Never ending water (sprinklers continued)

forman · 2021-08-06 14:47:26

As a general direction and addendum -- what we should be doing is draining shallow wells and then fencing them in.

As I recall, shallow wells recover water pretty decently.

If a new city was started with a committed sprinkler farm, the well would last at very least ten times what they do now -- theoretically forever.

I imagine a fence around a well and then a couple cisterns, probably fenced in too, and then a few buckets outside -- just like what we do with tanks of oil.

One thing I will say is that shallow wells revert back to untapped springs when a family dies so this also means that a city would keep getting a restart each family.

Far as sprinkler systems -- they are really hard to make. A large one would be the equivalent of two-to-three engines.

They require an engine to work (same with plow) and a truck to move because they take a lot of space (possibly two truck loads)

If fenced in wells seems extreme, consider that with a sprinkler farm, one foraged bucket of pond water would water the entire farm eight times iirc.

Even in the case of an oil well, each tank of oil would last 10x longer at least -- ginger could literally go on for weeks.

Laggy · 2021-08-06 23:14:23

Did you forget that about iron? Without iron a town is useless. Also hate to break your shallow well bubble, but that shallow well only has like four buckets of water. That's nothing.

DestinyCall · 2021-08-07 00:37:54

Four buckets of water is forty bowls of water. That's not nothing.

It takes one bowl to run the sprinkler system, so that's forty uses before the will goes dry. The dry shallow well replenishes one use every 36 minutes. So if you pull water out of the well into a cistern to stockpile overflow, you could easily keep an extensive farm setup watered from one shallow well.

The bigger problem is that this covers crops nicely, but what about the various other activities that rely on access to water, like cooking, composting, and advanced smithing,

Building an engine takes a god awful amount of water. Any crafting that involves the newcomen engine does. Soup and bread dough also cost a decent amount, based on volume produced. You could go out to gather from ponds, but that is only a bandaid.

Look at all the things that require bowl of water:

https://onetech.info/382-Bowl-of-Water-contFoodDish

It is not just crops and farming. I am not saying it can't be done, but restricting water access would hit the village quite hard, even if the farms were doing great.

Gremlynn · 2021-08-07 05:51:22

Im with laggy on this one. Cycling a well in the early stage while killing of fams is one of the worst strats I've heard of in this game. Sure it may work on low pop but it does not and will not translate towards the demand of the main server. Think about how much time four buckets of water is worth on the main server. Maybe 30 minutes to an hour at best? So we're talking about killing off fams when they hit that stage and recycling the same town over and over again for that much water? Think about how far that would push fams west while putting a demand on returning east for those four buckets of water. That said shallow wells have a fixed cycle pattern while deep wells do not. Deep wells will cycle at specific stages while staying static on others. That is a far better strat in that regard, but at the same time, still very weak in comparison to late game kerosene rush.

Works great for low demand environments like low pop servers but the more people you add the more chaotic and violent resource consumption becomes.

The true meta in this regard would be to have every player agree to not render areas east o west of a town, specifically snow biomes. That way those tarry spotlls could cull and oil would be limitless for said "promised land". But most people are too chaotic for that kind of order so its stupid to expect those kinds of results. Just like it is to expect people to do this kind of stuff for 4 buckets of water..

If they cant even do it for immortality why would they do it for the crust off of a sandwich?

Last edited by Gremlynn (2021-08-07 20:41:00)

forman · 2021-08-07 10:13:50

Laggy wrote:

shallow well only has like four buckets of water

I've never actually counted this. Generally, I think shallow well lasts at least 1 generation so I think it's more than four.

DestinyCall wrote:

Look at all the things that require bowl of water:

This is also true but mathematically it might be more efficient to berry munch if you can water say 100 bushes with one bowl.

I'm not saying this is true but it's possible. I'd have to work out the math but the fact is sprinklers are so RIDICULOUSLY efficient that all strategies should revolve around them.

Gremlynn wrote:

The true meta in this regard would be to have every player agree to not render areas east o west of a town, specifically snow biomes.

Destiny Mentioned the meta on the other thread. People don't know how to use sprinklers.

