Pip Efficiency Pt.2

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-18 23:36:32

Booklat1 wrote:

but you are wrong, you said many times the number of bites doesn't affect pip efficiency and it does. Each bite has a minimum of one food, which directly correlates to a bigger pip efficiency when compared with the same amount of food. Not just smaller bites waste less, each bite has a cap that is also an element of pip efficiency. You saying numbebr of bites doesn't matter ignores that.

Pip efficiency is based off of pip value, which is based off of ONE bite of a food, not multiple, so when i say more bites doesn't affect pip efficiency, thats what i mean. So by bringing in the factor of new bites you are introducing a new subject that i wasnt exploring, mainly because this post is about pip efficiency, not the affects of pip efficiency, and the affects of bites.

To be honest i think talking about other factors is a good way to get to the bottom of finding out what foods are truly the best in everyway possible, i just think this is the wrong post for doing it, if you would like to discuss stuff like that with me id be happy to engage in a productive discussion, but this thread just isnt the one to be doing that in.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-18 23:44:06)

DestinyCall · 2019-01-19 00:20:57

Crumpaloo wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
but you are wrong, you said many times the number of bites doesn't affect pip efficiency and it does. Each bite has a minimum of one food, which directly correlates to a bigger pip efficiency when compared with the same amount of food. Not just smaller bites waste less, each bite has a cap that is also an element of pip efficiency. You saying numbebr of bites doesn't matter ignores that.

Pip efficiency is based off of pip value, which is based off of ONE bite of a food, not multiple, so when i say more bites doesn't affect pip efficiency, thats what i mean. So by bringing in the factor of new bites you are introducing a new subject that i wasnt exploring, mainly because this post is about pip efficiency, not the affects of pip efficiency, and the affects of bites.
To be honest i think talking about other factors is a good way to get to the bottom of finding out what foods are truly the best in everyway possible, i just think this is the wrong post for doing it, if you would like to discuss stuff like that with me id be happy to engage in a productive discussion, but this thread just isnt the one to be doing that in.

On the subject of pip efficiency specifically, it looks like most of your calculations assume the player's hunger bar has twenty points. Have you considered how the current age of the eater impacts the pip efficiency of different foods? For example, I imagine pip efficiency would be different if the person's hunger bar maxes out at 12 or 14, instead of twenty.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-19 00:38:21

DestinyCall wrote:

Crumpaloo wrote:
Booklat1 wrote:
but you are wrong, you said many times the number of bites doesn't affect pip efficiency and it does. Each bite has a minimum of one food, which directly correlates to a bigger pip efficiency when compared with the same amount of food. Not just smaller bites waste less, each bite has a cap that is also an element of pip efficiency. You saying numbebr of bites doesn't matter ignores that.

Pip efficiency is based off of pip value, which is based off of ONE bite of a food, not multiple, so when i say more bites doesn't affect pip efficiency, thats what i mean. So by bringing in the factor of new bites you are introducing a new subject that i wasnt exploring, mainly because this post is about pip efficiency, not the affects of pip efficiency, and the affects of bites.
To be honest i think talking about other factors is a good way to get to the bottom of finding out what foods are truly the best in everyway possible, i just think this is the wrong post for doing it, if you would like to discuss stuff like that with me id be happy to engage in a productive discussion, but this thread just isnt the one to be doing that in.
On the subject of pip efficiency specifically, it looks like most of your calculations assume the player's hunger bar has twenty points. Have you considered how the current age of the eater impacts the pip efficiency of different foods? For example, I imagine pip efficiency would be different if the person's hunger bar maxes out at 12 or 14, instead of twenty.

If you are younger or older then average you are more likely to waste more pips because of your limited amount of pip capacity, thats why noob kids that eat pies are more dangerous then a noob adult that eats them, so anyway to limit the amount of large pip foods a child can eat the more pips you would be saving. So by creating alot of pip effecient foods you decrease the likely-hood that a noob will eat a pie instead of a popcorn, and considering how children eat alot more then adults if were taking into account their smaller pip meter, the chance of them eatting a high value food that they shouldn't is increased exponentially.

I forget what age you are when you have 10 pips capacity on your pip meter but at that point any foods you eat would be half as pip efficient then if you had double the pip capacity obviously. This is why noob kids can be so detrimental to a village, their pip sound queues go off at a even faster rate then if they were a adult so they are more likely to eat high pip foods as a result.

