Implementation plan for curse system

jasonrohrer · 2018-07-04 20:20:57

So that we're all on the same page and discussing the same thing, I'm starting a new thread.

Here's my current plan:

Curses are only individual-to-individual.
Curses only show up as a mark to the player that placed them (different color speech bubbles). They have no other effect. The server essentially ignores curses, but curse marks show up in the client of the player that placed them.
Blessings do nothing other than remove a mark that you placed on someone previously, and have no effect on marks placed on that same player by other players.
(MAYBE) There might be multiple levels of curses, so you can curse someone multiple times to mark them as badder and badder in your view (black/white speech, then black/red speech, etc), and likewise bless them multiple times to have them climb back up in your view.

Implementation details:

A global server tracking curse relationships between players that all servers access, using email addresses internally to track people.
Curse functionality in the client uses the speech interface, but is separate from speech. Instead, left arrows cycle through names/descriptions of people to curse (CURSE MY MOTHER SARAH or CURSE MY SECOND COUSIN), and right arrows to cycle through nearby people to bless. This will work regardless of age and speech-length limitations (kinda like setting a /filter for craft hints).
The client won't actually send the curse as speech, but in a separate message to the server cursing/blessing the user by ID, not name or description. No typos, etc.
The curse will happen silently server-side, and not as speech that others can see (though of course people can talk about cursing).
The effect of the curse will show up immediately to the player that places it, and go away immediately if that player blesses to remove it.
There may also be a CURSED thing in the mouse-over description of the person, in case they aren't speaking currently. Imagine YOUR CURSED SON. Or if multiple levels are used, then maybe TWICE CURSED or THRICE CURSED or FOUR TIMES CURSED.
All of this will also work for people who are recently deceased. Even if they're dead, you still get a chance to mark them for the future.
Beyond the curse number that you give various people, the current state of anonymity will be preserved. This is all happening server-side, and there's still no general way of tracking people across lives client-side.

jasonrohrer · 2018-07-04 20:27:38

I am a bit concerned about the effect of multiple levels of curses on anonymity. It seems like it could be used for some pretty fine-grained tracking (I give you six curses, and remember that you were the guy who did such and such). I put MAYBEs up there to emphasize my uncertainty.

Auner · 2018-07-04 20:38:45

I'm not mad at these rules- I think it solves a lot of voiced problems and leaves the right amount up to the players.

Tracking could be made harder by only being able to curse or bless them once in a life-time.

This way if someone harasses you multiple-life-times you'll know immediately, and you can't really mark someone immediately. But also it could be used as a way to personally high-light knowledge-able and hard-working players you've ran into.

Last edited by Auner (2018-07-04 20:39:37)

Kinrany · 2018-07-04 20:52:04

A client side mod could let players cooperate and ruin anonymity with fingerprinting.

Kinrany · 2018-07-04 20:55:09

Note that this system doesn't actually have anything to do with cursing. You're basically marking other players with two or more colors.

Might as well have a more general system where you can label other players with text?

zed · 2018-07-04 21:37:18

This seems a rather drastic change, breaking with a core part of the game.
Working out who you can trust, and how a society deals with those it
determines it can't, are interesting aspects of the game which this would
substantially neuter. I'd say other options should be explored before
resorting to it. The suggestions for allowing punishments less severe than
death seem worth trying - incapacitation and imprisonment, and perhaps the old
idea of preventing suicide so imprisonment can be a real punishment.

subria · 2018-07-04 21:50:17

Current plan will not help anything.
1. If community know about one person's crime in past, grifiers will think twice before they do something bad. If curses are only individual-to-individual, victim will be alone. We can not stop crime.
2. Grifier have influence on all people by destroy or kill. All villager have the right to know, not only someone saw what happen.
3. In real, see what we do with some kind of crime jeopardize community: paedophile. All people have the right to know where criminal live to protect our child.
4. No one must live all life with something bad what they did in past.

The plant in this topic (https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=2502) is good because we know who is crimial and criminal can change how all player see him.
The current plan will make criminal laugh at us.

