Another fix for Eve spawns is incoming.

jasonrohrer · 2021-05-25 03:15:12

I implemented eve spawn logging a few weeks ago.

Inspecting those logs, I notice a problem.

We are looking for a cluster of primary homelands, and sticking Eve to the West of that cluster.

But sometimes there are no primary homelands.

Those are defined as new wells dug on natural spring spots....

But apparently, a lot of fams settle old villages, and don't ever dig a new well that can unlock iron, so they don't have a primary homeland.

New code looks for the first (oldest) homeland for each family, and takes those as a cluster, and puts Eve to the west of those, whether or not those are primary homelands or not.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-25 03:27:48

Would it be possible to look at the oil situation next? The distances are getting problematic. Maybe tweak or remove oil tap-out?

Dodge · 2021-05-25 04:22:11

When the structure of a boat is poorly made it will eventually start to sink and constantly need to be patched up, that's a clear sign that all these mechanics only act as a patch for a bad structure.

If the structure is good it doesn't need any patching, it just works.

You artificially constrict players to be born in a specific area because for some reason you want to give them an infinite space to explore but also want them to interact with each other and not have access to infinite ressources so you have to put all these convulated mechanics in place to try to replicate what it would be to have an actual world that makes sense instead of just having one.

It's backwards and ends up wasting a lot of time trying to fix a sinking boat.

kundarsa · 2021-05-25 06:05:25

still no.
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 62#p106162

JonySky · 2021-05-25 07:09:41

I totally agree with Dodge,
Jason I recommend that you use your time without a computer to create a route plan, a direction, a goal ...

Plan where he wants to lead the game and where he wants to go
I think the goal of 10,000 objects is absurd if you don't know where you want to go

leave the sloppy patches and magic solutions and focus your ideas on a clear goal
Only by knowing where you are going will you be able to make the right changes to get there.

There is still a small community of players in OHOL that supports you ... meditate and explain to us where you want to go with OHOL and the community will respond positively ...

Last edited by JonySky (2021-05-25 07:10:11)

jasonrohrer · 2021-05-26 16:38:14

You guys realize there was a simple bug in the code that was periodically pushing Eve to the East by accident.

I've been working on fixing that bug.

From the latest logging (as of today, after letting the new code run for a while), it looks like the problem is fixed, but I will continue to keep an eye on it.

If someone can make a new graph like this:

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 62#p106162

That would be helpful!

Dodge · 2021-05-26 17:03:55

Sure and what happens when you want to add something new into the game, then you have to take into account the homeland mechanic+the iron family mechanic+the biome restriction mechanic+the biome band mechanic etc...

Which inevitably will cause a lot of issues and the boat starting to sink again.

That's no even the point, the foundation is bad and all these mechanics are patches to try to make it good but it just doesn't work.

The game is playable but it's far from how interesting it could be, and all these mechanics used to try and replace a good foundation is not the way to go.

