Welp, I just did some math

Lily · 2018-11-04 19:02:47

I don't know how you are counting distance but let's say 1 tile takes 1 second to cross. So 60 tiles in every direction would be 11,309 tiles. A tile is a second, so to search the entire area within one minute walking distance would take 11,309 seconds or 188.5 minutes. In other words it would take 4 characters searching in coordination, their entire life time to find all the iron within 1 minute walking distance.

Did you consider that? That a person can spend their entire life searching within one minute of their home, and they can't even cover a third of it. That is if they are running the entire time. If you stop to eat and stuff, then a person is lucky if they can cover a 6th of that area within their life time.

Of course people do have a slight advantage, since we know they spawn in rocky areas. So you don't necessarily have to visit every tile within one minute of your home. Also I am not sure how many tiles you can see at once since you do have a field of vision. However, I do think you are underestimating just how big of an area that is. Also for comparison sake, it would take a person 80 life times to run around the area of 5 minute walk from their home.

That is why you get these situations where it is fairly common for a child or someone to get lost and they live their entire life time without finding their way home even though it is right there, like a minute away. Especially if you run for a couple of minutes in a straight line. If that is straight line is slightly off because you ran around some trees or something, even going back in the same direction you came there is a high chance you never find your way back. People inherently know this, which is why we set home markers.

Booklat1 · 2018-11-04 19:56:06

^ you're assuming we have a single tile field of vision

Anshin · 2018-11-04 22:33:23

^ Ya, we can see three whole tiles north and south, so ha!

Lily · 2018-11-04 23:26:48

I did mention that there is a field of vision factor. However, I am not sure it makes much of a difference. If you run for a full minute in a straight line, the width of view you got isn't very big in comparison to that. I stand by it, that I don't think a person can explore a entire, one minute radius around their home even if the spent their entire life time running.

Elsayal · 2018-11-04 23:33:09

Morti wrote:

I have a better idea involving iron that will also make the game a little more interesting.
Have the wild animals get ornery at whoever is disturbing the ground. Pulling iron could attract nearby wolves and release nearby bears, who will also come to investigate the perpetrator.
Add a mountain lion to the game that actively hunts like the bear, but detects from a larger radius and has a dash like the boar, where he goes from slow and stalking at a distance, but his attacks are fast and long (5, 10, 15 meters) ranged. Give him evasion, so arrows don't always stick. Make it a group effort to hunt, like we had to do to remove sabertooth tigers before we could peacefully settle in any of their habitats.
Make wolves rally into packs and travel across the land together.
Cutting down swamp trees should have repercussions as well. Add a chance to release a jaguar when swamp trees are cut down.
Bobcats that stalk the prairies, randomly eating rabbits, but that get particularly aggressive when there are no rabbits. If a field of rabbit holes is left unculled, it spawns predators that, if left unchecked, would reach a balance between rabbit family holes, and predators. Remove the predators prey and they get increasingly aggressive over time.
Add gazelles, at zebras, add lions, add content that engages with content, make people excited to rally together; bows, knives, spears and shields in hand, to take on the wild and claim the lands holding resources.
Make the game more exciting over time, not less.
"Send the scout out on horseback, our resources are dwindling."
"The scout has returned!"
"I've discovered an iron node 200 meters northeast. It's surrounded by four bear caves, and a pack of wolves patrols the area. Gather sufficient food and weapons, we must take these lands, for our family!"
--
"The rabbit populations have grown exceedingly large. Dozens of holes with full families will soon attract predators."
"Help" "Pls" "My" "Mom" "Died" "Getn" "Rabs" "NE." "Bob" "Cats" "Atak" "Her." "Pls" "Help"
--
Come on Jason, stop treating a number tweak like 0.001 to 0.0005. Like a weekly update. Every keypress you make writing in this forum could have been a keypress into a new objects .txt file. Every hour you spend reading our comments could have been an hour spent drawing or roaring into a microphone.
Make us happy with new content and we'll make you happy with exciting new stories, new families, and new lives.
Sit down with your kids, watch a documentary, share a moment with them, find inspiration for a new idea and bring it into the game, for everyone to engage with.
Don't waste your time obsessing over the way milkweed, soil or iron works, only to find that 3 months later you've just made matters worse and now want to tweek it again. Don't play with the chess pieces on the board, make new ones. Playing with them is our job. Making them is yours.
Interview after interview, you are promising people weekly content added to the game. You sold the game to people with these statements. It's time to bunker down. 6 hours a day, 5 days a week, find what you want to add, decide on it's role, how we're going to interact with it (or it with us), draw it, give it life and set it loose.
This is your mason jar and we're your little caterpillar. Don't just put a leaf in here and watch us die. Move us to larger and larger terrariums. Forget the pet store; you are the factory, you are the industry, you can give us anything, from anywhere, from any time. Don't just leave us here in this mason jar with a leaf and a stick and expect to find a butterfly when you get home from school. We need a lot of nourishment, we need fresh air, we need the humidity and all the things that our ancestors adapted to so that we could become the creatures we are today.
Give us the world.
We're starving for it.
Give us the world!