Many new players will come. Many of them will be a victim. Some else will be a criminal. How we help them do not become a victim or a criminal? I think a warning in turtorial say "Do not be an asshole because anyone will know" will help.

Last edited by subria (2018-07-04 21:58:18)

forestglade · 2018-07-04 22:08:56

With two levels of cursing, you can stalk two people at once!

OR

You can set the first level of cursing as your friends, people you like playing with.
The second level of cursing to people you actually hate.

DJDisorder · 2018-07-04 22:28:37

Zed - "incapacitation and imprisonment, and perhaps the old
idea of preventing suicide so imprisonment can be a real punishment."

I love the idea of keeping some caught griefer in a cage next to where the babies campfire is.
'Who's that in the cage mom?'
'Oh just some asshole that stabbed your uncle.. We're force feeding him berries so he can't respawn. YOU best be a good boy now y'hear?'

Get them to mock him, throw water pouches and rotten fruit... Culture

Last edited by DJDisorder (2018-07-04 22:29:20)

jasonrohrer · 2018-07-04 22:38:33

Sheesh.... game design is hard!

But I love it.

Zed, I still worry that an hour isn't enough. Even if I implement imprisonment and suicide blocking, people can just walk away for the hour. In real life, your soul is imprisoned along with you. Reincarnation is a thing here, and we have to face that.

Let me lay out an alternative plan:

Everyone starts at 0 global curse points.
Everyone loses 10 global curse point an hour of play (time alive), stopping at 0.
Saying I CURSE YOU RON JEREMY adds +10 to both you and Ron Jeremy's global curse points.
Saying it a second time does nothing.
Ron Jeremy cursing you back does nothing.
Anyone who has >100 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with white text, seen by everyone.
Anyone who has >200 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with red text, seen by everyone.
This would be implemented separately per server and not tracked across server resets (at least for now, to keep the implementation quick an simple)

That's it, no blessings, nothing else.

+10 and >100 are used instead of +1 and >10 because it gives us some flexibility on "how hard" it is to curse someone. It could be +15 for you, +10 for them. Or +5 for you, +10 for them. How many people can you curse before you yourself become cursed? How many people can you safely curse per hour?

I could make it +34 for you, +10 for them. So then you'd really want to save it for the right occasions.

zennyrpg · 2018-07-04 22:38:42

forestglade wrote:

With two levels of cursing, you can stalk two people at once!
OR
You can set the first level of cursing as your friends, people you like playing with.
The second level of cursing to people you actually hate.

Yeah this is a good point. You are just categorizing people. What the categories mean is up to you.

I don't think there's enough people that marking a specific person wouldn't be useful. If someone plays a lot and you do too I bet you see each other more often than you realize. And hey, with this, you could find out.... I am liking this direction less and less.... seems like we are getting a weak "friends list" feature.

Edit: Jason beat me too it. Go for the new plan Jason. Its "good enough." We should see how it works in the wild.

Last edited by zennyrpg (2018-07-04 22:44:29)

ryanb · 2018-07-04 23:16:02

With the second design, would you be able to curse the same person again in another life?

It might be difficult to get 10+ people to participate in cursing a griefer to see the black speech bubble. However the numbers could always be adjusted.

Kinrany · 2018-07-04 23:18:03

jasonrohrer wrote:

Sheesh.... game design is hard!

:D

A more complicated alternative:
- any player can curse or bless any other player, it means their opinion of that other player is -1 or +1
- doing it again rewrites the previous value
- dying does not reset opinions
- karma is determined at birth
- karma equals the sum of opinions of all players that have been previously born in this family

The goal is to let families disagree without forcing players to curse/bless the same friend/enemy over and over, and without making it possible to use the system to label people.

forestglade · 2018-07-04 23:31:50

jasonrohrer wrote:

Sheesh.... game design is hard!.