The fact is, most players also don't know how to build 3x3 farms properly, or 7x7 buildings or double gated property fences, coals rooms, track kits etc

There is a certain 'culture' -- a meta for patterns of doing things that have worked the best so far. A good example is the potato oven in the farm.

This is, in fact, the most interesting part of the game to me, to be honest. But if people can learn 3x3 farms, they can learn how to use sprinklers, it's really not that complicated.

Gremlynn wrote:

late game kerosene rush.

This strategy, like all strategies, is broken. This is mainly because the game imo the game is incomplete. What I am proposing is a strategy entirely based on the fact that sprinklers offer unlimited gain relative to cost.

What this means is one bowl of water becomes continually more valuable relative to the amount of steel invested -- WITH NO LIMIT.

In most games, this would be considered an exploit.

The strategy is or ought to be 'continually expand the sprinkler system from town to town until it's too big to be moved'

One bowl of water could be used to water 500 corn sprouts which can all be tilled in lines with a plow making it require no soil or steel for upkeep.

Turning one bowl of water into thousands of corn will provide more net food per water unit, I expect, then pies and yumming and possibly even crave chains.

One town could last in one spot for maybe 20-30x longer than it does now.

If there ever were more complex game mechanics, like robots (as shown in Jason's intro video) it would require that towns last longer.

I think it's possible that Jason provide plow/sprinkler mechanics so that towns COULD last longer, such that more complex game elements would be possible.

The sprinkler idea was ultimately rejected by the player base which is possibly why Jason lost faith in the project and stopped updating.

forman · 2021-08-07 10:26:05

One more thing, far as corn goes, (and I'm pretty sure someone mentioned this before)

corn --> fresh corn
corn --> popcorn
corn --> goose --> omelets, cooked goose
corn --> cow --> skim milk, whole milk
corn --> pig --> carnitas

That is 7 types of food that require no water to cook just from corn.

Cooked mutton also doesn't take water to cook, but does require soil.

Naturally, all of the vegetables can be eaten raw also.

Laggy · 2021-08-09 13:41:01

forman wrote:

Laggy wrote:
shallow well only has like four buckets of water
I've never actually counted this. Generally, I think shallow well lasts at least 1 generation so I think it's more than four.

It was about 4 buckets before the banding update, but Jason changes everything at the slightest whim.

It is sad that this game has been around for such a long time, yet, there is no information.

Think that whomever owns oholwiki gave up after they figured out that Jason was gonna change everything constantly and it was why too much work.

Here is a better idea, instead of keeping a shallow well, go deep. Deep well will give you like six cisterns, and last time I checked it will turn to a spring after the family dies.

Both of these aren't the greatest ideas. Because once the well returns to being a spring, someone could just make a well close and that spring becomes a dry spring and the town is dead.

fug · 2021-08-09 18:38:18

You can look at onetech to see the information. A shallow well averages 134 bowls of water and a deep well on average is 33 buckets or 330 water. Your best bet is to just get someone on phex chat to go halfsies on rubber production one life and just not worry about water until the newcommen goes dry.

Laggy · 2021-08-09 23:30:03

I agree, newcomens are the way to go. Tires are easy to make, esp. now that the low population is at 30.

The main problem I see in newcomen towns is the lack of buckets, and the lack of people who can or are willing to operate the pump.

80-90% of the playerbase is utterly useless nowadays.

Last edited by Laggy (2021-08-09 23:45:48)

Spoonwood · 2021-08-10 03:53:34

forman wrote:

Cooked mutton also doesn't take water to cook, but does require soil.

No, wild wheat exists. And dead mouflon yield mutton that can get cooked. So, both cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any water or soil necessarily.

Laggy · 2021-08-10 21:12:46

Spoonwood wrote:

forman wrote:
Cooked mutton also doesn't take water to cook, but does require soil.
No, wild wheat exists. And dead mouflon yield mutton that can get cooked. So, both cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any water or soil necessarily.

All pies require 1/4 bowl of water.

Every domestic food requires water.

The most water efficient domestic food would be piglets raised from a domestic boar, and milk.

20 servings of milk costs 1.25 bowls of water. That's 1/16 a bowl of water per serving.

1 pig raised from a boar costs 1/4 water. One boar is 5 carnitas. So for 1 bowl of water you get 20 servings of carnitas.