This post is great.

Booklat1 · 2018-11-05 01:16:10

That is still 3x as many tiles seen every second by the logic lily applied.

Lily · 2018-11-06 06:04:13

Booklat1 wrote:

That is still 3x as many tiles seen every second by the logic lily applied.

Not necessarily. Since in my math I defined a tile as the amount of space you can run in one second. You can probably run from the top to the bottom of the screen in a second and it definitely doesn't take three. So it is probably a lot closer to a 1 tile view than a 3 tile view. Though for the sake of argument, even if we went with saying you can see 3x as much, you still couldn't see every location within 1 minute of your home in a single life time.

Last edited by Lily (2018-11-06 06:06:13)

Booklat1 · 2018-11-06 15:37:07

Lily wrote:

Booklat1 wrote:
That is still 3x as many tiles seen every second by the logic lily applied.
Not necessarily. Since in my math I defined a tile as the amount of space you can run in one second. You can probably run from the top to the bottom of the screen in a second and it definitely doesn't take three. So it is probably a lot closer to a 1 tile view than a 3 tile view. Though for the sake of argument, even if we went with saying you can see 3x as much, you still couldn't see every location within 1 minute of your home in a single life time.

You get to see 3x as much because whenever you walk in a single direction for every tile you walk 3 extra appear in front of you. in diagonals this is probably even more. I agree that jason underestimated some factors (did he take into account the time to haul back the iron?) and also the fact that cities need the first 3 irons really really fast sometimes (since you can run out of wood if you have no axe or whater if no shovel.

I did somem testing on iron gathering and, honestly, doesn't seem that much harder now. I even found two mines a tile away from each other few days ago.

Potjeh · 2018-11-07 01:27:32

Searching for loose iron is kinda tedious. IMO it'd be best if loose ore was removed and there were only veins, but you could mine 3-5 ore from a vein before it turned to hole and you needed a stanchion kit to continue mining. Stone pick to get started, which should obviously be a lot less durable than the steel pick.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-11-07 01:27:49)

Jk Howling · 2018-11-07 03:10:00

Potjeh wrote:

Searching for loose iron is kinda tedious. IMO it'd be best if loose ore was removed and there were only veins, but you could mine 3-5 ore from a vein before it turned to hole and you needed a stanchion kit to continue mining. Stone pick to get started, which should obviously be a lot less durable than the steel pick.

He'd have to make iron veins way more common than they are now in that case, alongside making it MINIMUM 5 iron pre-iron. Given the fact that you need 7 iron minimum in order to get the supplies to mine an iron vein, you'd still need at least two veins to gain the tech to mine them fully. Factor in early iron needs and...

