A direction i'd like the game to take

Floofy · 2018-11-21 17:07:03

I feel like at the core, the idea behind the game looks like this:

Eat base resources (garlic, wild carrots, wild berries) until you get to farming. Die if those resources are depleted before you can reach farming.

Manage your farm using existing water until you can build wells. Die if all water is depleted before you can get shovels.

Manage your farm using soil deposits until you can build compost. Die if all soil is depleted before you can do compost.

Manage your wells and compost with tools using existing iron, until you can have a horse cart and get iron from much further away. Die if you run out of iron before this happens.

I see 3 issues right now:

1) There are ways to actually have a line last for a very long time without actually having to evolve the technology. A good example is to find a spot close to 10+ ponds, and live off omelettes. The game feels a bit too forgiving in that regard.

2) Most lines don't actually end because of the reasons stated above. They end because at some point in time, one generation get too few daughters, and the few ones they get die to dumb mistakes.

3) Once the civilization does reach top tier tech... well... the game is really easy.

Here is my idea to fix each 3 points:

1) Possibly have the timer on naturally existing resources increase with time. For example, eggs in ponds aren't supposed to be a source used over many generations. So i'd say every time an egg is picked, cooldown could be increased by 20%. Same thing for other natural ressources such as cactus fruits, bananas, etc. When your on gen 38 you should no longer be able to rely on existing cactus.

2) Ideas for this have already been suggested. I think its ideal for lines to end because they actually hit a real starvation, not because RNG gods wasn't with the tribe and gave them males only, or simply too few kids.

3) Quite simply, the dev needs to add new techs, but also new long term difficulties. Just as an example, clay plates and bowls could decay after a really long time (say 100 uses), but eventually in later tech you get access to glass plates and bowls which doesn't decay.

betame · 2018-11-21 19:20:32

Perfect description of the meta in four stages of need:
Farm
Wells
Compost
Transportation

Looking at it, I'm realizing each tech upgrade only takes one dedicated person.
By the math, this game is easy; it's the social element that makes it stand out.

For each topic, I'm with you. Plus my thoughts:
1) No civ stays low-tech because people get bored. People want to play with the environment by crafting new things.

2) RNG + Nocturnal Infertility, which used to be a bit worse before steam, I think.

3) I have no doubt he'll be pulling in more real-world challenges, I can only hope they're smart add more depth than just tedious work.

Last edited by betame (2018-11-21 19:21:14)

Dodge · 2018-11-21 19:42:38

Decaying bowls and plates doesnt make much sense, archeologist found 20'000 years old clay pots in south-east China

But i agree about the new tech and something that goes after iron, sheeps and deep wells, only problem right now is a village can thrive with these three things and just nerfing them without adding anything else is not very interesting

Imo there's different ways to go with this, for example iron could be used in new techs and these new techs would make new ressources like oil usable, and new farming could be based on oil, and by nerfing iron more or making it used more rapidly then a village that doesnt advance in tech would eventually die

Oil would only be the first step that would lead to other tech like electricity and electricity would lead to the next advancement etc, this model could be used almost indefinitly.

It basicly goes like this: if the village doesnt advance in tech it will die because the existing ressource at the current level of advancement will not be enough for the village to survive

Another way i can think of would be to add new dangers to the survival of a village that is not lack of existing ressources, for example a village cannot survive without wheat, because wheat straw is used to make compost (soil), so wheat could attract rats that can infect villagers with the plague and if the village doesnt advance in tech it will die from it

Rats are just an example and could be anything else, any danger or threat to the survival of a village is a motivation to advance in tech and use more ressources

Right now the villages die because of bad luck and not because the players fucked up, and the current spawn system make bell towers useless (you cant travel from a city to the other as they are way too far apart), the apocalypse is unused and villages get lost forever which gives no interest to build something meaningful (funny thing for a game about civilisation building)

Yes i know "if you want to build, you can go play minecraft" but why not have both? Eve spawns/small villages and big connected cities (that will eventually die out because of lack of ressources, maybe added challenges for big cities or why not an apocalypse)

It could even be as hard to live in big cities as it is in eve spawns for different reasons (content that could be added)

I think part of the reasons jason doesnt want big connected cities is because except if you build something then they can be boring from a survival point of view and that is true,

but this could be solved by adding new mechanics instead of having a "groundhog day" kind off thing where you start from the beginning all the time, dont get me wrong eve runs and small villages should always be a part of the game with new beginnings and new villages but there is no big civlisations which is weird for a game about civilisation building

lionon · 2018-11-22 06:59:36

Before adding too much new challenges... could we also leave some room for air maybe? I'd like to see people to build churches for example. Why? Because. They aren't needed for survival, but they look nice. Leave at least some room for self expression. At least on later stages of a civ.