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-26 19:41:48

I understand it is very hard to fix the eve spawn problem. There is also a problem with eves running back to old towns. How about, until the problem can be figured out and solved some day, we do a temp buff to the endstone towers. We have a few players, mainly Greifer1 and Forman, who pave so far into the future where eves will spawn some day or weeks or months from now, that there is no way to spawn as eve, and not be near a paved road. Now every eve that spawns, either runs back to an old town to re-establish the old town, or eve descendants run back to the old town to re-establish, or they will go get all their old gear, clothes, engines, trucks, ect, and bring them back to the new eve town, or some other town brings them all the gear, without eve even wanting it. Nothing ever gets re-crafted. Items crafted months ago are found on the online map and collected and brought back into current eve towns. The same trucks from months ago are in new eve towns today. The same engines from months ago are in new eve towns today. No eve can spawn, and not have an old engine, old truck, and old clothes be at that town before a sheep pen is made. Towns have whole fleets of trucks in their property fences, along with dozens of old engines. There are many players on the server who would love to see a server reset and to remove all this old gear that will not go away, but it is impossible to reset server from endstone towers as the game stands right now. The same players who ruin the game by paving 100 eve spawns into the future, are the same players who stop every apocalypse by destroying endstone towers. They use the online wondible map to search for the endtowers every day and stop them. Then, they hide the endblocks or wall them in with stone, removing them from play, or loading them into a truck and driving them for a whole hour north or south to remove them from play. No one will ever be able to use endtowers, as these players log on every day to be sure their paved roads will never be erased. I thought Jason's original concept of this game was to have the rise and fall of civilizations, but every single day is groundhogs day, because of the broken apocalypse abuse from online map locator being abused the Paver Boys, holding the rest of us hostage, as well as the online map not letting any item be left behind. Please do a hard reset of the server every few months, or make the apocalypse easier to pull off, or remove items from the online map. Two kids on a server should not be able to hold all of us hostage single-handedly, holding back a server reset indefinitely, and ruining the stone age to iron age story. This could be a symptom of a problem with the Climate Zone / Band system. A straight road into the future will hit every eve camp forever. The eve spawns are too predictable. No matter where eve spawns, all eve has to do is run to the bottom of the snow biome, and like magic there is a paved road there every single time. Run on the road for a few mins to the right, and like magic, you got free gear from an old town. There is no escape from the paved road at bottom of snow biome. There is no escape from every eve camp getting old clothes and engines crafted many months ago. Please fix this hostage situation. Most players like the climb from stone age to high tech, living out an enjoyable story of stone tools to high tech cars and roads. It is not fun to have the whole tech tree dropped in your eve camp every single time, every single day, before eve can dry out her shallow well or make her first sheep. We are all being held hostage in the Paver Kids story. Please bring back Jason's story of stone age to tech.

Palacio · 2021-05-26 19:57:10

I think you make very good points Paradoxal. It is fun to build things and to see a town slowly evolve from one tech era to the next. Perhaps we should run back to old towns less and craft more things in the new town.

One problem that is difficult to solve with new towns and eve spawning is that the towns of different families should remain together, since it is not so much fun having to run thousands of tiles west or east to get a bucket of latex.

Another problem is that what you want also requires that families should be in more or less the same technological stage. Because if one family is very evolved and the other is not it becomes very tempting to just drop an engine, a knife and a bunch of clothes to jump-start the other family.

I don't really have a solution for this.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-26 23:20:17

The solution is honestly pretty simple - family specializations should be removed. That is the game mechanic that ties villages together and forces the current tech-sharing meta to exist.

You might want to experience a pristine Eve camp, isolated from the rest of society, but you can't live like a caveman, if your next door neighbor owns a racecar and needs your family to get gud fast so you can start producing oil to fuel his shiny automobile.

Likewise, it makes no sense to laboriously construct a new engine from raw iron when you could jog down the road and pickup an old one from an abandoned town.

People do what makes sense and whatever is easy to do. If you already built a truck three hours ago in a previous life, why would you go to the effort of making another one, just because your old family has already died out? That truck is still out there, sitting unused.

The close proximity of towns is necessary for "trade" due to family specializations, but it also means that we are surrounded by the bones of our ancestors. If the family specializations mechanic was removed, Eves could spawn much further apart and remain isolated from outside interference for much longer. Constant tech sharing would larger disappear.

It doesn't solve the problem of late game stagnation, which was a major issue before family specialization. But that is a separate issue that still exists in the current build, masked by a lot of mind numbing busy-work, traveling between distant villages to gather up oil and rubber.

