Embracing baby suicide

InSpace · 2018-06-21 13:23:40

Glassius · 2018-06-21 20:50:25

The problem is easy to solve, or at least to minimize. Add sexual reproduction to the game.
1. First spawn Adam, them the next player on the server would be its Eve
2. Add hugging. If male and female hug each other, Eve starts a counter during which she is ready to gain a new player.

Simple. Children are now precious, because there are two steps to gain one. No gatling-child for new Eves in the wilderness, which ends with fertility ban when basic camp is established. And, because people need to hug each other, they need to build relations and communicate. Imagine consequences and complexity of behaviors possible with this one change. Real marriages, divorces, cheating, no roleplaying. It would also increase a value of a man, as they are also needed for procreation. And it ads very important thing: fathership.

This simple change would be a step to further tweakings:
1. Add hugs as the precondition for breastfeeding. So everybody can carry kids (and fertile woman can put baby away for a while and pick it right after without hunger fear), but only fertile woman will be rewarded with breastfeeding sound and animation, if they decide to click on carried kid again. No breastfeeding during running!
2. Add hugging for babies. Imagine two youngling giving each other warm over ashes, waiting for father to return, because mother just died!
2. Spawn options: as a couple or as twins.

EDIT
hugging suggestion

Last edited by Glassius (2018-06-21 21:27:11)

Kinrany · 2018-06-21 21:37:31

And, because people need to hug each other, they need to build relations and communicate.

Why?

Rebel · 2018-06-21 21:46:50

Pffft.. I think trying to control it is pointless. I like the way it is now but I also liked it when you spawned across the map.

Maybe being born into the longest family line available first? I hate the idea but it would stop intentional baby suicided, but would probs cause that family line to collapse.

The people who love playing the game will play anywhere. Babies who suicide won't have the experiences of what the game has to other.

Please don't lift the Ban, its the main cause of suicided being able to go back to the place where they were making a building or whatever. it makes it a solo game its not what this is about..

Putting a mad idea out there (crazy I know), how about you have to earn the right to spawn in long family lines.
EG your first life will be an eve, if you live to old age (50+) you can then spawn as baby of an eve, live to old age you can spawn as the 3rd gen etc etc.. notice is said CAN, if there are no 3rd gens you will spawn in a lower one. Every life you die between the ages of let's say 14 and 40, you then go down a generation.
I know this won't work and totally is against the scope of the game but it was fun thinking about it, kinda makes a leveling system and long lines would be more pro players and what not.

Don't change the males, they have their pros people just don't realize it.

Last edited by Rebel (2018-06-21 21:47:31)

Glassius · 2018-06-21 21:47:06

The idea is, without hugging (and maybe kissing next), there will be no more kids spawn to Eve. So you need two players of different sex to accept new player spawn.

Uncle Gus · 2018-06-21 22:00:39

I've made a simple mod where players can opt in and out of having babies.

Kinrany · 2018-06-21 22:19:50

Glassius wrote:

The idea is, without hugging (and maybe kissing next), there will be no more kids spawn to Eve. So you need two players of different sex to accept new player spawn.

Why would they need to build relationships and communicate? Just run around hugging everyone whenever you think the village needs more children. The effect would be mostly equal to introducing birth control.

YAHG · 2018-06-21 22:27:26

^Hippy <3

Glassius · 2018-06-22 07:13:17

Kinrany wrote:

Just run around hugging everyone whenever you think the village needs more children

See the first picture. Hugging must require acceptation of second player. You cannot just hug everyone.

I am sure there will be people hugging all the time. Which will create baby boom and mass starvation or famine. There will be couples starting reproduction lately after basic camp established, ending with 2 boys and argueing they did not start earlier. There young will be young females left alone as all their family is gone. There will be Lot and his daughters. There will be drama

Also, spawning as Adam and Eve will require basic cooperation. At least to not loose your partner!

Kinrany wrote:

The effect would be mostly equal to introducing birth control.

Much. Birth control is one side, female action. Sex needs 2 to accept it. Add genetics and you got marriages, cheating and biological fathers

Last edited by Glassius (2018-06-22 07:14:47)

Kinrany · 2018-06-23 17:05:46

See the first picture. Hugging must require acceptation of second player. You cannot just hug everyone.

I understand that, you still just hug everyone and hope someone hugs you back. Babies are all the same.

