a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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The basis of trade is private property, but in this game, what I see is a society that is close to communism, where people take what they need, work together, and use tools together, whether it's a cheaper basket, a bowl, or a rarer horse, or a more expensive engine, etc.
You might say that in the family unit, private property exists because property belongs to all family members, but it's ambiguous, it's a hint, but it's not very well implemented, because there's no long-term person or institution ,even if there are generations of leaders, competent or incompetent, to declare and preserve this privateness. (There are also private manifestations of individuals who seal off valuable supplies, such as delivery car and engines, but such people, usually do not get respect, at least I, in my opinion, they are pathetic, blocking the goods idle, so that future generations can only look out of the named-fence door but can not access and use it while the owner absence or unwilling to open the door. )
Yesterday, I was in a jungle family, and an unrelated foreigner came ride a horse with buckets of sulfurs, and he brought a piece of paper to communicate with us, but everyone stood there at a loss, and we didn't know what he was doing. All we saw is he kept picking up and putting down the paper which full of unread words over and over again. And, in order not to let the horse slip away, he had to ride the horse over and over again, making noise. The children became impatient, so they began to rob his barrel, and the women became impatient and began to rob his horse, and some people took up knives, regarded him as a griefer, and began to chase and want to kill him, until someone stepped forward to mediate, and people let him retrieve his empty carriage and leave.
He wanted to trade, but how sad it turned out.
What is his best practice? Instead of carrying supplies and waving peace letters through the crowd, he should quietly unloaded the supplies and then went around collecting and retrieving some of the supplies he wanted, such as rubber and sugarcane.In this way, did he trade? Yes he traded! Did he create chaos and vendetta? No! Is the supplies he brought worth taking? I don't know, but I don't think it's a matter of quantity, and I think any quantity he can take is fair, no matter how little gifts he bring. Because in the extreme cases, we always help others without asking for anything in return！ Helping each other is a great happy!
Don't you see Ohol as a more shared, just, and fraternal society than our real society? In my mind, it is the communist prospect that we have not yet realized.
Why do you want to pollute this game world with trading, money, these inferior means of supplementation (due to private possession, distrust of others) ? Are you so unimaginative that you can only think that our real-world solutions are the best?
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Trading is not the only way of communicate and collaborate! As well as private property!
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The economy in OHOL is based on shared benefit. Each village is one family with a common goal. We want to survive and grow and raise our kids. To reach that goal, we must rely on the work of past generations to build a solid foundation and the work of future generations to continue our legacy. There is no real need to compete with each other because your sisters and brothers want the same thing as you - to build a better village. Most conflict within the village arises from misunderstandings and lack of information or malicious intent rather than conflicting needs. And the same is true for different villages. We do not benefit from conflict - war is a lose-lose situation, because all villages are effectively part of the same family. When we fight, we are fighting ourselves. All players cycle through all villages, so our neighbors in this life will be our family in the next. When we kill each other, we are killing our past or future sisters and brothers. If we harm another village, we could be damaging our future home. Everyone is connected by the core rebirth mechanics in OHOL. Everyone is tied together by race restrictions. One village cannot survive alone - it must work together with other villages to continue existing.
One Hour One Life has a robust economy. But it isn't based on capitalism. Individual wealth is meaningless in this game. To be truly wealthy, you must share your resources with the village.
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Incidentally, OHOL does not run on true communism. It is more closely in line with some form of democratic socialism, rather than capitalism, but since most OHOL villages lack a central governing body, neither label really fits completely.
If anyone has heard these terms before, but doesn't really know what they mean or how the raw theory compares to modern economic realities, here are some definitions:
Pure communism is an economic, political, and social system in which most or all property and resources are collectively owned by a class-free society rather than by individual citizens. In theory, pure communism results in a society in which all people are equal and there is no need for money or the accumulation of individual wealth. There is no private ownership of economic resources, with a central government controlling all facets of production. Economic output is distributed according to the needs of the people. Social friction between different classes is eliminated, freeing each person to achieve his or her highest human potential.
