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I played with some numbers for my own amusement and I'll reproduce them here, in case anyone else likes food-based math as much as I do.
There are three bowl-based foods in the game that provide the same over-all pips. A bowl of green beans restores three pips per use and can be used four times. A bowl of saurkraut restores 6 pips and has two uses. A bowl of turkey broth restores 12 pips and has just one use. Each of these food items will give 12 pips if consumed entirely, but the green beans and saurkraut are more "pip efficient" (and less time efficient) since the pips are spread out across multiple interactions. So let's consider a few scenarios to see how this affects food consumption and potential for waste.
Scenario 1 - Adult at 2 pips. Needs 18 pips to reach max bar.
6 uses of green beans gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again immediately
3 uses of saurkraut gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (14 pips total) eating again would waste 6 pips.
Scenario 2 - Adult at 4 pips. Needs 16 pips to reach max bar
5 uses of green beans give 15 pips (19 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 8 pips
Scenario 3 - Adult at 6 pips. Needs 14 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans give 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 1 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 4 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 10 pips
Scenario 4 - Adult at 8 pips. Needs 12 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
1 use of turkey broth gives 12 pips (Maxed out).
So what does all that mean? Well, it means that it is harder to waste pips when eating green beans, since each bite is so small, but you have to eat twice as many times, compared with saurkraut, and as much as five or six times as much compared with broth, which can get pretty tedious. More uses per bowl gives you more control over how much you eat, so if getting to full hunger bar is very important to you, small bite foods might be a better choice to avoid waste.
But waste only happens if you eat a big bite when you are too full (or too young/old). With a pip value of 12, one bowl of turkey broth will not cause any waste if you wait until your bar is under half, as an adult. It only becomes a problem if you are greedily slurping down a second bowl of turkey water right away, instead of finding a smaller bite, or waiting until you are hungry enough for seconds.
If you are a young child or elder, then turkey broth might be a bad choice. You would not want to eat this food (if you have any better options) when your max bar is less than 14, since the extra pips will be lost. While green beans are a viable food source at ANY age, since they restore the lowest possible pip value. There is hardly any wasted pips with this food and it is easy to max out your bar by eating a bowl or bowl and a half. The same is true for other low pip value "small bite" foods, like gooseberry or popcorn. They are relatively low waste snack foods that are a very smart choice for children and the elderly, due to their shorter hunger bars.
So why not feed your entire population on popcorn, green beans and berries? You technically could do that, and I have occassionally seen berry towns, but it is not a smart idea. Mutton pies are a nearly free byproduct of composting, which is essential for continued production of all crops. So if you are properly maintaining a berry farm or green beans farm or corn farm, you will have plenty of wheat and mutton available for pies. All varieties of pie (except carrot) are "big bite" high pip value foods. And they a highly portable, multi-use, and space effiecient. If you must leave your village, taking a pie with you provides an important safety net, in case, you run low on forage in a large barren biome. You can travel further, explore deeper into hostile zones, and return safely, with a warm pie in your pack.
So why not just eat pies and ignore everything else? Because the majority of pies restore over half your hunger bar as an adult (13+ pips), so if you run out of low pip value food (berry bushes are empty, no popcorn, etc), then you will start to see a lot of food waste. Too many pips lost when children or elders eat a big bite of pie, instead of a smaller bite of broth or saurkraut or bread or popcorn. All foods require time, labour, and resources to produce. The best foods pay out a large pip value for a relatively low investment. Whole milk and mutton pies are probably the best, with berries and popcorn as good low-pip options. Food items that require more work, special tools, time-sensitive harvesting, or limited resources are less ideal choices, but might be worth the extra effort when the town is stable and thriving.
I don't think the answer to food waste is greater "pip efficiency". I think the better answer is education and food variety. Let people know that there are other options and encourage people to eat smarter, not harder. And make sure that there are always enough low AND high pip value foods available, so that desperate hungry people are not forced to make bad choices.
Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-01-17 02:22:48)
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I played with some numbers for my own amusement and I'll reproduce them here, in case anyone else likes food-based math as much as I do.
There are three bowl-based foods in the game that provide the same over-all pips. A bowl of green beans restores three pips per use and can be used four times. A bowl of saurkraut restores 6 pips and has two uses. A bowl of turkey broth restores 12 pips and has just one use. Each of these food items will give 12 pips if consumed entirely, but the green beans and saurkraut are more "pip efficient" (and less time efficient) since the pips are spread out across multiple interactions. So let's consider a few scenarios to see how this affects food consumption and potential for waste.
Scenario 1 - Adult at 2 pips. Needs 18 pips to reach max bar.