Well.. Think about it like this:

- Your first 3 go towards the obvious: Hammer, Axe, Shovel. Three most important iron tools. You need the axe for firewood so you no longer have to range for miles to get branches for kindling to keep a fire going to forge. The shovel is your key to the compost era, which is where your civ finally steadies. Hammer is obvious.

- Your next 2 will likely go towards a hoe, so you can progress the farm, and a second shovel. Because whoops! the first one broke. Thanks Jason!

- Your next 6 now go towards tools for the iron vein. This isn't factoring in replacement tools, of course, which will probably come up- especially for shovels, and likely a hoe and/or axe. The tools you need aside from replacements are: Adze, Froe, Pickaxe, File, Chisel, Bowsaw. Without these, no stanchion kit, no iron vein.

- By that point.. what exactly do you need the iron vein for? A pair of shears? A couple knives? That takes about 4 iron, out of an average of 20. And the rest? Smelted down and stacked, until someone has a tool that needs to be replaced. Probably a lot of shovels, the occasional hoe or axe, the very rare froe or adze..

voy178 · 2018-11-07 10:02:59

Also, take into account that you get one steel ingot back after smelting two broken steel tools so the amount of steel and iron available all depends on management and recycling.

Elsayal · 2018-11-07 16:45:59

Lily wrote:

I don't know how you are counting distance but let's say 1 tile takes 1 second to cross. So 60 tiles in every direction would be 11,309 tiles. A tile is a second, so to search the entire area within one minute walking distance would take 11,309 seconds or 188.5 minutes. In other words it would take 4 characters searching in coordination, their entire life time to find all the iron within 1 minute walking distance.
...
Also I am not sure how many tiles you can see at once since you do have a field of vision.

Hi,

For me : 60 tiles in each direction make a square of 120 x 120 (or 121 by 121 but come on)

The field of vision is 11 tiles by 5. So each time you move one step North or South you see 11 new tiles, and East or West, 5 new tiles.

Now let say that the player is clever and do a systematical approach of it : moving first 115 tiles south (for a total of 120), then 11 tiles East, then 115 North and so on. He has to repeat this 11 times (since 11x11 > 120)

Then he goes : 115 (South) + 11 (East) x 11 times for a total of 126 x 11 = 1386 seconds or 23,1 min.

If moving one step really takes 1 second and no less.

Potjeh · 2018-11-07 17:05:36

Jk Howling wrote:

Potjeh wrote:
Searching for loose iron is kinda tedious. IMO it'd be best if loose ore was removed and there were only veins, but you could mine 3-5 ore from a vein before it turned to hole and you needed a stanchion kit to continue mining. Stone pick to get started, which should obviously be a lot less durable than the steel pick.
He'd have to make iron veins way more common than they are now in that case, alongside making it MINIMUM 5 iron pre-iron. Given the fact that you need 7 iron minimum in order to get the supplies to mine an iron vein, you'd still need at least two veins to gain the tech to mine them fully. Factor in early iron needs and...
Well.. Think about it like this:
- Your first 3 go towards the obvious: Hammer, Axe, Shovel. Three most important iron tools. You need the axe for firewood so you no longer have to range for miles to get branches for kindling to keep a fire going to forge. The shovel is your key to the compost era, which is where your civ finally steadies. Hammer is obvious.
- Your next 2 will likely go towards a hoe, so you can progress the farm, and a second shovel. Because whoops! the first one broke. Thanks Jason!
- Your next 6 now go towards tools for the iron vein. This isn't factoring in replacement tools, of course, which will probably come up- especially for shovels, and likely a hoe and/or axe. The tools you need aside from replacements are: Adze, Froe, Pickaxe, File, Chisel, Bowsaw. Without these, no stanchion kit, no iron vein.
- By that point.. what exactly do you need the iron vein for? A pair of shears? A couple knives? That takes about 4 iron, out of an average of 20. And the rest? Smelted down and stacked, until someone has a tool that needs to be replaced. Probably a lot of shovels, the occasional hoe or axe, the very rare froe or adze..