Also another thing you often see at indy computer games.. the devs and hard core vets design the game for keeping the game challenging for them. While for the vast majority of people it's beyond doable anyway. Like for example one game in open beta right now, I love it, it actually keeps getting easier as it develops... Still when I watch people playing on twitch I see so many still struggeling. And they just even added an "even easier" mode, to keep the game accessible. Anyway, nothing stops for the cool guys that even with lots of experience wanting to have a challenge to have a "hardcore server" which is much more unforgiving.

Last edited by lionon (2018-11-22 08:03:45)

Booklat1 · 2018-11-22 10:53:20

lionon wrote:

Before adding too much new challenges... could we also leave some room for air maybe? I'd like to see people to build churches for example. Why? Because. They aren't needed for survival, but they look nice. Leave at least some room for self expression. At least on later stages of a civ.
Also another thing you often see at indy computer games.. the devs and hard core vets design the game for keeping the game challenging for them. While for the vast majority of people it's beyond doable anyway. Like for example one game in open beta right now, I love it, it actually keeps getting easier as it develops... Still when I watch people playing on twitch I see so many still struggeling. And they just even added an "even easier" mode, to keep the game accessible. Anyway, nothing stops for the cool guys that even with lots of experience wanting to have a challenge to have a "hardcore server" which is much more unforgiving.

This game breaks when it gets too easy, lionon. There's almost nothing to do if your village has all figured out. We've had people building libraries and churches, and sacrificial altars, but soon enough, when cities are this big, murder sprees will start happening and also A LOT of players feel even more lost than at small towns with still developing tech. These players end up hella bored because there's only so much fun you can have while chilling by the berries with your family and speaking through very limited character restrictions.

There ar still very easy and very overpowered things in ohol. Berry farming and making pies is something all newer or less virtuous players can do, if they learn to do it efficiently, even better. We still got milk, which isn't so easy to get much of, but can feed many people if managed right. Theres also stuff like planting milkweed, which also helps a lot and isn't hard to do (just boring).

My point is, before steam came all we had was "a room for air" for quite a while. Jungle and the new players just happened to turn the game upside down, but few weeks without major rehauls and we might be back at stability. Arguably a more well balanced stability than before the ones we had previously - since we now have so many other challenges.

lionon · 2018-11-22 11:33:20

I'm not saying it's way too hard, it must be made easier. But with the current player base it certainly isn't too easy also, so i'd caution to introduce new challenges, just because vets feel it's too easy for them... should the playbase mature and get bored, ok. Maybe it happens in the future, maybe it don't once the game is more popular and there is a constant flux of players coming in (and going out)...

Elsayal · 2018-11-22 12:11:51

Dodge wrote:

Decaying bowls and plates doesnt make much sense, archeologist found 20'000 years old clay pots in south-east China

Yes, and Eve doesn't exist, and babies dont pop out like this, you need a male and female.

But bowl and plate cand be destroy just by using them, sometime, they fall on the ground and broke too. So it's not decaying but nb of uses.

Floofy · 2018-11-22 17:48:32

lionon wrote:

I'm not saying it's way too hard, it must be made easier. But with the current player base it certainly isn't too easy also, so i'd caution to introduce new challenges, just because vets feel it's too easy for them... should the playbase mature and get bored, ok. Maybe it happens in the future, maybe it don't once the game is more popular and there is a constant flux of players coming in (and going out)...

Let's make it clear that the added "difficulty" should be for the advanced civs, not the primitive ones. The difficulty of setting up a new camps and reaching an advanced civ is plenty hard enough. The problem is its too easy once you did reach that advanced civ.

Also, this added difficulty needs to be compensated by point #2, where lineage should not end as easily if everything is going great in the town. No more getting all males, or getting very few babies.

lionon · 2018-11-22 20:44:06

Well I've been playing regularly for a week now and not seen a single bell tower.. or "heared" one.... Or an actual town (as in multiple finished buildings... ) So I've not seen this issue of late civ boredom yet.

I guess this may happen once the game advances into more advanced tech to do later on until you build the computer to answer the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. Or such.

Floofy · 2018-11-22 20:53:21

lionon wrote:

Well I've been playing regularly for a week now and not seen a single bell tower.. or "heared" one.... Or an actual town (as in multiple finished buildings... ) So I've not seen this issue of late civ boredom yet.
I guess this may happen once the game advances into more advanced tech to do later on until you build the computer to answer the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything. Or such.

I consider a civ as "advanced" once a pen has been made, there is plenty of deep wells, and you even have horse carts to easily get more iron. Essentially, the town has no issue self sustaining itself and the only thing that can stop it is too few girl births or extremely poor play (starving next to food... which actually happens a lot lol).

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#1 2018-11-21 17:07:03

A direction i'd like the game to take

#2 2018-11-21 19:20:32

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#3 2018-11-21 19:42:38

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#4 2018-11-22 06:59:36

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#5 2018-11-22 10:53:20

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#6 2018-11-22 11:33:20

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#7 2018-11-22 12:11:51

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#8 2018-11-22 17:48:32

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#9 2018-11-22 20:44:06

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

#10 2018-11-22 20:53:21

Re: A direction i'd like the game to take

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