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-27 03:21:49

No town needs any resources from another family in this update. If my town is stuck with no rubber or no sulfur or no oil, I can just wait until night time, log in during low population hours, then gather any resource I need for my town before the sun rises in the morning. At low population, I can be any race and go get anything from any other biome on the map without restriction. I can be any race even the worthless white language race who's special power of language gets taken away and reversed at low population hours and everyone else but the whites gets to understand each other for some dumb reason. The only thing whites are good at with this current update, is waiting until night time when some other town's last family member dies, then pirate and pillage all of the other towns resources into their own town before sunrise like a pack of ninjas. I seen one town just about to die from low population dropping off at night, and many whites on horses will wait outside the towns with torches and backpacks and carts and trucks. Within literal minutes, the whites are storming into old towns gutting out the towns before any eve can run back to repopulate. I even seen one white guy shoot an arrow with a bloody note at the very last family member in a town guarding his towns property fence, with an arrow to the heart. The note saying, "WITH THIS ARROW, I END YOUR FAMILY LINE AND TAKE YOUR SHIT. Which is fine, I am totally fine with having a White Pirate Race who can only get stuff by stealing from other Races hard work. Feels like real life right? But, I will never have to travel down a long 10 thousand tile road to get a bowl of sulfur because there is no colored folk near me. There is zero reason to go ruin new eve camps to accelerate her tech tree for a bowl of sulfur or tank of oil or bucket of latex. The whole tech tree is accessible from any race, at any time, of any day of the week. If low population does not happen like on a weekend, I can use the online map to locate oil or sulfur or latex or anything from an old town to the right. Some days there can be low population, even during day time! We do not need every new eve's help as soon as she spawns. Everyone on this server has had everything they needed at any time without any eves help since March of this year. I am fine with families who are all 4 starting from stone age helping each other out with a bucket of rubber or bowl of sulfur using teamwork, if and only if, THE WHOLE MAP IS RESET, and we are trying to make that first engine or first truck. But when our server has dozens and dozens of engines and trucks and rubber and oil and bowls of sulfur already out there all over the map, and every town has 20 cans of kero in their property fence and multiple trucks in every town, and we all have access to an online treasure map telling us where every item is at any time of the day, any day of the week. No, I do not believe we need to help every eve out there rush to the top of her tech tree. That argument is not valid. Everyone has access to any resource they can dream of every single day of the week, every hour of every day. Anyone in this forum can challenge me. I will slash die until I am the worthless white race who has zero access to anything and I will go get any resource you want before my life is over without any other towns help. I will straight up run to an abandoned horse and cart or abandoned truck found from the online map, and then proceed to drive to the exact old town where the resources are you challenge me to get by looking at the online treasure map. I will be back before I get old with a whole load of anything you want. Any race can get shrimp or fish at any time. There are fishing houses with finished floors, all along the paved snow road everywhere, and in every old ginger town. Every race can get oil, there are oil wells out there with floors so any race can go fill up their empty tank at any time of day. There are mango farms out there with piles of mangos on the ground in most every old jungle town and in some white towns even. Use the treasure map and look. There are tons of buckets of latex everywhere on shelves in old towns, just use the treasure map and go take them. You get the idea. Everything is out there with no restrictions to anyone. You just have to walk to the right and go claim these unused old resources. I will never ever have to tech jump any eve town at any time to get any item. The only way to fix this problem of unlimited items, is to reset the map every so often, or give up on the specialization races idea and let eves spawn very far apart again in a sine wave pattern. Mix the biomes back up too. I actually like the old days, where you can ask a black or brown or ginger baby into your town and create a mixed race town so you have every colored race babies and special abilities in your town to reach top tier tech. I thought of it as reaching highest civilization when you have every race living life in peace in your town. I honestly think that was the best answer to this game, and in real life. Jason wants this game to be like real life. Why are we forced to live pure black or pure white towns. We all know kids love to role play in this game. The pure race town update only promotes role playing racism. The way the game is now, nine times outta ten, if a colored guy runs into a white town looking for some shrimp for craving, the white guys are going to shoot first and ask questions later if that guy touches any food or items, even one berry. Sometimes they are afraid the black guy is there to steal and they are right to protect. But also, sometimes they are looking for any reason to role play as a racist and shoot the black guy and call him bad names for eating one berry or carrot if hes starving from his long journey.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-27 03:54:19

My eyes are literally bleeding from reading that huge wall of uninterrupted text. Please, for the love of Nosaj, make some paragraphs next time.

Anyways, as for the question of if it is necessary to ruin Eve camps with advanced tech ... probably not. But that really isn't going to stop people from doing it, because it is just too easy and encouraged by the current meta.