But fun yeah? And pays the big bucks... Oh wait.

subria · 2018-07-04 23:39:49

jasonrohrer wrote:

Let me lay out an alternative plan:
Everyone starts at 0 global curse points.
Everyone loses 10 global curse point an hour of play (time alive), stopping at 0.
Saying I CURSE YOU RON JEREMY adds +10 to both you and Ron Jeremy's global curse points.
Saying it a second time does nothing.
Ron Jeremy cursing you back does nothing.
Anyone who has >100 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with white text, seen by everyone.
Anyone who has >200 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with red text, seen by everyone.
This would be implemented separately per server and not tracked across server resets (at least for now, to keep the implementation quick an simple)
That's it, no blessings, nothing else.

+10 and >100 are used instead of +1 and >10 because it gives us some flexibility on "how hard" it is to curse someone. It could be +15 for you, +10 for them. Or +5 for you, +10 for them. How many people can you curse before you yourself become cursed? How many people can you safely curse per hour?
I could make it +34 for you, +10 for them. So then you'd really want to save it for the right occasions.

I think

1. If a bad guy curse 10 other. He take 100 curse point. Other take 10 point/per guy. Bad guy become black. But he does not care. He reborn again and curse 10 man. He still a black guy but 10 man get 10 point again. After several game, he make every one become black guy like him. If every one is black, we can not know who is really bad.
So, i think we have only 3 curses per life. We have the first curse after 5 mins. Next after 25 min and next after 45. We only curse one man one time per game.
This will help we control population without blame from new born. Black baby can not curse us too soon.
After 5 mins, baby can work so baby have right to curse.
Three curse after 45 minutes give us time to agains bag guys before we too old.
2. Black guy can not curse.
3. If i curse Ron, add me 10 point curse and Ron 15 point. He can curse back. This will make criminal can not fight back good guy because he alone. He will take more curse point than others.

Last edited by subria (2018-07-05 00:02:04)

sc0rp · 2018-07-04 23:47:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Let me lay out an alternative plan:
Everyone starts at 0 global curse points.
Everyone loses 10 global curse point an hour of play (time alive), stopping at 0.
Saying I CURSE YOU RON JEREMY adds +10 to both you and Ron Jeremy's global curse points.
Saying it a second time does nothing.
Ron Jeremy cursing you back does nothing.
Anyone who has >100 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with white text, seen by everyone.
Anyone who has >200 points at the time of their birth has a black speech bubble with red text, seen by everyone.
This would be implemented separately per server and not tracked across server resets (at least for now, to keep the implementation quick an simple)

There is serious flaw it that. Getting over 100 points is basically death sentence with no way to recover. If one person will on average kill such kid 90% of time, having just three people around raises this probability to 99.9% (with independent random decisions prob. of survival is 0.1^3=0.001=0.1%). Getting full hour lived will be almost impossible. Even as an Eve, doing nothing wrong, you can be cursed by your kid to just reinforce curse.

jasonrohrer wrote:

That's it, no blessings, nothing else.

I think that blessing is necessary for non obvious cases. If somebody is cursing pein for making sheep pen out of graves, I want to be able to bless him, to undo the curse. But blessing shouldn't be used as general way to move karma, i.e. you shouldn't be able to buff your karma doing good deeds over multiple lifetimes just to go on free killing spree. Bless should be used only to cancel one curse done by somebody else in current lifetime.

jasonrohrer wrote:

+10 and >100 are used instead of +1 and >10 because it gives us some flexibility on "how hard" it is to curse someone. It could be +15 for you, +10 for them. Or +5 for you, +10 for them. How many people can you curse before you yourself become cursed? How many people can you safely curse per hour?
I could make it +34 for you, +10 for them. So then you'd really want to save it for the right occasions.

Or even higher. Being able to curse once per hour "for free" is way to frequent - it will be used for petty stuff. I would aim for once per day.

