Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

Adriaan · 2018-07-02 19:05:34

Hey!

I just played through the tutorial, embarrassingly finishing it on the second try after starving the first time. I struggled with a few things long enough to take it to the forums:

1. Short Shaft + Rope does nothing, while Rope + Short Shaft creates the thing needed for an axe. Why can't A+B and B+A be the same?

2. Combining items seems fundamental to the game, but I don't quite understand why I would want to filter as opposed to just seeing the build tree up to a certain item. Filtering feels like a compromise between showing people everything or nothing. It feels like the game knows what I want to know, but is deliberately holding information back to make the game 'harder'. Is this true? I'm asking because in hearing about the game, it's biggest appeal to me was trying to build a society together with hundreds of strangers - not learning how to make rope and hatches and walls and farming in this specific game over and over again. I'm afraid I cannot make the kind of investment required to get to that 'building a society' part. Should I be worried?

The alternative I envision is to show players build trees for the objects they know or want to make, so that 'knowing' becomes less of a thing, and 'building' more. I don't know if others would agree?

Adriaan

LaughAtlantis · 2018-07-02 20:02:10

I too find #1 frustrating.

And my feedback on the second point as similar. If I filter, why am I not shown how to build that thing? Otherwise, we'll never build the societies we want.

People wind up being farming or cooking specialists because they can't take the time to learn animal husbandry or smithing or whatever... and those things are always needed in the earliest societies. And we aren't getting further, because people in bigger cities just get murdery.

TheRedBug · 2018-07-02 20:12:25

Welcome to the game kind sir

jasonrohrer · 2018-07-02 20:25:34

The crafting steps are supposed to more realistically capture the aesthetic of "making" something that other games.

This means that you cannot "use" a shaft on a rope.... what, hit the rope with the shaft?

No, you use the rope on the shaft, to tie the rope on there.

I didn't automatically make every transition reversible, because every action isn't reversible. Using an ax on a log? Yes. Using a log on an ax? No!

In cases that are actually reversible, the reverse transition does work. But those cases are pretty rare.

If you actually make something in real life, there is a lot of picking things up, putting them down, switching hands, etc. To tie a rope on the end of a stick in real life, you'd probably put the stick between your knees and then grab the rope with both hands.

I'm not going so far as to make you put the stick between your knees. But I want it to be a bit more detailed than tapping the rope with a stick and having the rope jump onto the stick.

The original version of the game, long ago, had no crafting hints at all. But trial and error certainly isn't interesting. Rock on milkweed? Nope. Rock on tree? Nope.

The hints are currently like one-step inspirations. I'm holding this stone in my hand... now what can I do with it? It doesn't tell you how to forge steel, top down, but it does give you some ideas about what you can do with this stone. This allows for a more experimental style of play, instead of a goal-oriented style of play. And it feels more like someone inventing something. If I actually showed you the tree for something like steel, it would be ridiculously complicated.

Along the way, while looking at the hints, you might see the mention of an item that you don't know how to make. Like, you see the hint "Hatchet plus branch," but you don't know how to make a hatchet at all.

The filter system allows you to temporarily get rid of irrelevant inspirations, and focus on things that will help you make a hatchet. But it still keeps everything bottom-up and experimental.

jasonrohrer · 2018-07-02 20:29:44

And one more thing:

Unlike other crafting games with arbitrary recipes, the recipes in this game are intuitive and step-by-step. This means that once you learn them, you pretty much never forget them.

Remembering the 3x3 grid patterns in Minecraft is neither intuitive nor step-by-step. Remembering the ingredient quantities in Don't Starve or Rust is neither intuitive nor step-by-step (3 stones plus 4 wood and 2 straw makes a hatchet or whatever).

But in OHOL, the crafting is a process. And you learn by doing that process. And learning by doing means the knowledge sticks.

You may look things up from time to time, but looking things up isn't a constant thing, especially for items you've made before in the past.

TheRedBug · 2018-07-02 20:35:24

Pistons jason? U like em?

West · 2018-07-02 20:57:36

I dream of building cars in OHOL, just imagine building the engine alone^^
Oh and I would love to choose between engine types, rotary, V, inline, boxer(flat). Propably will remain a dream tho
Sorry for offtopic

Kinrany · 2018-07-02 21:28:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

switching hands

YAHG · 2018-07-02 23:41:14

Kinrany wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
switching hands

So dirty..

zennyrpg · 2018-07-03 02:52:29

I agree with Jason on #1. Crafting in this game is really unique. It does "feel" like building/baking something.

