Permanent Civilization

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-07 03:51:43

i know i've harped about this forever,

but having come back after a long break, and now with the big server, I'm convinced that there's no reason family lines need to die. Besides apocalypse, but I believe they live through the apocalypse now just with everything erased, so it's the same family

If, as a group, we collectively take this attitude, now that we're all on the same server, Eves could basically be a thing of the past, and we could make our civilization so enduring Jason needs to make changes based on the fact that there are always fertile women in existing lines.

Currently, iron is a permanent limiting factor, but that's pretty much the only thing that can just kill you off in a region.

However, in the bigger cities there are a ton of horses, and often many horse drawn carts. It's pretty safe to travel on a horse, with the carts. the big issue, is if you try to leave people get mad about stealing or think you're griefing.

But, as advanced societies, this should be our goal. We set up horse carts with iron tools and firemaking materials, pack them up with pies, and we send our daughters and sons off on horse to explore new land.

Does no one else have the pioneer spirit?

In my opinion the reason people are getting bored of this game is because the mood of the community is not to make humanity survive in the long run.

This should be what you do when Civ reaches the level where it has excess food and doesn't know what to do with more people: set up horses for pioneers and send them out with tools and pies to colonize new land.

nothing is stopping us but ourselves!

Nepumuk · 2019-02-07 05:46:02

I see where you're coming from but your goal is not my goal. Eve-ing is the most enjoyable thing in this game for me (and enough others) and we will not make it a thing of the past just because you want it to be.

Greep · 2019-02-07 06:02:48

The vast majority of players care more about cities than family lines. And pioneering for various reasons helps kill it off in the long run.

mrbah · 2019-02-07 08:18:11

being sent away with food and iron to make a new outpost is only minimally different from eveing.

Nepumuk · 2019-02-07 09:05:00

"being sent with FOOD and IRON"

"only minimally different"

Yeah no.

Portager · 2019-02-07 09:48:06

Greep wrote:

The vast majority of players care more about cities than family lines. And pioneering for various reasons helps kill it off in the long run.

I disagree on the second point. If a small group splits from an overpopulated camp, and does a good job at building a new base, then it might actually extend the line. If a family is split between 2 or 3 camps, it will take much longer for the griefers to destroy everything.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-02-07 13:37:43

I've always had the distinct impression that Jason wants multiple civilizations / towns running simultaneously and that they be in conflict for ... reasons.

So I don't expect your vision of mega city one to be implemented any time soon. Although, a "pioneer spirit" is what more city folks need in their lives. Wanderlust is a good thing.

The_Anabaptist

voy178 · 2019-02-07 14:19:07

The apocalypse feature clearly shows that Jason doesn't want us to build anything meaningful. Why can't the man just let us play and enjoy without all these arbitrary restrictions?

WalrusesConquer · 2019-02-07 15:46:54

I like having our own separate villages. One time a girl found my eve camp and immediately assumed I knew who 'Ezra' and 'the queen' were. Maybe pioneering can wait a bit. At least till travalling as a group is easier.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-07 16:15:08

Portager wrote:

Greep wrote:
The vast majority of players care more about cities than family lines. And pioneering for various reasons helps kill it off in the long run.
I disagree on the second point. If a small group splits from an overpopulated camp, and does a good job at building a new base, then it might actually extend the line. If a family is split between 2 or 3 camps, it will take much longer for the griefers to destroy everything.

I've tried a million times to run off with a bowl as a girl and start a new camp, it's near impossible to get anyone to play with you in a new camp if you aren't an Eve.

I would point out, also, those of us who never use /die never get to play as Eves anyway. It's the same assholes hitting /die in every camp that isn't perfect to their specifications who play all of the eve games now. Since i came back i haven't spawned Eve a single time.

What i don't understand is why isn't this what anyone wants to do? The civilizations reach the peak of their tech tree and people can mess around with planes etc but you fundamentally run out of important things to do. Like humanity, it becomes time to expand to new land. This is why humans took over the whole world, instead of dying out when ancient civilizations collapsed.

Showing up with a few key items makes it massively easier to build a good camp, and makes the immediate food shortages less of a big deal.

The main problems are really this:

1) Not wanting to be the asshole who steals a horse/cart
2) that no one will stay with a mother who isn't in a civ.

So, what's going on here, is that family lines die because of how the community is viewing the game, not because of any shortcomings in the games design.

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-07 16:20:40

fragilityh14 wrote:

Currently, iron is a permanent limiting factor, but that's pretty much the only thing that can just kill you off in a region.