HumanMindFly · 2018-06-23 17:30:23

Acozi wrote:

I honestly cant remember the last time I was killed for being a boy. I'm sure it happened, but the mother never explicitly said so.
My main issue with males is there was a time or two where only men were left and I suicided because there was no point in continuing.
What if there was a craftable item only adult males could use to beckon eves that are nearby. Similar to the bell but could perhaps cause eves to be spawned nearby. Could break upon use maybe. This way two dudes alone in town could have a shot at resurrecting the town. The nearby eve could choose to start over where she is or search for the nearby town.
Maybe have it require the bones of a female or two.
Fertility statue perhaps?

omg, yes, something like this!! SO many times I have been in a village where there are no women left. Whenever this happens, I feel pretty bad about this game(as in, "why am i playing this game") and I just go kill myself on a rattlesnake. However, those feelings would likely not come up if I could build something that would drastically increase the chance of an eve spawning there. I wouldn't even care if the Eve spawned while I was alive or not, just knowing that it is likely someone will find my abandoned village is enough.

Styok · 2018-06-23 17:55:20

Rebel wrote:

Putting a mad idea out there (crazy I know), how about you have to earn the right to spawn in long family lines.
EG your first life will be an eve, if you live to old age (50+) you can then spawn as baby of an eve, live to old age you can spawn as the 3rd gen etc etc.. notice is said CAN, if there are no 3rd gens you will spawn in a lower one. Every life you die between the ages of let's say 14 and 40, you then go down a generation.
I know this won't work and totally is against the scope of the game but it was fun thinking about it, kinda makes a leveling system and long lines would be more pro players and what not.

Oooh, personally I kinda like this idea. There's definitely potential there!

sc0rp · 2018-06-23 18:07:20

Styok wrote:

Rebel wrote:
Putting a mad idea out there (crazy I know), how about you have to earn the right to spawn in long family lines.
EG your first life will be an eve, if you live to old age (50+) you can then spawn as baby of an eve, live to old age you can spawn as the 3rd gen etc etc.. notice is said CAN, if there are no 3rd gens you will spawn in a lower one. Every life you die between the ages of let's say 14 and 40, you then go down a generation.
I know this won't work and totally is against the scope of the game but it was fun thinking about it, kinda makes a leveling system and long lines would be more pro players and what not.
Oooh, personally I kinda like this idea. There's definitely potential there!

Totally awful idea. All towns will die off because no kids will be born. Even early game will suck. You spawn as Eve, find a nice spot, build a camp. No kids can be born yet as second gen, so you die alone. Another try, you don't find viable spot in time, so what now? Stand by the bush for 45 minutes, doing nothing, just not to lose you "priviledge" to spawn as 2nd gen? And what about new players? You never can be born into town. You are doomed to be eternal Eve, unless you learn everything on your own.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-23 18:10:56)

Styok · 2018-06-23 18:33:02

Hahaha oh, obviously you'd be able to spawn as second gen, that would be ridiculous otherwise.

Besides, I don't see you offering any suggestions. There absolutely needs to be something done about the way things are now, after all.
Playing in towns gets boring as shit pretty quickly, but anything else ends up being basically singleplayer because 9/10 eve-born babies promptly top themselves.

sc0rp · 2018-06-23 20:42:19

Styok wrote:

Hahaha oh, obviously you'd be able to spawn as second gen, that would be ridiculous otherwise.

Then the problem will be at third gen. Lineage ban is hitting towns hard already. You idea will obliterate villages before they have a chance to become towns.

Styok wrote:

Besides, I don't see you offering any suggestions.

I am, just not in this thread.
How to make bigger biomes interesting and towns different: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 329#p19329
New challenges in towns, instead of making basic stuff hard: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 240#p18240

Styok wrote:

There absolutely needs to be something done about the way things are now, after all.
Playing in towns gets boring as shit pretty quickly,

I had the most fun playing in towns. You can do so many different things there. Actually Eve runs (even successful ones) are way more boring - you always need to do nearly the same things.

Styok wrote:

but anything else ends up being basically singleplayer because 9/10 eve-born babies promptly top themselves.

I haven't seen 90% mortality rate for a long time. I usually end up with 3-5 alive kids. If everybody suicides on you, maybe you need to search for a problem (and solution) in a mirror?

What works for me.