Metal comes a lot sooner than sheep. So shovel can be delayed, and you can go with pick for your third tool. Two veins should be enough to get you started, and stanchions should come in just as you need to start replacing shovels and hoes.

Booklat1 · 2018-11-08 00:16:27

^ the problems concerning what you said are
1 shovel also enables wells, which on occasion there is a need to rush.
2 you need sheep for soil sustainability. It's not impossible to manage enough soil runs to keep most pre-sheep villages going, but that tends to be lot of wasted work that doesn't help the town progress. There are also occasions when you'll run out of soil and absolutely need to start composting.

Left4twenty · 2018-11-08 03:36:38

What about something like a mix of the tiers, crafting and the timer? Adding at first the one item to make a middle stage between vein and the stanchioned mine, by adding a 'Mine support'. Each iron vein can be pickaxed to get iron ore, until it depletes, at which point it is an 'unstable vein', in danger of collapsing. But use of a mine support consumes the support, and transitions the mine to a "stabilizing mine', which after some time can be pickaxed again. the addition/upgrade of the stanchion kit could could remove pickaxe usage, extend uses before depletion, or decrease 'stabilizing' time, or any number of the aforementioned

Nika50501 · 2018-12-08 18:38:30

I think you are thinking too idealistically. Consider a following scenario (with expert players): Lets say you are born as an eve, you don't dedicate any time in crafting tools and advancing your civilization and instead try to use the least amount of resources to stay alive. You only eat berries from wild bushes and the only 2 items that you craft are the sharp stone and a basket. You keep exactly 2 female children and as soon as they come of age they go in a separate way from you. Once you have had your 2nd child you quit the game as to not waste too much food on yourself.

Theoretically the civilization above could last for an eternity, without using any iron or non-renewable resources whatsoever. However, we know in practice this won't happen simply because this is a game and players come here to have fun and not to simply stay alive (and probability). Same is true with iron, even though with high efficiency towns could potentially last for a long amount of time it is extremely unlikely that the average player will even try and make their iron consumption efficient. The main pressure in this game isn't resources- its the players. There could literally be a an eternal apple tree in the game that provides infinite food but someone would still end up chopping it down and you would still end up with a dead civ.

MultiLife · 2018-12-08 18:50:43

Nika50501 wrote:

Lets say you are born as an eve...
...
Once you have had your 2nd child you quit the game as to not waste too much food on yourself.

Ahh never ever kill yourself to save resources as an Eve! Live to 60 so you can be reborn to your camp/village!! You living to 60 is actually more important than your daughters; you can be reborn to that place limitless amount of times but your daughters only have one shot.
If your camp is in famine, run to a faraway berry bush when old and keep eating until the 60th year shoots you down. It's vital!

Nika50501 wrote:

Theoretically the civilization above could last for an eternity, without using any iron or non-renewable resources whatsoever. However, we know in practice this won't happen simply because this is a game and players come here to have fun and not to simply stay alive (and probability). Same is true with iron, even though with high efficiency towns could potentially last for a long amount of time it is extremely unlikely that the average player will even try and make their iron consumption efficient. The main pressure in this game isn't resources- its the players. There could literally be a an eternal apple tree in the game that provides infinite food but someone would still end up chopping it down and you would still end up with a dead civ.

This is true though. We limit ourselves already (killing, failing, bad organizing, accidental starving etc.), time zones limit us already, servers updating limit us already (wiping our stuff away) so really, making a tedious job even more tedious is just a bad move, to me (iron running). The bottleneck of pressuring civilization with iron just crashed on early towns (which always struggle no matter what), and not on developed cities where it should have.
I will repeat my same old whine; make getting iron challenging in some other way than nerfing numbers in RNG. This game is just too random to do it in this hasty manner. I want to have other challenges than "run further". I want to process ore, build mines around the places (not just where RNG gods want me to).
I'd rather have plentiful ore and lots of tool smithing than have low ore and nearly nonexistent tool smithing. I'd rather be smelting broken tools left and right than run around in a wolf infested, third huge badland with like one ore on the ground. Especially with the gosh darn jungles affecting the RNG roulette of biomes.