If there were some way to make it so that you had to have a max pip meter capacity of 20 to access a certain room filled with high pip foods, that would save on pips tremendously, however something like that could get greifed pretty easy, maybe have a trusted baker operate a enclosed bakery with a wood box that would allow the baker to fill orders and receive ingredients

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-19 00:42:50)

DestinyCall · 2019-01-19 01:15:35

I suddenly have an intense irrational desire to open a fast food restaurant in the next decent sized village I am born into ...

So I have to ask, does food waste even matter? In the grand scheme of things, you could just ignore pip efficiency and feed your entire population on mutton pies. The pies are so cheap to produce and provide so many pips that everyone could eat two servings at a time without making them any worse than the alternative food options. As long as a few people were eating appropriately, you would even come out ahead of the game.

I was originally thinking that you should feed your population a variety of foods. Berries or popcorn for the young and the infirmed, mutton or rabbit pies for the travelling adults, maybe some turkey on special occassions. But why not just feed everyone pies? Pies and pies and then more pies. As far as the eye can see. Mutton pies, rabbit pies, even rabbit carrot pies, if you are feeling fancy.

Just not berry pies. Berry pies are the devil's work.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-19 01:20:00)

CrazyEddie · 2019-01-19 01:34:12

DestinyCall wrote:

So I have to ask, does food waste even matter?

No.

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-19 01:53:26

CrazyEddie wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
So I have to ask, does food waste even matter?
No.

Well you both were arguing with me in another post so to be honest i would of found it surprising if you didnt...

Booklat1 · 2019-01-19 02:00:18

but why make popcorns when it's cheaper to produce pies even with waste accounted?

shouldn't popcorn be yum only? popcorn is a maximum of 48 food for 1 bowl of water and one bowl of soil while mutton pies are 60 food for 0.25 water.

This is where pip efficiency shows just how much of a non-factor it is.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-19 02:11:24)

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-19 03:15:07

Booklat1 wrote:

but why make popcorns when it's cheaper to produce pies even with waste accounted?
shouldn't popcorn be yum only? popcorn is a maximum of 48 food for 1 bowl of water and one bowl of soil while mutton pies are 60 food for 0.25 water.
This is where pip efficiency shows just how much of a non-factor it is.

Mate i already explained if you wanna do that theres another thread for that, its not this one, if you wanna discuss JUST about what the title is go right ahead, but having told you and Alis about 100 times by now, and you seeming to still not get it, or if you do you dont care, at this point your just being an asshole.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-19 03:43:41)

Booklat1 · 2019-01-19 04:30:19

i dont care what you explained, you are spreading wrong information and I will call you out on that.

It's not worth making popcorn over pie like you keep saying. Pip efficiency is a tiny little metric you invented that has almost no aplicability, which my """""big""""" formula you ignored demonstrated. Yet, even when other variables are excluded and pies are shown to be better you insist the post is about pip efficiency. Except you claim popcorn is better than pies, which is absurd even if you compare single pie to single bowl of popcorn.

You're not defending your idea, you're defending the poor approach you've taken to it. The fact you don't realize pies and popcorn have the same minimum amount of food in case of maximum waste just show that, like destiny said "There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village."

You're way too over yourself claiming people should make popcorn, saying mutton pies are wasteful and overall failing to understand that even without costs its better to have 16 bites of 15 than 16 bites of 3, because you have to waste 12 pips per pie bite before a pie gets as bad as popcorn. Same number of bites, same cost, same amount of pips when eating, mutton pies win everytime. This post is irrelevant and pip efficiency too, which what we've been trying to politely tell you. We've shown you how better foods simply have more food per cost, show you math that allows you to compare foods at pretty much all costs and conditions you could desire and you insist on eating popcorn without making a single calculation on how much waste impacts overall food production (which you could do with my formula and again, ignoring costs).