How to keep alive first kid that is spawned as soon as you start as Eve? Quickly name yourself, name him, start temp running. About 50% of kids will stay with you seeing that. And that are usually more experienced players. If you find nice spot they will be old enough to help you immediately. Win-win. Noobs will suicide within first minute of running. Just pick up next born kid.

Any kid that is born while I already carry one - I don't even stop to say sorry. I feel bad about it, but if I stop temp running, I'll waste food and most likely run out of time to find nice spot. So just stopping to say SRY will cost my life and my other kid's life.

If I can't find good spot in 4-5 minutes I just give up, say "sry bad spawn" and suicide. Setting a camp in bad place will end up with everybody dying in 2-3 gens anyway. And searching longer than that will loose too many kids, so most likely no third gen at all.

Good spot: mandatory border of desert, so people can work and stay alive not burning through food at insane rate. Close ponds, close green biome with lots of food, fairly close tule/clay, fairly close rabbits, close cacti a big bonus.

Next step is to make few baskets, set up adobe kiln and few wet bowls. From then on I keep EVERY kid that is born. And routine with each one is pretty similar. Usually I immediately stop working, grab a kid and move to warm spot. Then introduce him/her to situation.
- Just started, good spot, wanna live?
- Y
- You are Martin
Green SW, water tule SE, rabbits N, cacti NE. If famine imminent, E is also good direction to go. Now I run around to show you.

Then I run around, showing things, with main focus being food - where, how far and how much is there (so if closest bushes are empty he knows exactly where to run and how much time he'll need).

- J O B?
- Take basket, go forage, stay alive, bring some food and seeds if you can, so I can finish setting up the farm. Rope and other usefull things are nice too.

Between kids I focus on setting up a dozen or two rows of planted and watered farm. Things like rope for fire bow, hatchet, etc. are usually brought by kids. There are bunch of kids that will die foraging, but that's good too. If they don't know how to forage, they are just too new to be able to help at this stage of camp anyway.

There was also very nice thread with good ideas about keeping kids as Eve alive here:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=1892

sc0rp · 2018-06-23 21:43:58

Rebel wrote:

And being an eve is the best way to learn,

Only basic stuff. How I'm supposed to learn how to make a cart, compost or knife as Eve?

Rebel wrote:

there is no point being born into a town with advanced stuff for you to learn when you will rarely see it

Towns are not meant to be a rare thing or are they?

Rebel wrote:

you are best learning start to finish.

You need to know some basic stuff, that's true. But later on order is completely irrelevant. You do what's necessary at the moment. I've made lots of buckets, deep wells, boxes and carts, but probably never made a froe or a saw myself. I could look it up, if I really needed, but it hasn't been necessary so far. I made a lot of compost, but never made a pen, etc.

Rebel wrote:

That's the whole point, right? you have to know how to live as an eve so you can progress from being and eve to the next stage and so on. The end game is ment to be a rare case where not many people know the recipes etc.. imagine it as a graph. knowledge of each "age" should be in a decreasing trend.

I disagree. You can be very productive member of town, without knowing how to make most of things there. That what's cool about specialization and cooperation. IRL you also use many many things successfully, without having a clue how to make them. You eat bread every day. Do you know how to bake it? You are using computer. Can you assemble one yourself? Do you know how to catch and perpare tuna fish? But you've eaten one.

Luniatji · 2018-06-23 22:42:51

What if we connect the baby suicide/abandonment with killing/grieving and lineage ban?

Let say, you spawn as baby girl and your mom runs away letting you die. The game looks to your mother to see why- is she starving? So yes, comes she back?
- If she comes back and raises you, she won't be punished and neither will you.
- But, she doesn't come back. Some other man/woman picks you up or feeds you berries, works well with adopting children. You don't die so you live until your old enough to feed yourself. The woman/man gives a more positive way to the lineage ban.

Your mom in the first example gets a ‘normal’ lineage ban from three hours, because she was starving and comes back after eating so she can raise you. Her lineage ban is normal because she first let you die.
If she was starving and eat/wasn’t starving but don’t come back and let you die, she would be getting an longer lineage ban because she was an “bad mother”.
If she let you die but someone else picks you ups and feed you until your grown, that person would be an lesser lineage ban, because he/she doesn’t have to feed you- it isn’t your mom after all- but did in anyway.

Example:

You are spawned as baby and your mom picks you up soon and raises you. Her lineage ban would be lesser than three hours. She names you and feeds you until your three years older or older.