I am very skeptical that any civilization has yet to die due to lack of iron.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-07 16:37:07

CrazyEddie wrote:

fragilityh14 wrote:
Currently, iron is a permanent limiting factor, but that's pretty much the only thing that can just kill you off in a region.
I am very skeptical that any civilization has yet to die due to lack of iron.

I am as well, with horse carts its quite feasible to go long distances iron gathering. i wouldn't be surprised if killing people for wasting iron has doomed more lines than running out of iron itself.

InSpace · 2019-02-07 16:39:49

I've tried to be a pioneer like this, never works. Babies suicide because it's a new area.

mrbah · 2019-02-07 17:19:11

CrazyEddie wrote:

fragilityh14 wrote:
Currently, iron is a permanent limiting factor, but that's pretty much the only thing that can just kill you off in a region.
I am very skeptical that any civilization has yet to die due to lack of iron.

plenty of civs have died due to the last shovel breaking and no longer having compost.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-02-07 17:19:57

Maybe we need to organize a discord or meetup at a particular time to get a group together to demonstrate pioneering from a big town. This has worked well for allowing folks to do quad and triplet eve starts (Hi Nepumuk!). We wouldn't even need to twin, just decide on a target family, and then let folks who are interested in pioneer starts know what your name is...so other pioneers can /die to reach you, instead of /die to get away.

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-07 17:27:45

mrbah wrote:

CrazyEddie wrote:
fragilityh14 wrote:
Currently, iron is a permanent limiting factor, but that's pretty much the only thing that can just kill you off in a region.
I am very skeptical that any civilization has yet to die due to lack of iron.
plenty of civs have died due to the last shovel breaking and no longer having compost.

Perhaps I should phrase it as "... due to exhausting the iron supply." I don't doubt that there have been civilizations that failed to obtain new iron and make new shovels and keep compost running, but I am skeptical it wasn't for lack of trying.

I've been in plenty of civilizations whose end was close at hand, and in no case was it because they'd used up all the iron that was around them.

BlueDiamondAvatar · 2019-02-07 20:39:44

And the Quad Eves discord server has made a channel for us...

Come check it out. https://discord.gg/zaEuAze

Booklat1 · 2019-02-07 20:50:00

Cities don't expand indefinitely because there is no reason too. Server populations are rather stable now, for a city to have a pop spike it must be way more succesful than others, you won't see extensive farming and conquering of new lands to feed people.

We only really leave our cities to find iron and then come back with it.

CrazyEddie · 2019-02-07 21:18:44

Addressing the substance of fragilityh14's OP:

If you're in a prosperous town that has many horsecarts and plenty of food and supplies (including baskets!) I don't know why anyone would gripe at you for taking one of them and loading it up and setting out to make a new outpost. If anyone did, I'd ignore them. It's something completely different, though, if you're taking one of the only few horsecarts in town. In that case, go make your own before taking it away and not bringing it back.

I'm a little surprised that none of your children stay with you at the outpost. It's not that different from being an Eve, and people stay with Eves all the time.

There's nothing wrong with people wanting to be an Eve. There's nothing wrong with people using /die or other means of suicide in order to reach the kind of life they want to play, whether that's an Eve start, a child in an Eve camp, a mid-level settlement (my personal favorite), or a developed town. People have their preferences and there's no point in trying to tell them they have to play the way you want them to play.

You should probably /die to become an Eve yourself more often. Sounds like you might need the practice. People may be leaving your outpost camps because they're poorly located or otherwise display a not-very-promising start. I get born into Eve camps that are obviously hopeless all the time; usually I stay because I want to help the Eve have a positive game experience, but not everyone wants to work on something that's doomed. I don't know if your outposts are giving people the "doomed" impression, but some experience starting Eve camps might help your situation.

happynova · 2019-02-08 01:45:13

CrazyEddie wrote:

People may be leaving your outpost camps because they're poorly located or otherwise display a not-very-promising start.