I will not leave a thread defending a stupid idea. if you wanna have dellusional thoughts in your head it's up to you, here you will be confronted by the reaelity that you don't understand how food in this game works. Your point that foods with more pips waste more whn overeating is obvious and says little about how efficient a food is, which is why everyone here is telling you to go past that. But even worse, in examples like rabbit pie + berries versus rabbit berry pie, and popcorn versus mutton pies you go as far as saying that the less eficient food overal is more pip efficient, which isn't even true. berries + rabbit pies have a minimum of 6 x 1 + 4 x 1 food, berry rabbits have 4. Popcorn and pies have the same minimum food value of 4 x 1, but pies have to be wasted more than 3/4 before they give less food than popcorn. Like I said before, there is a minimum of one food per bite and that cannot be ignored when calculating the chance food will be wasted.

You think we are being assholes? I think this post is dumb as fuck and you refuse to accept it.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-19 04:33:03)

betame · 2019-01-19 04:33:46

I think people are getting confused because the Original Post doesn't make it super clear that costs are not factored in when you're ranking the foods.

A break from the arguing, I'd love a response.

betame wrote:

We're both interested in ranking foods based on their many factors. And you consider pip efficiency to be a very important one. You rightly keep it independent of all other factors so it boils down to simply how many pips the food gives per bite.
I think it'd help everyone understand your pip efficiency metric if you listed each pip value 20-3 and assigned a pip efficiency (which you defined as the average amount of the food that people waste by overeating) to each one. Maybe a bonus list for your combo food station ideas.

EDIT: adjusted formula from absorption to waste
Food wasted per bite when overeating = (- maximum food + average number of pips when eating + pips per bite) ~source

If this equation isn't it, could you give some numbers as to how pip efficient certain foods are? It'd help illustrate to us all what you truly mean by pip efficiency.

Crumpaloo wrote:

Pip efficiency is just defined as the less pips in one use of a food the less likely the pips from that food will be wasted, so when i say a food is more pip efficient, that means that its less wasteful.

I think some meaning got lost in communication because the word 'wasteful' carries a lot of definitions. -resource drain vs reducing their potential value.

I don't think you consider mutton pies a bad choice: (and you've yet to rank them in the OP)
are they pip in-efficient and therefore their potential value is reduced? yes. - the point of the post
are they a drain on resources? no.

Just like popcorn vs milk:
is popcorn more pip-efficient? yes, so it's ranked higher in the OP.
is milk more resource-efficient? yes, but its not the point of this thread.

Last edited by betame (2019-01-19 05:52:14)

Booklat1 · 2019-01-19 04:43:15

betame wrote:

Food wasted when overeating = Number of bites x (pips per bite - (- maximum food + average number of pips when eating + Number of pips) ~source

that's actually the average food absorved, the waste can be calculated by subtracting the average absorved from the maximum pips per food, as you may imagine.

Do you have a better way of defining waste mathematically betame? I used the positive distance from the maximum of 20 after accounting current pips + pip per bite, but i'm not really satisfied with it as it seems a bit clunky to me. You seem pretty good at math.

betame · 2019-01-19 04:50:31

Booklat1 wrote:

betame wrote:
Food wasted when overeating = Number of bites x (pips per bite - (- maximum food + average number of pips when eating + Number of pips) ~source

that's actually the average food absorved, the waste can be calculated by subtracting the average absorved from the maximum pips per food, as you may imagine.
Do you have a better way of defining waste mathematically betame? I used the positive distance from the maximum of 20 after accounting current pips + pip per bite, but i'm not really satisfied with it as it seems a bit clunky to me. You seem pretty good at math.

I'll think and respond on ur thread.

I think pip-efficiency, as Crumpaloo conceptualizes it here, is completely different. I leave it to him to define it with math here.

Booklat1 · 2019-01-19 04:56:16

Oh i'd like to see that an exact definition of this idea, sure will be more useful than arguing without it,

Crumpaloo · 2019-01-19 05:06:12

Booklat1 wrote:

i dont care what you explained, you are spreading wrong information and I will call you out on that.
It's not worth making popcorn over pie like you keep saying. Pip efficiency is a tiny little metric you invented that has almost no aplicability, which my """""big""""" formula you ignored demonstrated. Yet, even when other variables are excluded and pies are shown to be better you insist the post is about pip efficiency. Except you claim popcorn is better than pies, which is absurd even if you compare single pie to single bowl of popcorn.
You're not defending your idea, you're defending the poor approach you've taken to it. The fact you don't realize pies and popcorn have the same minimum amount of food in case of maximum waste just show that, like destiny said "There is a problem at the core of your food theory and the math related to mutton pies helps to illustrate it in a very clear way. I think you really need to take a step back and re-think your approach to pip efficiency if you want to identify which foods are really best for the village."