In this case, her lineage ban would be less than three hours, because she is active in letting you grow and helping you to get an good start in life.

Example:

You would be born as eve and the came ‘paused’ your fertility until you have basic stuff (bow drill, kiln, axe, some bowls/plates) and then you became fertile. You got the same rules as above, but your penalty is less heavy than when you spawn into a city, because you didn’t have enough food to feed much children. So you get less children, say three, and have to raise them or get an penalty.

Then there is the baby suicide:

The baby spawns into an start place with an Eve, or into an small/big town. It depends on the food available if and how much your penalty would be; girls and boys alike.

Griever/murderer:

When you kill someone, the game sees why; was it an griever? Someone who killed before? An adult? A baby?

If you kill a griever/killer, you won’t have an penalty.

If you kill a baby/child/adult/old person who haven’t killed before and didn’t grief, you would have an penalty. The game looks to the person you kill. Persons above the fertility have the lowest penalty, fertile woman the most.

What would this penalty means? Than can be a couple of things:
- Maybe the change to be born into an bigger city would depend on this things. So that ‘good’ persons (mothers who raised their children, people who raise abandoned babies, the murderer of an killer, people who works hard, baby suicide because there’s a famine) have more change to be born there, while the ‘bad’ people have lesser change. (Baby abandonment while there is enough food, babies suicide without a ‘reason’, killers, grievers, bad mothers) have an less change to spawn into big cities.

- The lineage ban would depend on how ‘good’ or how ‘bad’ you are; say that the default is three hours, people who did it so-so would have three hours, people who would be bad would have an lineage ban of four or five hours, while people who are good for the community have a lineage ban of one or two hours.

sc0rp · 2018-06-24 00:10:01

Rebel wrote:

I am not saying you HAVE to know everything, I am not saying that being in a town without knowing how it was created is a bad thing, i am just saying you should know the steps to how the village was made.

What's wrong with learning this over time?

Rebel wrote:

You can surprisingly get far in the current stage of the game as an eve, I am sure I am not the only one who has managed to get compost going or steel tools as an eve,

I've seen steel tools maybe once or twice. With lucky spawn of very experienced players. Never seen sheep pen. Heck, even most villages don't have one.

Rebel wrote:

All I am saying is its EASIEST to learn the game to start as an eve and work your way up through the tech tree, it's less overwhelming and you can work at your on pace,

Anything but. Early on you're almost always on the brink of starvation. And it's usually so hectic, that nobody can teach you anything. Early camps are the most hostile places to learn new things that you have in the game.

Rebel wrote:

The game isn't about "going back to the old town you were in so you can complete that house" AND it isn't about "Finding the big towns so i can learn or see future tech", Its about starting in whatever condition you are put in and teching up from there.

Yes. I agree. And that's why I learned how to make buckets and deep wells, before making tools necessary for them. I just got born into situation where they were needed and tools already available. With your linear learning approach I should've wasted iron making duplicate tools with people starving left and right, due to lack of water.

Rebel wrote:

you should always know how to replace the tool you are using, or recreate something.

Society functions perfectly well with people having no clue how to recreate tools they are using. Somebody else does know. But in exchange they usually don't know how to make things I'm producing.

Rebel wrote:

Preventing New players from spawning into thriving villages would help the game alot. just think of it as a boot camp.

The most profound effect of that would be driving 90%+ of them away, before they learned enough to spawn into village. Retention rate is already pretty low as it is. You want to make it way worse.

Rebel wrote:

Now back to the baby suicide.
Why do babies kill themselves:
[...]

From my own experience and from what I'm reading on the forum, I guess the no. 1 resason is: I have enough Eve/Eve's child runs for today - they all look nearly the same, that's just boring.

Rebel wrote:

Maybe looking at Eve deaths EG how many players spawn as eves and suicide would give some info about how many players are cycling. as normally Eves who want to play normally survive a while but babys are less resistant.

The most frequent reason of Eve suicide for me is: can't find even minimally viable spot for camp after constantly running for couple minutes. Got tired after three runs without place to set up camp and don't wanna play Eve anymore today.

Rebel wrote:

The last few weeks baby suicided haven't been that bad, it's more that there are dumb children not knowing how to play.

And towns are best places for teaching them how to do stuff. Eve camps are the worst.

Rebel wrote:

you mentioned a spawn UI for babies to choice, please don't do that either.