You can certainly appeal to other veterans to make an effort to follow the Prime Directive and leave low tech societies alone until they have had time to "mature" naturally, but it would be very difficult to enforce on the entire community. You could also make a personal effort to remove anachronistic technology from early civilizations to combat this trend at ground level, but I suspect people won't appreciate your efforts as much as you might think. And as you have already covered in your post, even if no outsiders provide advanced technology to an Eve camp or young village, the Eve or her descendents can easily go find what they want (and a truck to carry it) using the "treasure map". So they might be ruining their own tech progression or jump starting development with a load of salvage from a nearby dead town.

Basically, you would need to convince everyone to stop sharing with other families or taking stuff from old towns, except when you deem it appropriate and realistic. That's going to be a pretty tough sell. We have been living as mindless scavengers, endlessly moving west like a cloud of locusts for a very long time now.

...

I miss the days of old when Eves spawned in an endlessly expanding spiral and most lives were spent without meeting a single person who didn't live in your village. I miss wandering alone in untouched wilderness as an Eve, struggling to put a simple camp together while jungling babies. I miss hunting for ground iron in the badlands and the shock of encountering signs of human activity far from my home village. And the wonder of finding an old dead town, lost to time, yet perfectly preserved, an unexpected and treasured source of valuable iron tools and new clothing for my family.

Those were good times. Good memories. Before fences and war swords, segregated families, inaccessible biomes, locked homelands, water sources on grids, tool slots, limited iron mines, finite lives, and a dozens of other "improvements".

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-05-27 03:59:56)

Dodge · 2021-05-27 04:45:06

Oh no please dont bring up the issue of tech disparity between families, Jason is sooooo "good" at finding solutions that he will probably implement a mechanic where early generations get kicked out of trucks if they try to get in or drop engines if they try to pick them up.

He's reasoning will be something like "they are not supposed to know about advanced technologies so it makes sense they cant use it"

And fuck up the game even more in the process...

How about all families start at the same time in the same world and dont continuously respawn when they die off so the technology will be at the same level? Nah that would be too simple it needs to be another complicated and annoying mechanic.

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-27 08:08:03

We do not need to convince everyone to leave eve alone. This is not the communities fault at all. We do not need the Prime Directive to leave primitive towns alone. We need to completely end the story once in a while, instead of picking up where we left off every single day. Like in old days, the last family standing wins and they get some special honor on the website. Or the rift runs out of water and oil and iron, now we go into recycling mode to make our town go on that last mile. Maybe we drink pond water to make it those last few generations. Then the server resets and we start over with clean server and zero items anywhere. Maybe once in a while someone ends story early with a surprise endstones ending, and then we get an early reset to stop some other families advantages and level the playing field to win the last family standing game.

The problem is not the community. The problem is how items never go away. If cars and trucks or bucket of latex or engine would rust over time or any item would just expire after a set time, sure lets fill the server with a thousand cities and never reset and play the same story forever and ever. But if a truck or engine or car is still on server from being crafted thousands of eves ago, there is little to no reason to craft more after a few hundred engines are already on the map. I seen some players drive items for a whole life, 20 thousand tiles off the map to the south, just to get rid of old race cars and trucks off the map on purpose, because they are so sick of them and there is no way to get rid of this junk from ever coming back otherwise. We got so many engines and trucks we drop off a few to every new eve town right away just to get rid of all our extra junk. No town is giving away their only towns water engine to help that new eve out. There is no way to destroy a car or truck, its invincible and it never breaks down, but that wooden cart will break or that newcomen pump will break after every use and it needs a new rubber seal after every use. I wish my real life car lasted for thousands of generations for all my descendants for all of time in real life. Why does not our cars or trucks in this game need a new tire every 20 thousand tiles. Why not a new engine every so many tanks of gas. Why not new windshields every so many mosquitoes. Why not need an oil change after every so many generations. Why not a new timing belt every so many hours of use.