Under pure communism, the central government provides the people with all basic necessities, such as food, housing, education, and medical care, thus allowing the people to share equally from the benefits of collective labor.
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Pure socialism is an economic system under which each individual—through a democratically elected government—is given an equal share of the four factors or economic production: labor, entrepreneurship, capital goods, and natural resources. In essence, socialism is based on the assumption that all people naturally want to cooperate, but are restrained from doing so by the competitive nature of capitalism.
Socialism is an economic system where everyone in society equally owns the factors of production. The ownership is acquired through a democratically elected government. It could also be a cooperative or public corporation in which everyone owns shares. As in a command economy, the socialist government employs centralized planning to allocate resources based on both the needs of individuals and society as a whole. Economic output is distributed according to each individual’s ability and level of contribution
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.histor … ifferences
Socialism vs Capitalism
There are many political and moral connotations wrapped up in the centuries-old, ongoing debate between statist thinkers and free-market thinkers. On a simplistic level, the differences between the types of economic systems are straightforward.
Some systems place a higher value on the rights of individual property owners, while others place a higher value on government oversight of production and distribution. In a nutshell, there are three overarching categories of economic systems: socialism, capitalism, and mixed economies.
Socialism
An economic system that's centrally planned with some degree of state or social control of production is called socialism. In extreme forms of this category, the government controls the output and prices of good and services. In the most extreme forms of the socialist system, decisions about how to distribute the goods and services are entirely made by the government.
In other words, under extreme socialism, people are solely reliant on the government for food, housing, income, and healthcare. North Korea—a state-run dictatorship—is a far-extreme example of a fully socialist system.
Capitalism
Capitalism is an economic system wherein private companies and individuals own property and capital goods. The fundamental basis of capitalism is that the market (or the forces influencing the market) determines prices and production in the economy.
In other words, the amount produced as well as the prices of goods and services are determined primarily by the supply and demand for those goods and services. As a result, capitalism is often referred to as a market economy, which is in stark contrast to a centrally planned economy by a government or command economy.
Pure capitalism—an extreme form of capitalism—is also known as laissez-faire capitalism. In pure capitalism, private property rights and freedom of contract are the dominant frameworks of production and trade. The laissez-faire economy evolves out of a system of respected private property rights.
Pure capitalism means that the less government involvement in the economy, the better off are its citizens and businesses, as well as the entire economy. Laissez-faire roughly translates from French to mean "let do" or "leave alone." In other words, there are no government controls, regulations, checks, and balances.
In this extreme form of capitalism, property owners—including the owners of machines, capital, and other input resources—may contract and trade with each other as they see fit, irrespective of the wants of government.
Mixed Economic System
A mixed economic system is an economy in which there exists private ownership by businesses and individuals (i.e., capitalism), but in which there is some degree of state involvement (i.e., socialism). In a mixed economy, the state allows varying degrees of freedom between producers and consumers.
A mixed economy places varying limits on property rights as well. Property owners are restricted with regard to how they exchange with one another. These restrictions come in many forms, such as minimum wage laws, tariffs, quotas, windfall taxes, license restrictions, prohibited products or contracts, direct public expropriation, anti-trust legislation, legal tender laws, subsidies, and eminent domain.
Nearly every country in the world has a mixed economy, including the United States. Even relatively free-market economies, such as Hong Kong or Australia, are still mixed. In Western democratic republics, property rights may be violated if the plurality of elected representatives deem that such violations are in the public's best interest.
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer … talism.asp
So basically, we don't own private property in this game, but we also don't have any government oversight. We share production more or less evenly, without any central authority rigidly enforcing the rules. OHOL isn't pure socialism or pure capitalism. Instead, it operates under a mixed economy that is mixed in a different way from modern society. It has a heavier dose of sharing and much less emphasis on personal property or accumulation of wealth.