That's not me.

Rebel wrote:

We just need to find a way that prevents players spawning at better places if they die early. you should have to work to get there, that was my general thought around my mentioned idea (it would give people a out of game reason, not to kill themselves and it would be a leveling system of sorts, which is what we are really playing for "To see that highest level")

Eve camps are the highest level of difficulty.

This will give people only a reason for quitting the game. That's BTW what lineage ban is achieving. I can only spawn as Eve or Eve's child now, but don't feel like it? Stop playing for a while.

Last edited by sc0rp (2018-06-24 00:13:59)

YAHG · 2018-06-24 05:12:22

For the record you BLEW this thread...

Title COULD have been

How I learned to stop worrying and love baby Suicide.

Luniatji · 2018-06-24 20:53:04

Well.. and then there is my post which is being ignored, lol!

I think that with the idea I had could also work. I have it better explained in my post before, but I will get an example here too.

In short: People who do good for the community- babies who suicide because of famine, the killer of griefers, baby abandon because there is a famine, people who food baby’s because they are abandoned without a famine, mothers who feed their baby’s without a famine, people who works hard his/her whole life- would get a ‘better’ grade for the next life, so that they can spawn easier in big towns and stuff.

While the people who did bad for community- baby suicide without famine, mothers who abandon babies without famine, griefers, killers without reason, food sponges, people who didn’t do anything- get an ‘bad’ grade, they would be harder to respawn in a good community.

With this grading system you could get the ‘good’ people on one side with positive things like getting more (or less?) children, born into good community, less spawn as eve/eve’s baby. The ‘bad’ people would get an larger change to spawn as eve/eve’s baby and in lesser communities because they did back. The more ‘good’ or ‘bad ‘ you was, the more influence you have in your next life; but without choosing a life yourself, you are being born random.

Kinrany · 2018-06-24 21:04:36

This has been discussed many times, grading systems are impossible to write down in enough detail, humans are too smart.

sc0rp · 2018-06-24 21:10:29

It's infeasible - you cannot automate it. There are no simple rules that decide whether some action is good or bad. Heck, even people in game frequently have different opinions. Like should we keep kids or not:
- Kill all new kids, famine is imminent.
- We're are low on females, I can go forage.
And what if then she doesn't go forage?
And what if then somebody brings a cartload of mutton?
And what if then we don't have fire for making pies?
And what...

YAHG · 2018-06-25 02:13:46

sc0rp wrote:

It's infeasible - you cannot automate it. There are no simple rules that decide whether some action is good or bad. Heck, even people in game frequently have different opinions. Like should we keep kids or not:
- Kill all new kids, famine is imminent.
- We're are low on females, I can go forage.
And what if then she doesn't go forage?
And what if then somebody brings a cartload of mutton?
And what if then we don't have fire for making pies?
And what...

But just imagine.. if Jason could automate ethics he would be so fucking famous!

FounderOne · 2018-06-25 13:30:05

I think a suicide button will set down the hurdle to suicide. I also suicide sometimes, mostly when my mum got another baby girl, but not always.

I always watch the situation if they really need me or not.

If I had a suicide button I would probatly do it more often since it is implemented in the game. So it feels more legit to suicide.

----------------------

I would force players in their situation.
For that you would give every item a value. So if you have a lot of items and food your lineage value is high. If you got nothing your lineage value is low.

So if you suicide or get abandoned or whatever happens you will spawn in a place that is the nearest at the lineage value then the place you died before.

So if you die in a big town you will spawn in a big town again. If you die as a kid of a eve you spawn again as a kid of a eve.

You get a new lineage value when you pass age 30.

So you would need to suicide a lot of times to get spawned in a town or you play untill 31 and suicide then, but at this point it is likely that you already had a baby or provided something else useful to the family line.

Suiciding to get into a big town would take way to long so you would probatly play untill 30.

------------------------------

I actually prefer to play as a male. I think spawning kids takes a lot of time of your life. Males got more time to work. That's I think the biggest plus. If you just got only girls in town the town will be starving faster then you can look.

JonySky · 2018-06-25 19:27:56

An idea to solve the civilizations that die only leaving men without sense of continuing with a civilization condemned to extinction ... imagine being able to create some kind of relic, monument, or temple to encourage the appearance of eves, at least the men who are left they can try something to reactivate civilization

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