On #2: I have never had enough time/food for this so called "experimental style of play." I've had exactly 2 lives where I wasn't constantly worried about my next meal. I'd be surprised if many people play that way. More power to them, whoever they are, it sounds hard as ****.

I, on the other hand, have onetech open on my phone at all times so I can search recipes as needed. I also play on a private server where I try out almost every recipe before I use it in game. I've smithed, maked stew, composted, baked pies, all before I was confident enough to do them in a real game. If I didn't have that private server I would have probably stopped playing by now just because the actual game is so freaking stressful. I don't think its balanced for an "experimental style of play."

Edit: In case anyone doesn't already know onetech is love onetech is life https://onetech.info/

Last edited by zennyrpg (2018-07-03 02:53:31)

Adriaan · 2018-07-03 10:09:35

I don't think I agree crafting something in the game feels like crafting something in real life. Putting objects on the floor feels clumsy. Switching between left and right mouse click feels clumsy. Forcing one object per grid cell adds to the clumsy feel. Lack of tactility and mouth sounds also add to it. On top of that, the lag (between clicking and the action executing) is quite noticeable, too - maybe has to do with me being in Amsterdam. All in all, a clumsy experience. Anyhow...

After playing over 20 lives in "the real game", I can say I have not learned a single thing on how to be self sustainable. One time I happened to spawn near a clay hole and was able to make a clay bowl and I felt really proud, but then immediately starved.

3. I have never had enough time to explore the environment, because I always starve in my walks.
4. I have not had enough time to actually scroll through the in-game hints on what to do with the objects. This is mostly because food is scarce.
5. Every time I manage to communicate with other players and ask them how I can help them, they tell me to do things I don't know how to do. And then I wander around, not knowing how to contribute, eating everyone's food, and eventually starve trying to do something.

It's a frustrating experience. I absolutely love the idea of this game, but the 'bottom line difficulty' is already extremely high. I need to dive into onetech.info to be able to play this game, regardless of the tutorials for the game's controls or not. I just hope that Jason understands this.

Lum · 2018-07-03 10:16:17

"Over 20 lives"

That probably explains it.

Adriaan · 2018-07-03 10:18:14

Lum wrote:

"Over 20 lives"
That probably explains it.

Elaborate? Is this a lot or not? I never expected to be such a waste of everyone's time and food so often.

West · 2018-07-03 11:30:56

20 lives are not much.
A good way to learn things is by watching people doing what you want to learn. You could also ask to be someones assistant. Most of the time people will give you simple tasks, but these tasks help in the long run and show you the basics.

tana · 2018-07-03 11:52:32

Adriaan wrote:

[...] mouth sounds [...]

what the hell are you talking about? the mouth sounds are part of what makes this game so great

as for the rest, i'm sorry but the fact that the game doesn't hold you by the hand and you really have to invest into it to get it is part if why it's so great, cause when you finally made it you really feel good about it (see now you know how to make a bowl and you'll never forget it)

Personally, i discovered the game through twitch, i was randomly browsing the game section when i saw this one, the name and the artwork of the thumbnail intrigued me, so i started to watch (it was IndieLeaf streaming if you want to know).. And oh boy, i got almost immediately hooked to it, even though i didn't actually played yet.

When i finally got the game, i had already several hours of gameplay watched, so i had a basic idea of what to do (and discovered a really nice community of streamers and watchers), i also had read the starting guide of the wiki (this should be seriously actualised).

So all the tools you need are there, just not in the game, but aside of it... If you can't take 5 min between lives to figure stuff out, then it's on you. Especially if you can come here and post to cry about the lack of hand holding in game.

Last edited by tana (2018-07-03 11:52:52)

Adriaan · 2018-07-03 12:16:48

Wow tana, calm down. I'm not 'crying on the forums'. I'm expressing the barriers I encounter that stop me from having a good time in the game, for Jason to think about, and for people here to discuss. Jason just added a tutorial, so he is clearly interested in making the game friendlier for newcomers.

TheRedBug · 2018-07-03 13:10:09

To be honest, dying from noobness is also part of the game.
Getting taught by other players is also part of the game.

How many times osmeone asked me how to make stew while making stew?
Everytime, i taught them.

It's hard to make. They were ultimately wastingnfood while learning something. But it's fine. You see, wasting food is 100% fine with me.