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The basis of trade is private property
Wrong. The basis of trade is any economic exchange. The legal details of ownership are secondary. Communities can trade just as much as individuals. Every act of contribution is trade in some sense.
Jason is fairly capitalist, I believe. And he tried to add private property to the game with fences. But the thing is, this is a game. People do not put up with exploitation like in real life. So the capitalist can lay claim to whatever he wants, but he has no right, or legal recourse, to labor like in real life. So he can produce nothing in his 60 minutes by working his private property alone. No one will go work for him and his private property is worthless as a result. The community and its pooled resources are much more valuable.
Jason added trade to the game with biome restrictions. It's controversial, and probably rightfully so, but it does force "trade." At least so long as there are enough players on. Mostly this "trade" is people going to ask for resources from biome families, and they either have it or they don't. It's still an exchange, but due to the necessary nature of all families except one, again, it is in the interest of all to cooperate freely.
I think Jason actually dislikes the amount of cooperation that occurs in his game. But communalism is the natural form of organization for most of human history.
Last edited by Rookwood (2021-12-27 18:30:38)
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But communalism is the natural form of organization for most of human history.
I don't think so. With communalism, there's no incentive to trade between individuals, since trade gets motivated by inequality. Trade between individuals has existed throughout most of human history, which implies that inequality has existed, and thus communalism hasn't been the natural form of organization throughout most of human history.
I do agree though that private property isn't necessary to trade. One group can trade with another group. But, those groups don't have an interest to trade if they are equal. Both group needs to come as superior to the other group in terms of what they have or what they can do in some respect for them to have an interest to trade.
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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Private property does exist in OHOL. People own their backpacks, whatever other clothing they were, and their abilities.
Characters abilities are largely equivalent in OHOL over the course of their lives, and because of that near equivalence, there exists little motivation to trade. Characters have superficial differences in terms of what they look like. The sexes do differ, but those differences go one way only, making one sex equal to the other, but the other sex is superior in abilities, and thus trade isn't motivated by sexual differences. Adults and children differ, but again such inequality goes one way only instead of two way inequality. Races have a simplistic "can/can't do" sort of thing. The inequalities are dull, and make no sense depending on player population.
Trade also requires communication. The language barrier hurts the prospect of trade in OHOL leading to examples like the above, where people run around confused for a while instead of negotiating or exchanging things.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2021-12-27 19:52:22)
Danish Clinch.
Longtime tutorial player.
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as I mentioned in another thread, if you need rubber, run into a wolf, /die until you are brown, then get your latex and palm and drop it off at whatever family you are playing at. Then run into another wolf, /die until you are black and get your sulfur. You won't be able to speak their language but you could suicide again to get born back. Unfortunately, death by wolf typically locks you out of a fam for next birth but you could be born white for communication if you want.
You can leverage birth and greater map knowledge to overcome resource restrictions.
Perpetual Bone Motion:
https://i.ibb.co/hfxbrLs/screen00055.png
Sprinkler Super Powers:
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 37#p107137
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OHOL before leaders was closest to anarcho communism since there is no coercive state and workers have personal property, (what we are actively using and carrying), without private property. Anarcho communists also believed an individuals products are ultimately dependent on the generations of labor beforehand, which kinda reflects how bad it feels to see high tech hoarded away when it is ultimately a group achievement.
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About 90% of the people I've dealt with trying to trade....
Come to town, ask for something they need.
Fully not knowing that if they want rubber, they need to at very least have buckets!! (Browns never have any buckets because of this)
Now this is damn near 90% of the time.
Now lets just forget that this isn't trading if you come with absolutly nothing to TRADE!
Work for trade, that works, but it seems like these people trying to trade don't understand what trading entailed.
This is sad, stop doing this.
I will end this rant with what I tell everyone.
Make buckets, not floors.
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