6 uses of green beans gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again immediately
3 uses of saurkraut gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (14 pips total) eating again would waste 6 pips.Scenario 2 - Adult at 4 pips. Needs 16 pips to reach max bar
5 uses of green beans give 15 pips (19 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 8 pipsScenario 3 - Adult at 6 pips. Needs 14 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans give 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 1 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 4 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 10 pipsScenario 4 - Adult at 8 pips. Needs 12 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
1 use of turkey broth gives 12 pips (Maxed out).So what does all that mean? Well, it means that it is harder to waste pips when eating green beans, since each bite is so small, but you have to eat twice as many times, compared with saurkraut, and as much as five or six times as much compared with broth, which can get pretty tedious. More uses per bowl gives you more control over how much you eat, so if getting to full hunger bar is very important to you, small bite foods might be a better choice to avoid waste.
But waste only happens if you eat a big bite when you are too full (or too young/old). With a pip value of 12, one bowl of turkey broth will not cause any waste if you wait until your bar is under half, as an adult. It only becomes a problem if you are greedily slurping down a second bowl of turkey water right away, instead of finding a smaller bite, or waiting until you are hungry enough for seconds.
If you are a young child or elder, then turkey broth might be a bad choice. You would not want to eat this food (if you have any better options) when your max bar is less than 14, since the extra pips will be lost. While green beans are a viable food source at ANY age, since they restore the lowest possible pip value. There is hardly any wasted pips with this food and it is easy to max out your bar by eating a bowl or bowl and a half. The same is true for other low pip value "small bite" foods, like gooseberry or popcorn. They are relatively low waste snack foods that are a very smart choice for children and the elderly, due to their shorter hunger bars.
So why not feed your entire population on popcorn, green beans and berries? You technically could do that, and I have occassionally seen berry towns, but it is not a smart idea. Mutton pies are a nearly free byproduct of composting, which is essential for continued production of all crops. So if you are properly maintaining a berry farm or green beans farm or corn farm, you will have plenty of wheat and mutton available for pies. All varieties of pie (except carrot) are "big bite" high pip value foods. And they a highly portable, multi-use, and space effiecient. If you must leave your village, taking a pie with you provides an important safety net, in case, you run low on forage in a large barren biome. You can travel further, explore deeper into hostile zones, and return safely, with a warm pie in your pack.
So why not just eat pies and ignore everything else? Because the majority of pies restore over half your hunger bar as an adult (13+ pips), so if you run out of low pip value food (berry bushes are empty, no popcorn, etc), then you will start to see a lot of food waste. Too many pips lost when children or elders eat a big bite of pie, instead of a smaller bite of broth or saurkraut or bread or popcorn.
I don't think the answer to food waste is greater "pip efficiency". I think the better answer is education and food variety. Let people know that there are other options and encourage people to eat smarter, not harder. And make sure that there are always enough low AND high pip value foods available, so that desperate hungry people are not forced to make bad choices.
If were gonna get into the real meta of this, then i gotta explain the meta of your average person, and the average person doesnt care about eating smarter. When it comes down to it people are gonna eat whatever is available, that being greenbeans or pies, and they arent gonna care what age they are, what they DO care about is getting a full hunger bar, so waste or not they are gonna get it. Its only when you create an option of a more pip efficent food that people will start to eat it and thus save the village as a whole pips. Very few people will actively try to create pip-efficeint food, and as a result the food options become automated with your two main food souces coming from pies and the berrys and carrots to make those pies. Although id have to say the worst thing about muttion pies is that their pip value is 15, usually people eat when their pip meter is at 2-4 this means that its highly likely that a player eating a mutton pie will still have a couple of pips empty afterwards, and since your average player isnt going to do math to figure out what food they should eat next not to waste, they are going to take a second bite and waste about 90% of that next bite of pie.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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If you intentionally eat a second bite of mutton pie, then you are a monster.
I refuse to believe that the "average" player is that stupid. I just refuse.
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If you intentionally eat a second bite of mutton pie, then you are a monster.
I refuse to believe that the "average" player is that stupid. I just refuse.
Its not that they are stupid, they just dont care, whos gonna try to do math in their head thinking of what foods in a certain order they should eat so they dont waste any pips? Not me, and if not me definitely not your average newbie, they would much rather take a second bite of a food thats already in their hand then put it down to go look for another one, and i cant even blame them.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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DestinyCall wrote:If you intentionally eat a second bite of mutton pie, then you are a monster.
I refuse to believe that the "average" player is that stupid. I just refuse.
Its not that they are stupid, they just dont care, whos gonna try to do math in their head thinking of what foods in a certain order they should eat so they dont waste any pips? Not me, and if not me definitely not your average newbie, they would much rather take a second bite of a food thats already in their hand then put it down to go look for another one, and i cant even blame them.
Do you take second bite of pie immediately?? Monster...