Spoonwood · 2021-08-10 23:39:10

Laggy wrote:

All pies require 1/4 bowl of water.

No. Berry pies, berry carrot pies, berry carrot rabbit pies, rabbit pies, mutton pies, carrot rabbit pies, and carrot pies can all get made from wild foods (and wild wheat) an thus it's not the case that all pies require 1/4 bowl of water.

DestinyCall · 2021-08-11 00:53:21

Nobody gathers wild wheat for baking, Spoon. Don't be silly.

Laggy · 2021-08-11 02:57:09

Spoonwood wrote:

Laggy wrote:
All pies require 1/4 bowl of water.
No. Berry pies, berry carrot pies, berry carrot rabbit pies, rabbit pies, mutton pies, carrot rabbit pies, and carrot pies can all get made from wild foods (and wild wheat) an thus it's not the case that all pies require 1/4 bowl of water.

Have you ever made a pie spoon? LOLOLOL obviously not.

Let me break this down for you, it takes 1 bowl of water added to flour to make dough. You get 4 pies with 1 bowl of water.

That's before you add any filling.

Your wrong.

Last edited by Laggy (2021-08-11 03:01:50)

Spoonwood · 2021-08-11 06:46:29

Laggy wrote:

Have you ever made a pie spoon? LOLOLOL obviously not.

I have made pies before.

But, it doesn't hold that all pies require 1/4 a bowl of a water (though my reasoning above wasn't why).

The first pie requires an entire bowl of water to use, since it's used in making the dough. Thus, one can't make the first, nor the second, nor the third with 1/4 of a bowl of water. An entire bowl of water needs to get used to make the dough.

DestinyCall · 2021-08-11 07:02:18

That is simply not true. You could make three tortillas before you decide to make a pie out of the remaining dough.

In that case, the first pie wouldn't require a whole bowl of water because the dough was already made.

Laggy · 2021-08-11 21:32:21

Spoon math isn't your strong point, your better at arguing, or illogical rambling.

You know those buy one get one free deals?

Your not getting anything for free, because the cost is added in.

So saying that the first pie crust cost 1 bowl of water and the others are free is illogical.

Last edited by Laggy (2021-08-11 21:44:49)

DestinyCall · 2021-08-11 23:05:45

It's spoon logic. Bendy and ridiculous, as always.

Acknowledging that you are right about the water cost of making a pie would require Spoonwood to admit that he made a mistake. I am pretty sure that he would rather kill reason itself, than concede the point in an argument. Common sense be damned.

Spoonwood · 2021-08-12 04:44:12

DestinyCall wrote:

That is simply not true. You could make three tortillas before you decide to make a pie out of the remaining dough.
In that case, the first pie wouldn't require a whole bowl of water because the dough was already made.

You're right, I hadn't considered doing something like that. But nonetheless, one bowl of water needs put into dough before any pies can get made and it has to be the entire bowl, a fraction of the bowl won't suffice.

Spoonwood · 2021-08-12 04:46:10

Laggy wrote:

Spoon math isn't your strong point, your better at arguing, or illogical rambling.
You know those buy one get one free deals?
Your not getting anything for free, because the cost is added in.
So saying that the first pie crust cost 1 bowl of water and the others are free is illogical.

I didn't claim the others free. The question concerned how much water needed to get used in order to make a pie. What is clear is that in order to make dough, an entire bowl of water needs to get used... a fraction of a bowl of water won't suffice.

DestinyCall · 2021-08-12 13:20:42

Nice job moving the goal-posts, Spoonwood. But no, that's not the right question.

You made the statement "both cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any water or soil necessarily." This assertion was based on the fact that wheat can be gathered from the wild to make flour. But you failed to take into consideration that you must use a bowl of water to make the flour into dough, so actually making pies ALWAYS cost some water, regardless of filling.

Since you can potentially make four pies from one bowl of dough, a single pie costs 1/4 of a bowl of dough. Obviously, you can't make 1/4 bowl of dough in this game, you will always make a whole bowl of dough with one bowl of water and one bowl of flour. But each individual pie only needs a 1/4 of that bowl.