I think this cannot be stressed enough. (As a general principle, not as a direct commentary on fragilityh14's camps, about which I know nothing.) In theory, I really like the idea of splintering off from huge towns to pioneer a new start. In practice, it seems like almost always when I'm born into such a life, the person looking to be Spinoff Eve has chosen a spot somewhere between poor and abysmal. I'm a big believer in staying and trying to do something with whatever life I'm given, but I've disappointed more than one would-be pioneer mom by defecting and running back to the city.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-08 04:15:28

happynova wrote:

CrazyEddie wrote:
People may be leaving your outpost camps because they're poorly located or otherwise display a not-very-promising start.
I think this cannot be stressed enough. (As a general principle, not as a direct commentary on fragilityh14's camps, about which I know nothing.) In theory, I really like the idea of splintering off from huge towns to pioneer a new start. In practice, it seems like almost always when I'm born into such a life, the person looking to be Spinoff Eve has chosen a spot somewhere between poor and abysmal. I'm a big believer in staying and trying to do something with whatever life I'm given, but I've disappointed more than one would-be pioneer mom by defecting and running back to the city.

You've probably been my kid, I always tell them where the civ they came from is and don't give them a hard time for going back to it.

I've realized only recently people take it really badly if you're set up in the grasslands, even though being by berries is the most practical for the beginning. I've been staying in civs recently, so instead of keeping my kids safe from rattlesnakes and mosquitos like my instincts tell me to do, I will set up in a desert or jungle in the future.

Also I rarely get born to pioneer parents, though it has happened.

Regarding running off with a horse cart, it's a good point that in a town that is in excess of everything, if I'm a young woman, I Could probably sell people on starting a new camp, or at least no one would stop me from taking off.

I have played as Eve a bunch of times btw, just not recently, I'm very capable of getting agriculture going in a game.

Portager · 2019-02-08 04:41:26

fragilityh14 wrote:

Portager wrote:
Greep wrote:
The vast majority of players care more about cities than family lines. And pioneering for various reasons helps kill it off in the long run.
I disagree on the second point. If a small group splits from an overpopulated camp, and does a good job at building a new base, then it might actually extend the line. If a family is split between 2 or 3 camps, it will take much longer for the griefers to destroy everything.

I've tried a million times to run off with a bowl as a girl and start a new camp, it's near impossible to get anyone to play with you in a new camp if you aren't an Eve.

I would point out, also, those of us who never use /die never get to play as Eves anyway. It's the same assholes hitting /die in every camp that isn't perfect to their specifications who play all of the eve games now. Since i came back i haven't spawned Eve a single time.

What i don't understand is why isn't this what anyone wants to do? The civilizations reach the peak of their tech tree and people can mess around with planes etc but you fundamentally run out of important things to do. Like humanity, it becomes time to expand to new land. This is why humans took over the whole world, instead of dying out when ancient civilizations collapsed.

Showing up with a few key items makes it massively easier to build a good camp, and makes the immediate food shortages less of a big deal.

The main problems are really this:
1) Not wanting to be the asshole who steals a horse/cart
2) that no one will stay with a mother who isn't in a civ.

So, what's going on here, is that family lines die because of how the community is viewing the game, not because of any shortcomings in the games design.

I 100% agree that peak civs at the top of the tech tree are very stale. Too many times lately I have been born into developed civs with everything under the sun, and I felt kind of empty inside. When everything is already created, it is very boring to play. Sure I can build some superfluous stuff likes roads, and planes, and buildings...but *yawn*.

I have had multiple babies stay with me as a girl who abandoned her birth camp, and honestly roleplaying pays a huge role in that. A couple of time before I have lied and said that my mom dumped me in the wilderness, and that I have no idea where our original city is. I have also pretended to be a new player, and that often seems to tug at the heartstrings of veteran babies. Often I will rope in a competent brother from my host society as well, so that we can double team our new camp which seems to have a positive effect on baby survival.

Honestly, I am not opposed to stealing a cart and basic tools. If the original society cannot rebuild something so simple as a steel hoe, then they probably don't deserve to survive anyways.

happynova · 2019-02-08 05:20:34

fragilityh14 wrote:

You've probably been my kid, I always tell them where the civ they came from is and don't give them a hard time for going back to it.

Possibly not. I'm thinking of people like the mom who never told me where the city was and muttered about ungrateful kids when I found out where it was and left (while I muttered to myself about how if she'd stayed in the town, my own children would have lived and our bloodline wouldn't be dying out), or the one who called me a "mean baby" for trying to explain to her that we really, really needed to move somewhere with water available and refused to talk to me any more. Lol.

fragilityh14 wrote:

I've realized only recently people take it really badly if you're set up in the grasslands, even though being by berries is the most practical for the beginning. I've been staying in civs recently, so instead of keeping my kids safe from rattlesnakes and mosquitos like my instincts tell me to do, I will set up in a desert or jungle in the future.