New players can care, longer playing players can "not-care", apparently. But this is a bit extreme. It doesn't require doing math to realize that this is bad and is direct disservice to yourself, unless you only run naked, without backup, whole life in the village.
For the turkey you said that no other variables but the pip value would be decreased, so if you still got the same amount of pips at the end of making the turkeys then like i said before yeah it would be worth it because it would, changing anything else but the value of the turkey would be changing another variable which is what you said you didnt want so idk what your trying to prove here?
But seriously trying to imply that i think the pip efficiency would outweight the cost of decreasing the amount of pips in a food makes no sense. Decreasing the pip value of ANY food outright and changing nothing else is just losing pips. Sure the food would be more efficent but it doesn't matter now that you have just decreased it from its original value. Same scenario with Jasons flat bonus, wasteful or not those are free potential pips, and no other factors being changed its hard to understand why you would try to assume that that would be a bad thing. I never thought it was, nor claimed it in the first place, you did, so trying to assume i believe that when you yourself made the point in the first place has no merit whatsoever.
You were the one who claimed popcorn was better than green beans, because of it's "pip efficiency" and to because of its double pip value per plant. Double.
Ok, so then just what exactly was your way of improving turkey? Right now its 6 bites x 19 pips. How do you make it better? What you said suggest that e.g. 6 bites x 15 would make it better.
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I played with some numbers for my own amusement and I'll reproduce them here, in case anyone else likes food-based math as much as I do.
There are three bowl-based foods in the game that provide the same over-all pips. A bowl of green beans restores three pips per use and can be used four times. A bowl of saurkraut restores 6 pips and has two uses. A bowl of turkey broth restores 12 pips and has just one use. Each of these food items will give 12 pips if consumed entirely, but the green beans and saurkraut are more "pip efficient" (and less time efficient) since the pips are spread out across multiple interactions. So let's consider a few scenarios to see how this affects food consumption and potential for waste.
Scenario 1 - Adult at 2 pips. Needs 18 pips to reach max bar.
6 uses of green beans gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again immediately
3 uses of saurkraut gives 18 pips (maxed out) cannot eat again
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (14 pips total) eating again would waste 6 pips.Scenario 2 - Adult at 4 pips. Needs 16 pips to reach max bar
5 uses of green beans give 15 pips (19 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 2 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (16 pips) eating again wastes 8 pipsScenario 3 - Adult at 6 pips. Needs 14 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans give 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 1 pips
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 4 pips
1 use of broth gives 12 pips (18 pips) eating again wastes 10 pipsScenario 4 - Adult at 8 pips. Needs 12 pips to reach max bar
4 uses of green beans gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
2 uses of saurkraut gives 12 pips. (Maxed out)
1 use of turkey broth gives 12 pips (Maxed out).So what does all that mean? Well, it means that it is harder to waste pips when eating green beans, since each bite is so small, but you have to eat twice as many times, compared with saurkraut, and as much as five or six times as much compared with broth, which can get pretty tedious. More uses per bowl gives you more control over how much you eat, so if getting to full hunger bar is very important to you, small bite foods might be a better choice to avoid waste.
But waste only happens if you eat a big bite when you are too full (or too young/old). With a pip value of 12, one bowl of turkey broth will not cause any waste if you wait until your bar is under half, as an adult. It only becomes a problem if you are greedily slurping down a second bowl of turkey water right away, instead of finding a smaller bite, or waiting until you are hungry enough for seconds.
If you are a young child or elder, then turkey broth might be a bad choice. You would not want to eat this food (if you have any better options) when your max bar is less than 14, since the extra pips will be lost. While green beans are a viable food source at ANY age, since they restore the lowest possible pip value. There is hardly any wasted pips with this food and it is easy to max out your bar by eating a bowl or bowl and a half. The same is true for other low pip value "small bite" foods, like gooseberry or popcorn. They are relatively low waste snack foods that are a very smart choice for children and the elderly, due to their shorter hunger bars.
So why not feed your entire population on popcorn, green beans and berries? You technically could do that, and I have occassionally seen berry towns, but it is not a smart idea. Mutton pies are a nearly free byproduct of composting, which is essential for continued production of all crops. So if you are properly maintaining a berry farm or green beans farm or corn farm, you will have plenty of wheat and mutton available for pies. All varieties of pie (except carrot) are "big bite" high pip value foods. And they a highly portable, multi-use, and space effiecient. If you must leave your village, taking a pie with you provides an important safety net, in case, you run low on forage in a large barren biome. You can travel further, explore deeper into hostile zones, and return safely, with a warm pie in your pack.