As long as you LEARN something. Even if it's something bening, such as how to make a hatchet. Even if you were not really useful in this life. As long as you bring the knowledge with you into your next life, i'll have a smile on my face.

Jason wants you to ask to other players to know stuff you don't. He wants to make human interactions REQUIRED in order to fully understand the game.

It's ok not to know. As long as you know you don't know, it's fine. Others knows. Ask around. Even if some people will be rude to you or abandon you if you have questions, keep asking around.

One day you'll find a good teacher. One day you will find. Good person that will answer you everything you wanna know.

One day. You will find a friend.

Adriaan · 2018-07-03 13:18:12

TheRedBug wrote:

You see, wasting food is 100% fine with me. As long as you LEARN something.

This is nice to hear. You think most people think about things this way?

TheRedBug · 2018-07-03 13:20:18

Absolutely not.
Some forget that they used to do the very same tho

Luniatji · 2018-07-03 13:36:37

I for one think exactly like that lol. I think its bad if you 'waste food' because you stand around doing nothing, but when you trying to learn something, it is great.

When I'm a mom I always try to help people, because everyone starts there. When I started I had watched a couple of video's so I had a basic idea of what I was doing, but I forgot to eat and stuff. In my first lives people were annoyed about that, but I didn't mind because I couldn't know everything, right? I recommend to read the wiki’s starting guide, play the tutorial.. but after that, it’s try and error.

And yes, first you will fail a lot. But the important thing is to try over and over again, because then you will find at one life “Hey, I did it! I have lived to 30/baked a pie/know how to farm!” and that is great, because then you could help. Not for other people, but for yourself. If you try and fail, I would never be mad. Maybe other people will, but they just forgot that they also started playing once. Let them talk and listen to the nice people!

TheRedBug · 2018-07-03 13:39:12

Luniatji, you deserve a fresh bowl of stew

YAHG · 2018-07-03 15:12:44

If people are pissed cause you are learning, maybe it is time to learn how to stab them?

zennyrpg · 2018-07-03 15:37:48

I have to agree with RedBug, I will always support players who want to learn, even if they are "wasting food."

I once taught a player how to fire pottery. Then I told him "remember to eat" and he starved like 10 seconds later I didn't judge, I just hope he had a good time.

Teaching and being taught is one of the most rewarding experiences in the game. But I don't think the game is balanced for it, I can only really teach in big cities.

---

Something (optional) you can try Adriaan is if you are born as a boy just run into the wilderness. You absolutely can live until 60. Pretend you are an eve and make pottery and get a small farm going. But... you have to get the knowledge of farming, firemaking, and pottery first. You could do that in game or you could use onetech like me. I guess this is a cop-out because I just said how rewarding learning/teaching is... but I just could not overcome the stress of the early game and not knowing what to do. So I spent some alone time in the woods learning before I rejoined society.

elpargo · 2018-07-10 03:07:26

really nice thread.... I have been trying to learn the other way around by reading and can't find much. I'll try to go into big cities and experiment as other suggest. Hope I find some of the great people answering here in game.

YAHG · 2018-07-10 03:12:36

elpargo wrote:

really nice thread.... I have been trying to learn the other way around by reading and can't find much. I'll try to go into big cities and experiment as other suggest. Hope I find some of the great people answering here in game.

Yay forum baby!

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2018-07-02 19:05:34

Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#2 2018-07-02 20:02:10

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#3 2018-07-02 20:12:25

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#4 2018-07-02 20:25:34

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#5 2018-07-02 20:29:44

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#6 2018-07-02 20:35:24

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#7 2018-07-02 20:57:36

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#8 2018-07-02 21:28:52

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#9 2018-07-02 23:41:14

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#10 2018-07-03 02:52:29

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#11 2018-07-03 10:09:35

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#12 2018-07-03 10:16:17

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#13 2018-07-03 10:18:14

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#14 2018-07-03 11:30:56

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#15 2018-07-03 11:52:32

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#16 2018-07-03 12:16:48

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#17 2018-07-03 13:10:09

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#18 2018-07-03 13:18:12

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#19 2018-07-03 13:20:18

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#20 2018-07-03 13:36:37

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#21 2018-07-03 13:39:12

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#22 2018-07-03 15:12:44

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#23 2018-07-03 15:37:48

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#24 2018-07-10 03:07:26

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

#25 2018-07-10 03:12:36

Re: Learning how to make items, or.... building a society?

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