Ah, yeah, grasslands seem like the best, most obvious place to set up, but it's a trap! If you're not on a warm biome, it's astonishing how quickly you can use up all those berries. In particular, keeping babies alive becomes sooooo much more difficult in a grass biome. Without a fire going, you have to feed them constantly, using up lots of your own food and preventing you from ever leaving them long enough to get anything done, but with a fire going you use up all your branches before you get as far as making an axe.

What you really need is a spot where grasslands, swamp with ponds, and desert or jungle meet, or are very close together, but that can take a lot of finding. Even just a little patch of desert can help, as a warm place to park a baby on, but ideally you want your berry farm on a warm place that's also close to water, say near the border between desert and swamp.

Of course, there's a big discussion going on now with Jason rethinking how heat works, so who knows how things might change and what the new best strategy might end up being?

fragilityh14 wrote:

Regarding running off with a horse cart, it's a good point that in a town that is in excess of everything, if I'm a young woman, I Could probably sell people on starting a new camp, or at least no one would stop me from taking off.

Yeah, I would think so. And if you're successful, you're spreading the family lineage, which people generally regard as a worthy goal. I do agree: running off with a town's only cart is a dick move. Running off with one of the town's five carts to spread the family line around is fine. Just don't take anything the town can't spare. And definitely try to find a spot that's at least roughly as good as the one you're leaving, or it will likely end up being a wasted opportunity!

Now I'm thinking I really should give this sort of thing a try myself, sometime. (My occasional attempts to leave a town and strike out on my own have been more of the "Screw Murder City here, I'm gonna take off down this road" than the product of a pioneering spirit or an organized attempt to resettle, and they generally haven't gone very well.) I almost always find something in town that seems to want my attention, though, and get focused on that.

fragilityh14 · 2019-02-08 05:24:05

I just went on a very long iron gathering expedition.

There truly was no iron to find, I started find a few around 1.5 k away from the city. However, there were tons of signs of life. Then I found a dead civ, with stacks of wrought iron.

I was able to come home with some iron and wrought iron, after almost an entire life.

I was able to tell people at my camp as well, though I tried to find the city again, and aged out before I even got there.

So one horse cart and 4 baskets wasted. I made my first set of baskets at least though lol.

the sum total of my life accomplishments were like 7 pieces of iron lol.

So, places are certainly being picked dry, though I also found a collapsed civ with good iron stores.

Tarr · 2019-02-08 06:33:18

At the point you have to leave a city to create a new one due to lack of resources why not just play Eve at that point? Sure a hammer head + axe can really speed you up but I think getting a relatively fresh area would be better. Depending on whether you can get a group together for your Eve run you can get all the steel tools + a sheep pen done as the Eves without too much hassle in the long run.

Since cities have been historically always been passed from Eve to Eve most lineages I don't bother remembering the surname of. However, if I see the surname of an Eve that I know from either the forums or discord I'll generally stick around no matter what as these are players I've personally worked with (and enjoy) helping. Plus we're more than likely to rotate to one of the other cities after a server reset then slowly the spiral grows over to some of the smaller (or bigger) cities that we previously were at. Obviously eventually culling occurs but if you really care about your city you can find its coordinates in the lifelogs and just run over from another city (requires the civ to live until log is updated though.)

If you really wanted to keep a place around forever I'd recommend creating a hangar somewhere near (but not close) to a city where you can privately fly and land a plane then do tutorial runs for resources. Right now the biggest plane killers are trolls and people jacking them for joyrides without taking any gas with them. I think we've lost four or so of the last six planes we've put together (shout out to Hrmka and West for helping with the planes) because people won't stop hijacking any public planes.

If you're not about abusing the tutorial for resources then taking a horse and marking iron veins with plaster is your best bet. You could very easily make a runway and make arrows pointing to the direction of the next vein. Plaster can be stored in a horse and making a runway only requires two pieces of road for lift (though I do four just in case). The same thing can be done for other resources such as bunnies if you really want to make moving mass amounts of rabbits easy.

When you have a team working together to build planes it takes less than an hour to put one together from scratch the biggest hurdle to that is getting people who know what they're doing. You need one person who knows rubber, one who can handle the forge (or two for better speed) and likely someone fetching kindling/shepherding. Planes are incredibly OP but if left to the public you're just going to piss away a bunch of work. I'm all for teaching people how to use them but people are more interested in a quick ride than a proper use.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2019-02-07 03:51:43

Permanent Civilization

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Re: Permanent Civilization

#3 2019-02-07 06:02:48

Re: Permanent Civilization

#4 2019-02-07 08:18:11

Re: Permanent Civilization

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