they would just let slide.

There are a bunch of open source games on steam, but as far as I know, I never heard of anyone making quick fakes to try to get money. I am skeptical of how easy it would really be.

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-12 02:10:19

What open source games on Steam?

Any that also have a permissive content license as well?

lionon · 2019-03-12 07:36:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

My "recent" review score when from like 78 down to 55.

Well humans generally don't go light on change. Whatever it may be.

Lily · 2019-03-12 09:14:58

There are a lot of open source games on steam, though finding the license rules for them is kind of a pain, since there are so many different kinds. Most seem to be some version of creative commons, or some version of GPL.

On a side note, The Castle Doctrine is on steam and no one has tried ripping it off yet as far as I can tell. Since it isn't currently being updated and a lot of people complain about how it should have a sale, it seems like it would be an ideal game to copy and sell for $2 to try and make quick cash, yet no one has done it yet.

CrazyEddie · 2019-03-12 15:09:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

What open source games on Steam?
Any that also have a permissive content license as well?

I happen to know of one which I greatly enjoy (and have contributed to in small ways): Zero-K. It's an open-source RTS that's a direct descendant of Total Annihilation (and even predates Supreme Commander!).

The game is distributed via Steam as a free game (as well as directly from the Zero-K website) and is developed entirely by a community of volunteers, so unlike OHOL nobody is making any money from it. The game code is all GPL. The content comes from a variety of sources with licenses such as public domain, MIT, GPL, and CC-BY or similar.

The game was distributed entirely through the website for many years, but a few years ago the developers got it onto Steam, first through Greenlight as a work-in-progress and then eventually as an official release.

The game is free both as in freedom and beer, and unlike most free games on Steam it's not "free to play", it's just free, as in "actually free". There's no ads, no in-app purchases, no premium content. You can use Steam to make a donation which helps pay for the servers, and that gives you a custom avatar as a thank-you for donors.

It would be difficult for someone to "make a quick buck" off of cloning Zero-K because they can't undercut the price of free. They'd also have to pull some of the content that was CC-BY-NC but that isn't much. They'd also have to stand up new infrastructure - which they could do, because all the infrastructure code is also open-source and is in github but it would be a gigantic pain in the ass. And they'd have to build a community of players, because it's primarily an online game (although it can be played single-player against AIs and there is a single-player campaign). So copycatting isn't really an issue for this game.

My guess is that the only open-source for-pay games on Steam are yours.

Last edited by CrazyEddie (2019-03-12 15:15:05)

lionon · 2019-03-12 15:36:52

CrazyEddie wrote:

My guess is that the only open-source for-pay games on Steam are yours.

Seven Kingdoms.

jasonrohrer · 2019-03-12 15:50:55

Any examples of open source games on Steam that are selling well? Seven Kingdoms has 52 total reviews and 2 concurrent players.

Seven Kingdoms 2 has better sales and more concurrent players (6), but only the source of that one is GPL, and the content does not have an open license.

Enlight released GPL source code in August 2009 for the original game Seven Kingdoms: Ancient Adversaries, and did the same for Seven Kingdoms II. However, the game data would not be released under the GPL. Enlight said that it was still making a profit through digital sales of the game. In the open source project supported by Enlight found at www.7kfans.com, a goal of the project would be to write a common engine to both games. The original game CD for Windows is required to install Seven Kingdoms II.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Kin … yhtan_Wars

lionon · 2019-03-12 18:27:32

Ja, I believe the release of Seven Kingoms 1 as OpenSource was considered an advertisement move for their new, closed source variants.

Otherwise, nothing I know of. At least through the list of games I skimmed through that are OpenSource in and out, I suppose there might be quite a bunch with OpenSource engine but protected content.

lionon · 2019-03-12 18:38:09

PS: There are quite some free games, while not OpenSource or "free as in beer" that make a living from the main dev soley on donations. Dwarf Fortress comes to my mind, I suppose Toady is keeping over water quite well. There is Crystal Shard with the wonderful free game of "Heroine's Quest: The Herald of Ragnarok", he asked for patreons, dunno how he's floating. (I wanted to give one free donation, for what I considered the game worth, but not sign up for patreon... didn't work out)

What I'm trying to suggest, maybe just ask... (quoting here Amanda Palma, great TED talk)

Last edited by lionon (2019-03-12 18:41:22)

ryanb · 2019-03-15 05:39:10

I just saw Dwarf Fortress will be released on Steam for $20. It will be interesting to see how it does.

lionon · 2019-03-15 05:51:29

ryanb wrote:

I just saw Dwarf Fortress will be released on Steam for $20. It will be interesting to see how it does.

Wait what DF gets graphical? Awkward

I suppose much like every Steam release? Nice sales on the first days or even weeks then exponential decay when the new age short attention span group moves on.

Anyway in Toady's case this is additional to the ~6k a month he gets from patreon.

Last edited by lionon (2019-03-15 05:56:01)

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-03-10 02:30:21

A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#2 2019-03-11 04:23:13

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#3 2019-03-11 04:35:20

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#4 2019-03-11 04:45:00

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#5 2019-03-11 05:15:00

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#6 2019-03-11 05:26:48

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#7 2019-03-11 11:45:28

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#8 2019-03-11 16:25:25

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#9 2019-03-11 21:39:38

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#10 2019-03-11 22:07:38

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#11 2019-03-12 01:58:44

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#12 2019-03-12 02:10:19

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#13 2019-03-12 07:36:25

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#14 2019-03-12 09:14:58

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#15 2019-03-12 15:09:03

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#16 2019-03-12 15:36:52

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#17 2019-03-12 15:50:55

Re: A book that lays out arguments against intellecual property

#18 2019-03-12 18:27:32

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#19 2019-03-12 18:38:09

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#20 2019-03-15 05:39:10

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#21 2019-03-15 05:51:29

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