Last edited by MultiLife (2018-12-08 18:54:18)

Floofy · 2018-12-08 19:13:07

MultiLife wrote:

Ahh never ever kill yourself to save resources as an Eve! Live to 60 so you can be reborn to your camp/village!! You living to 60 is actually more important than your daughters; you can be reborn to that place limitless amount of times but your daughters only have one shot.
If your camp is in famine, run to a faraway berry bush when old and keep eating until the 60th year shoots you down. It's vital!

2 questions:

1) How do you actually come back to your camp as Eve that died of old age? I never managed to do it.

2) Doesn't it actually make sense to suicide as Eve at 40 year old so you can respawn as a baby? Lineage ban only kicks in after 30 minutes, so at 40 you haven't hit that yet.

wio · 2018-12-08 19:32:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

I randomly sampled some 5-minute walk radius squares on the map.
There are roughly 3000 pieces of iron ore in such a map square, and 300 iron veins.

You randomly sampled this? How many samples are we talking?

What about theoretical probability? For some radius walk distance, you will have T tiles.
If biomes are equiprobable, then T/7 tiles are Badlands biome tiles.

Suppose badlands spawn iron at rate I, and iron veins at rate V. Veins have X iron on average.

Then I think the amount of iron be: T/7 * (I + X * V)

Another thing to consider is that Eves do not want to settle down in badlands biomes. So T should be calculated after having subtracted out some inner radius to be fair.

jasonrohrer wrote:

At 40 average ore per vein, this is 15,000 total ore in a 5-minute walking radius.

Onetech lists the average of iron to be 21 per vein. What's going on here?

jasonrohrer wrote:

The long-term pressure is supposed to come from iron. Clearly, there's no pressure there. At all.

So is the goal here to ensure that civilizations do not last very long?
Since the apocalypse was not very popular, this is meant to keep civilizations in check?

I suppose it would encourage expert players do migrations.

Edit: Woah, I didn't know how old this post was. I guess increased iron scarcity update was something that happened a while ago. I was thinking that even the current rates of iron were going to be dropped.

Last edited by wio (2018-12-09 01:11:39)

MultiLife · 2018-12-08 19:41:54

Floofy wrote:

2 questions:
1) How do you actually come back to your camp as Eve that died of old age? I never managed to do it.
2) Doesn't it actually make sense to suicide as Eve at 40 year old so you can respawn as a baby? Lineage ban only kicks in after 30 minutes, so at 40 you haven't hit that yet.

1) With RNG luck. Home marker set, die to Old Age, spawn as Eve->chance to get back to your deteriorating camp.
2) I don't know if Eves get auto lineage ban or something, not sure on that, but Eve living to 60 is more valuable than getting to reborn maybe once or twice to the lineage. With 60 year old Eve deaths, you have a chance to get back anytime you roll an Eve life, whereas getting back to your lineage for another life grants you one or two more gos, if it can even happen. Never heard of an Eve dying at 40 or so and get back. Ever. Maybe the game counts it with 30 in game years of age? Or maybe Eves never have a chance anyways, maybe someone knows by looking into code?

karltown_veteran · 2018-12-09 14:10:53

True, hypothetically. But unless everyone is working constantly (they never do) and being responsible with materials, and unless their spot has all the necessary resources and there are virtually no fatal grievers (there always are) and not keeping all their babies (most everyone does); And the majority of people have played long enough to know how to work the complicated, painful technology that is so crucial to the town.
Theres a reason why towns can't get past ~35 generations.

wio · 2018-12-09 23:43:38

karltown_veteran wrote:

Theres a reason why towns can't get past ~35 generations.