Now if you would have to craft an engine from scratch to help that eve out from the kindness of your heart, I am fine with that. Go to that eve town and start pounding iron. But when this game which revolves around crafting, loses all reasons to craft, because of item overloading and overflowing into eve towns, this is a critical problem which is sucking alot of fun and crafting goals out of this game. I am sure alot of you love having infinite items on the map and I am sure it is really fun for you to hoard all that junk into your towns. But, if this were my game, I would focus on giving players new crafting goals and rewards for reaching them. Right now, I feel like why craft items that we already have hundreds of already. Instead of crafting that engine, I will just walk for 5 mins to old town and pick one up, or pull one out of the dozens of engines stored in rail carts full out the family vault from thousands of generations before me handed down for thousands of years for all of time. Except now we lose all excitement of building that engine before water runs out. Except now we do this for every hard crafting item in the game only weeks after a server reset all the hard goals are gone. Now the game is not about crafting, it is about treasure hunting old ruined towns.

If we want a treasure hunting game lets go hard on it and add dungeons to explore like Zelda or Tomb Raider to find that gold crown to craft into a bell, but that treasure chest full of gold has a lock on it, now we have to find the key or craft a replacement key and pick that lock to get that treasure out of the dungeon while shooting bow and arrow at monster mobs. If we are here to craft, then please lets embrace crafting. Noone here wants to re craft items for fun that we already have unlimited access to in unlimited amounts. We need to be crafting towards a goal to evolve town to next level. It is not fun crafting that one last engine so our engine vault is finally full of one hundred engines now we win, we did it. Or yes finally everyone in our town has their own car and own truck because we have a whole fleet of cars and trucks from thousands of eves ago. We need a steady progression towards a towns goal, and when that goal is met, then we need to start over. All the way over. It is not fun to cheat our way to a towns goals. Noone feels good about getting a free truck full of oil and engines in your eve town so you can skip all the crafting goals without working for them.

Lets all stop acting like the problem is we do not have enough oil or water and please Jason give us more oil and water. We got so much water and oil we will never run out of it stop complaining about not enough water and oil. There has never been one day where I log on to this game, and I say to myself, uh oh no more oil now we gotta go get water from duck ponds. The server is dry everywhere. We gotta start using water saving sprinkler systems. How often do you all use a sprinkler system. If you do, It is not cause your running out of water, you can bet on that. More like, I am bored. Lets make a sprinkler not to save water but to just make something new that noone ever uses. If yall were that bad on oil and water, every town would rush water saving sprinklers from your unlimited iron supplies. No town on our server ever dies from no more water. I use sports car to visit every old town on this server guess what. All the dead towns have access to water. Some dead towns have so much cisterns of water it really is amazing. We all die from no player on at night time because the game is not fun anymore because there is no crafting goals so nobody wants to play a goal oriented crafting game without the goals.

DestinyCall · 2021-05-27 09:02:48

It doesn't sound like we need the entire world to end repeatedly. That would be over-kill. And it would get pretty damn annoying if the world kept resetting every time you managed to accomplish something cool or different or hard. It would feel pointless to do anything difficult, if it was all going to get wiped out the next day.

It sounds like what is really needed would be more decay mechanics. Cars breaking down and requiring repairs to keep running. Engines rusting and falling apart if they are left abandoned. Fancy clothing falling apart after a few thousand years. That kind of thing. Stuff that is hard to make should take a long time to decay as a reward for the effort put into creating it, but it shouldn't last until the heat-death of the universe either. There needs to be some kind of balance. And introducing more decay would also open up the possibility of different item tiers - like better backpacks that last longer or can be more easily repaired instead of falling apart completely.

"We got so much water and oil we will never run out of it stop complaining about not enough water and oil." You realize these things are related, right? It wasn't always so easy. Going out and grabbing an old truck or engine saves your village a TON of water/iron/oil usage. It's not just easier in terms of time, it is also much more resource-efficient to do it this way. If you successfully stopped people from utilizing all the end-game tech produced by past generations, it would heavily tax the available resources in the average village. This is definitely a balance issue and it is related to the infinite world map and the intentionally clustered Eve spawns. We are dealing with the current meta and its associated issues, because players have had to adapt to severe water/oil/iron restrictions in the past and find ways to over-come them.