And don't nerf legitmate warfare plz. If somebody is raiding other town, horrible things can happen and everything should be allowed IMO. So you should be able to curse/bless only people in your own lineage.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-07-04 23:59:58)

forestglade · 2018-07-05 00:00:35

Maybe if you bless someone you still get penalized, so you're not throwing your curses and blessings around.

kubassa · 2018-07-05 00:09:07

This has to be the dumbest idea for this game. This shit will just be abused by the people on discord cursing as a group in return possibly griefing everyone that is not in discord. Good job giving them all the power. This system is going to be abused.

Why not just make it so if you kill someone you get a curse automatic? Then if people feel nice they can bless you.......... Sad to see you keep going further and further from what actually made this game fun in the beginning.

TheRedBug · 2018-07-05 00:16:24

Kubassa. Killing is needed. Killing isnt wrong in this game.
Do not penalise murders.

sc0rp · 2018-07-05 00:19:10

kubassa wrote:

This has to be the dumbest idea for this game. [...]

Let me just quote few insighfull posts made before by kubassa:

"Ya ok idiot......................
This has to be one of the stupidest things i have read. EVER."

"Who gives a fuck retard.....? Grow the fuck up and walk away till that person is not in your screen. You don't have to read or even converse with them. How dumb are you idiots? You idiots trigger yourself thinking you're the boss of peoples SPEECH......
GROW UP!!!!"

TheRedBug · 2018-07-05 00:26:11

I've looked at his history...

Lets just say this person needs stew in his life.

Kinrany · 2018-07-05 00:38:15

Some thoughts for global karma:
- the game isn't free, so new players can start with slightly positive karma
- the game isn't free, so it should be possible to recover from negative karma
- recovery shouldn't be automatic, to avoid cycling through multiple accounts
- it shouldn't be possible to hide a large amount of negative karma by saving or farming positive karma in advance

On another note, it would be nice to manipulate karma with in-game actions, not commands.

Uncle Gus · 2018-07-05 01:03:36

I think an individual labelling system is the safest, even if it's just a good dot and a bad dot. Then I can label a griefer who just stabbed me and when I see a bad labelled player, I can avoid them, kill them first, tell other people, etc.

Just because someone has been "cursed" by someone else, doesn't mean that the curse was warranted or that I agree with it, but if I can track my own labelling, then I know that a lablled player is someone I already identified as someone to avoid.

And vice versa, if I grow to trust another player and put a good dot on them, and they later tell me "I have a bad dot on that player" I'll probably believe them.

subria · 2018-07-05 01:10:14

Kinrany wrote:

Some thoughts for global karma:
- it shouldn't be possible to hide a large amount of negative karma by saving or farming positive karma in advance

This is a very good point. No blessing. Agree.

Stylingirl · 2018-07-05 02:13:14

I think there should be an indicator telling you if someone has cursed you and who, to prevent griefers cursing as babies, starving themselves, and repeating. At the very least it could let you be aware of bad babies and know not to feed them.

A general karma indicator might also be nice but I think if we don't know if we've been cursed, it paralyzes game play since people will abandon babies with black text that didn't even know they had black text.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-07-04 20:20:57

Implementation plan for curse system

#2 2018-07-04 20:27:38

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#3 2018-07-04 20:38:45

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#4 2018-07-04 20:52:04

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#5 2018-07-04 20:55:09

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#6 2018-07-04 21:37:18

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#7 2018-07-04 21:50:17

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#8 2018-07-04 22:08:56

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#9 2018-07-04 22:28:37

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#10 2018-07-04 22:38:33

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#11 2018-07-04 22:38:42

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#12 2018-07-04 23:16:02

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#13 2018-07-04 23:18:03

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#14 2018-07-04 23:31:50

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#15 2018-07-04 23:39:49

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#16 2018-07-04 23:47:52

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#17 2018-07-05 00:00:35

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#18 2018-07-05 00:09:07

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#19 2018-07-05 00:16:24

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#20 2018-07-05 00:19:10

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#21 2018-07-05 00:26:11

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#22 2018-07-05 00:38:15

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#23 2018-07-05 01:03:36

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#24 2018-07-05 01:10:14

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

#25 2018-07-05 02:13:14

Re: Implementation plan for curse system

Board footer