You're way too over yourself claiming people should make popcorn, saying mutton pies are wasteful and overall failing to understand that even without costs its better to have 16 bites of 15 than 16 bites of 3, because you have to waste 12 pips per pie bite before a pie gets as bad as popcorn. Same number of bites, same cost, same amount of pips when eating, mutton pies win everytime. This post is irrelevant and pip efficiency too, which what we've been trying to politely tell you. We've shown you how better foods simply have more food per cost, show you math that allows you to compare foods at pretty much all costs and conditions you could desire and you insist on eating popcorn without making a single calculation on how much waste impacts overall food production (which you could do with my formula and again, ignoring costs).
I will not leave a thread defending a stupid idea. if you wanna have dellusional thoughts in your head it's up to you, here you will be confronted by the reaelity that you don't understand how food in this game works. Your point that foods with more pips waste more whn overeating is obvious and says little about how efficient a food is, which is why everyone here is telling you to go past that. But even worse, in examples like rabbit pie + berries versus rabbit berry pie, and popcorn versus mutton pies you go as far as saying that the less eficient food overal is more pip efficient, which isn't even true. berries + rabbit pies have a minimum of 6 x 1 + 4 x 1 food, berry rabbits have 4. Popcorn and pies have the same minimum food value of 4 x 1, but pies have to be wasted more than 3/4 before they give less food than popcorn. Like I said before, there is a minimum of one food per bite and that cannot be ignored when calculating the chance food will be wasted.
You think we are being assholes? I think this post is dumb as fuck and you refuse to accept it.

Yeah i pretty much skipped this entire wall of text...

I already stated what my definition is and what i was talking about in my post and yet you continue to try to bring in new factors to dispute it when im talking about only the on factor in particular. The fact that ive had to tell you this numerous times tells me you dont care about what other people have to say so therfore right now i have no reason to give you the curtosy of being responded to as such. Mainly for the sole fact that if i did you would just ignore it like everything else ive already told you a dozen or so times. So its for that reason alone that ive decided to stop trying to explain myself to you. You being a deaf asshole hasn't gotten you no where and as such theres no reason to continue this conversation anymore. Not gonna be looking at or replying as thats gonna only instigate you so ima just call it quits trying to appeal to your faulty logic.

Last edited by Crumpaloo (2019-01-19 05:18:12)

Booklat1 · 2019-01-19 05:46:10

haha you're clearly incapable of defining mathetically your own principle

i'll watch betame much more politely destroy your arguments.

Last edited by Booklat1 (2019-01-19 05:47:00)

Alias · 2019-01-19 21:51:39

DestinyCall wrote:

I have yet to find a situation where potential waste is the MOST important difference between two related foods, because there are always more important differences that end up mattering a lot more. In fact, most of the time it doesn't matter at all.

My point from the start. Didn't expect that original thread - "advantage" of fewer pips food - would generate such debate and 3 more threads. And it all started with someone defending potatoes: that one of its advantages is that their bite gives only 6 pips so less waste I'm totally on the same page as Booklat1, betame, DestinyCall on all their points. After all it turned out its just very vocal one-man-minority with totally different understanding.
The only reason I kept posted is not to convince Crumpaloo any more, but for others reading it. So they have full info to decide what is correct and not to leave false impression that his many long posts make him right.

But by now looks like it has been done, all useful info has been salvaged and continuing will leave us with only toxic waste.

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#51 2019-01-18 23:36:32

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#52 2019-01-19 00:20:57

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#53 2019-01-19 00:38:21

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#54 2019-01-19 01:15:35

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#55 2019-01-19 01:34:12

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#56 2019-01-19 01:53:26

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#57 2019-01-19 02:00:18

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#58 2019-01-19 03:15:07

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#59 2019-01-19 04:30:19

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#60 2019-01-19 04:33:46

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#61 2019-01-19 04:43:15

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#62 2019-01-19 04:50:31

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#63 2019-01-19 04:56:16

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#64 2019-01-19 05:06:12

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#65 2019-01-19 05:46:10

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

#66 2019-01-19 21:51:39

Re: Pip Efficiency Pt.2

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