A mutton pie contains 1/4 of a bowl of dough and a one chunk of mutton. The water cost associated with the mutton can vary, depending on the source of meat - you might kill a wild mouflon or kill a domestic sheep that was created using all wild ingredients or part wild ingredients or entirely domestic-grown ingredients. It might no cost. It might be quite a bit more than that. The water cost associated with the dough is 1 bowl of water, split into quarters, plus the cost of producing the wheat. Wild wheat has no additional water/soil cost, while domesticated wheat costs more to produce.

In short, the actual amount of water being used for the individual pie is less than the full bowl required for the dough, which is why Laggy didn't say that making a meat pie requires one bowl of water. He is only considering the amount of water that goes into one pie. The other 3/4 of a bowl of dough could be used to make more pies or tortillas or sit on a table unused until the village dies. That doesn't matter, since we are only interested in making one pie right now.

Cooked mutton doesn't *necessarily* cost any water. But mutton pies DO necessarily cost at least a 1/4 of a bowl water for each pie. But more importantly, it is less than zero, which is what you claimed and the actual issue under dispute.

Spoonwood · 2021-08-14 01:21:37

I haven't moved goalposts.

DestinyCall wrote:

You made the statement "both cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any water or soil necessarily." This assertion was based on the fact that wheat can be gathered from the wild to make flour. But you failed to take into consideration that you must use a bowl of water to make the flour into dough, so actually making pies ALWAYS cost some water, regardless of filling.

Yeah, so? You quote me assaying that both cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any water or soil necessarily. Cooked mutton and mutton pies don't require any soil necessarily. Therefore, they don't require any soil or water necessarily, since the 'or' there indicates a disjunction.

In fact Destiny, you've moved the goalposts here, by interpreting the 'or' statement as if it weren't a disjunction.

DestinyCall wrote:

In short, the actual amount of water being used for the individual pie is less than the full bowl required for the dough, which is why Laggy didn't say that making a meat pie requires one bowl of water.

The entire bowl is used as soon as the dough gets made. So, on the contrary, for the first pie to get made one bowl of water must get used.

DestinyCall wrote:

But more importantly, it is less than zero, which is what you claimed and the actual issue under dispute.

I'm pretty sure that you quoted me as saying a disjunction and I haven't edited the comment where I put it. I guess I shouldn't feel surprised that you made an error in understanding an 'or' statement, and how only one part needs to hold true for the disjunction to hold true as a whole, since you didn't understand that validity automatically holds for any argument with a single false premise.

DestinyCall · 2021-08-14 02:09:20

And you still don't seem to understand why it is problem for a valid argument to be logically unsound.

Care to explain this one? I don't see any convenient disjunctions here.

Spoonwood wrote:

Laggy wrote:
All pies require 1/4 bowl of water.
No. Berry pies, berry carrot pies, berry carrot rabbit pies, rabbit pies, mutton pies, carrot rabbit pies, and carrot pies can all get made from wild foods (and wild wheat) an thus it's not the case that all pies require 1/4 bowl of water.

As previously established, wild foods do not matter. The baseline water cost comes at the dough step.

You need a bowl of water to make a bowl of dough. But you do not need a full bowl of dough to make a pie. For the pie, you only need 1/4 of a bowl of dough. So you are only using 1/4 of the bowl of water that went into the dough on each pie that you make. The rest of it is not being used and should not be counted as part of its production cost.

Therefore, all pies require 1/4 bowl of water (at least).

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-08-14 02:12:18)

Laggy · 2021-08-14 15:24:14

Spoon lives in imagination land, where everyone loves him, and people don't know how to do math.

Kinda like my four year old nephew.

Last edited by Laggy (2021-08-14 15:24:42)

OneOfMany · 2021-08-16 03:40:01

Nice Burn.

Now let me get into a Spoonwood sorta mindset......<lightning strikes>

Has anyone considered wild water? Wild water can be gathered for free. Therefore dough can be made without water cost. Pies can be made in the wild with purely foraged ingredients. The recipe includes foraged adobe for ovens, but it can ALL be done without any player made water, ie well-less, ect. townless, aka eveing. <thunder claps>

What happened?!? I think, I was possessed for a second. I'm not sure what happened there, but it seems like a valid point. Has anyone considered wild water? I know you couldn't run a town off it but how long could you eve off it? <I feel like this could use a different topic>

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Never ending water (sprinklers continued)

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