So why not just eat pies and ignore everything else? Because the majority of pies restore over half your hunger bar as an adult (13+ pips), so if you run out of low pip value food (berry bushes are empty, no popcorn, etc), then you will start to see a lot of food waste. Too many pips lost when children or elders eat a big bite of pie, instead of a smaller bite of broth or saurkraut or bread or popcorn. All foods require time, labour, and resources to produce. The best foods pay out a large pip value for a relatively low investment. Whole milk and mutton pies are probably the best, with berries and popcorn as good low-pip options. Food items that require more work, special tools, time-sensitive harvesting, or limited resources are less ideal choices, but might be worth the extra effort when the town is stable and thriving.
I don't think the answer to food waste is greater "pip efficiency". I think the better answer is education and food variety. Let people know that there are other options and encourage people to eat smarter, not harder. And make sure that there are always enough low AND high pip value foods available, so that desperate hungry people are not forced to make bad choices.
Thanks for this data. You included bite count on every case, because this is the key to this. You want more pips per bite, and more bites per food product. If all foods were one-bite, then always more total pips would mean better food. So the bite count is the factor that adds some dynamic.
Sadly the more bites food gives, usually sad side effect is decreasing pips per bite. Usually, but not always. If you can go for food with more bites but each bite gives still a lot then you do that. That's the case with milk and turkey. They are OP-ish because they give massive pips per bite and many bites (for milk at similar cost as food giving less bites and less per bite).
I totally agree on education part. It should also be education to produce food smarter not harder. If village has corn, cow and bucket available, they should know that however good and efficient popcorn is, it's just better to go for milk (unless starvation is imminent). Sure, milk is more wasteful, but that's mark of the most OP foods. Noone cares, because one sip of milk gives more that all popcorn from one corn. More bites + more pips per bite = better food. Not less pips per bite.
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Crumpaloo wrote:DestinyCall wrote:If you intentionally eat a second bite of mutton pie, then you are a monster.
I refuse to believe that the "average" player is that stupid. I just refuse.
Its not that they are stupid, they just dont care, whos gonna try to do math in their head thinking of what foods in a certain order they should eat so they dont waste any pips? Not me, and if not me definitely not your average newbie, they would much rather take a second bite of a food thats already in their hand then put it down to go look for another one, and i cant even blame them.
Do you take second bite of pie immediately?? Monster...
New players can care, longer playing players can "not-care", apparently. But this is a bit extreme. It doesn't require doing math to realize that this is bad and is direct disservice to yourself, unless you only run naked, without backup, whole life in the village.Crumpaloo wrote:For the turkey you said that no other variables but the pip value would be decreased, so if you still got the same amount of pips at the end of making the turkeys then like i said before yeah it would be worth it because it would, changing anything else but the value of the turkey would be changing another variable which is what you said you didnt want so idk what your trying to prove here?
But seriously trying to imply that i think the pip efficiency would outweight the cost of decreasing the amount of pips in a food makes no sense. Decreasing the pip value of ANY food outright and changing nothing else is just losing pips. Sure the food would be more efficent but it doesn't matter now that you have just decreased it from its original value. Same scenario with Jasons flat bonus, wasteful or not those are free potential pips, and no other factors being changed its hard to understand why you would try to assume that that would be a bad thing. I never thought it was, nor claimed it in the first place, you did, so trying to assume i believe that when you yourself made the point in the first place has no merit whatsoever.
You were the one who claimed popcorn was better than green beans, because of it's "pip efficiency" and to because of its double pip value per plant. Double.
Ok, so then just what exactly was your way of improving turkey? Right now its 6 bites x 19 pips. How do you make it better? What you said suggest that e.g. 6 bites x 15 would make it better.
Mutton pie = 15pips*4 bites average player eats food with 2-4 pips left
2-4 pips plus 15 pips = your average player having 1-3 pips still empty after eating a bite of pie
Same deal would apply if you changed turkey slice to 15 pips, it would actually be less pip efficient to have it at that pip value, pip values that are either 18, 16, or multipliers of the two i found to be the best. Pork tacos are actually pretty good its just getting the pork and corn tortillas takes so long its not worth it.
And if ive learned anything about this game, is that you dont assume people are gonna do what you intend with what you've made. You could make pies for people that are traveling hunting and mining, when in reality a 3 year old could grab one of your pies and take a bite out of it. Same idea with adults, they see that 1-3 pip left and all they can think about is getting it full, and whats a waste of 10+ pips when you can have a quick full pip meter? Sarcasm btw...
Anyways for the turkey if you really just wanna make turkey or any food better just make it either faster to produce, or increase the amount of pips you get for it. Free pips are free pips and less wasted time is time you can spend making more free pips so just do that.
Also why improve turkey specifically? Its definitely not one of the worst offenders of time wasted vs. pips gained, potatoes require tool usage for just 12 pips each, thats horrible.
1,280 pips just by Making Pork Tacos, Possible 2,500 pips just by hunting turkeys, and yet, somehow, yall still eating berries, bruh.
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