What reason would that be?
Last few towns I lived that died off did so because no one was being born, and eventually there were no fertile women.

TheoneKooZ · 2018-12-10 06:39:55

Anyone mentioned how much iron you need for the new oil machinery? It takes quite a lot and usually requires 2 or 3 generations to build. Also, to my knowledge, most of the civilizations are doomed by lack of girls rng or people not maintaining the sheep/compost so once the pies start to run out and the berry bushes dry because of no soil, it is doomed unless a good player is in town and notice in time the dire need for compost and hopefully not all carrots have been eaten by that point! The best fix to iron if any should be made would be on the veins. I feel like it gives too many so .5x or .75x would be the best approach. The loose iron is always hard to find for eve camp for first tools even with mod it's very hard to get the first 6-9 iron without going out for 5 years+ just to bring 3.

lionon · 2018-12-10 06:51:46

All the times I've been in last or next to last generation it was due to following reasons (working in combination and ordered in importance)

Reason number 1: (US) Night shift. It's night not many players are online drastically reducing town population. These are the towns you are drowning in resources. Tons of food, tools, horses, clothes, backpacks, yet the next generation is very uncertain.

Reason number 2: Unlucky RNG on girls vs. boys. So you had 4 children. All of them boys -> game over.

Reason number 3: Noobiness. Sometimes the girls you have are just too inexperienced to survive and put the food that is all around in their mouth.

then there is a gab.

Reason number 4: Griefers. Only with the combination of the previous 3 they can push a town over the edge. So you got 1 woman ... and that gets murdered. "muhahahaha." *rolls eyes*. If the town would be lively with players averagely experienced the griefer couldn't bring it down. Even if he breaks the compost cycle people could eat from wild resources etc.

Then there is a hugh, hugh gap.

Reason none: Ressource scarcity of any kind. Never seen it happen on iron, only on food in new villages with nobody baking, people standing in the cold feeding children eating like crazy, etc. (Reason 3)

Thus increased iron scarcity did nothing to towns, but made eve camps harder. Well it's not actually hard to scavenge for iron (with the zoom mod that is). But many players die trying and it takes time while the camp would still need all human power for various other tasks.

I also agree to what has said previously the actually most scarce resource is time. You only got 60 minutes (well somewhat less given useless baby/granny/grandpa years) to accomplish anything.

EDIT: One thing I forgot, lag spikes, can also occasionally be a serious mass-killer.

Last edited by lionon (2018-12-10 09:02:34)

CrazyEddie · 2018-12-10 14:26:46

My observations match lionon's.

One Hour One Life Forums

#51 2018-11-04 19:02:47

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#52 2018-11-04 19:56:06

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#53 2018-11-04 22:33:23

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#54 2018-11-04 23:26:48

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#55 2018-11-04 23:33:09

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#56 2018-11-05 01:16:10

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#57 2018-11-06 06:04:13

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#58 2018-11-06 15:37:07

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#59 2018-11-07 01:27:32

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#60 2018-11-07 03:10:00

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#61 2018-11-07 10:02:59

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#62 2018-11-07 16:45:59

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#63 2018-11-07 17:05:36

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#64 2018-11-08 00:16:27

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#65 2018-11-08 03:36:38

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#66 2018-12-08 18:38:30

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#67 2018-12-08 18:50:43

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#68 2018-12-08 19:13:07

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#69 2018-12-08 19:32:15

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#70 2018-12-08 19:41:54

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#71 2018-12-09 14:10:53

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#72 2018-12-09 23:43:38

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#73 2018-12-10 06:39:55

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#74 2018-12-10 06:51:46

Re: Welp, I just did some math

#75 2018-12-10 14:26:46

Re: Welp, I just did some math

Board footer