Right now, in the current game state, whether your town lives or dies, whatever you managed to produce gets left behind for future villagers to scavenge. And because new Eves MUST spawn relatively close to existing villages to allow for "trade" between the three important races, the world map is a graveyard of dead towns, supporting a small cluster of living villages. The smart money is on raiding those old towns for iron machinery and other sundries, while pushing further into the wilderness for more oil. It is NOT smart to try to use your limited resources to make the really expensive stuff (like engines and trucks) from scratch every time you need one. It will waste a ton of iron, water, and oil that will need to be laboriously replaced by future generations, assuming your town survives that long. More than likely, your town will just die out and a different village will benefit from your hard work and excessive resource expenditures.

Unfortunately, I think OHOL has always struggled with what to do in the "end game". The early game is pretty solid. Build an Eve camp. Keep your family alive. Plan and construct a simple village. Upgrade the well. Make more farms. Build a bakery, smithy, nursery. Expand, build, grow, survive. But what is the goal for a village that has a fully upgraded well? What is the next thing you need to do to secure the future of your village? Once you hit oil-tech, it is just a never-ending grind for more oil - Oil to make water. Oil to make iron. Oil to make more oil. There's nothing much left to do at that point, especially if you already have a truck. Are you going to build a radio? An airplane? Raise dogs? Plant some rosebushes? Go fishing? Make burritos? Get a crazy tattoo on your face? Not much point in doing any of that and most of it is race-locked anyways. I think we could use some more solid end-game goals. Structures or achievements that would only be possible in a prosperous and stable town. The game currently doesn't have anything like that, except for the bell tower. We need more things like that. Stuff that is worth building because it makes our towns better and more enjoyable to live in.

Right now, Jason has everything balanced around the struggle to survive and maintain access to water. But I think he needs to give some thought to what happens when we reach a point where water is no longer a major issue. What drives our village forward into a post-scarcity future? Many of the current restrictive mechanics are intended to extend the sense of "urgency" and survival threat that you naturally feel during the early and mid-game into the late game. But it doesn't really work that well in an advanced town because the threats are just too remote and complex. Most players are not even going to notice an "oil crisis" until it becomes a "water crisis" and then that's only an issue if it becomes a "food crisis". But if you are already at food crisis, it is probably way too late to fix the oil problem and you might as well go back to planting roses.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-05-27 09:05:30)

forman · 2021-05-27 11:01:09

Far as eve spawns go I realize there is possibly a bug which is probably super hard to nail down with a project this size.

Still, mechanically, if home zones were only able to change within a limited range of the last home (say 1000 tiles) I think this would be a fix.
In my opinion, I think they should only be allowed to move west because any east movement causes all kinds of problems.

Far as paving -- I make the roads mainly so I can find my way between cities and guide eves to good spots and also quickly find out where I am (which is why I labelled signs at 1000 and now 500 intervals)

Far as pillaging -- yes paradox, I'm the one who shot the arrow and I do like my vehicles and kero because I find its too difficult to pave so far away without a truck (I used to use horses or stone blocks and both are miserable)

But... I very rarely take things things from old cities these days.

This is because 1) I'm rarely ever in or near cities because I'm paving/living thousands of tiles west
2) Cities are thus too far away to make regular trips to (even with a truck)
3) I don't like being a drain on other communities
4) I actually enjoy making my own stuff unless I'm really feeling too lazy (which is usually only for very specific things)

Due to the distance problem, I set up my own camps to produce food and tools. The only problem I've had is insufficient iron which I take from old mines or towns.

Far as gameplay and advancement -- there is simply no way to make everyone happy because everyone wants something different.
I've frequently been in remote or new towns and had babies instantly suicide because they want to be in cities (similarly eves keep running back to them)

Others are constantly running off and splitting families and whatnot to live primitive.

Personally, I like to play a sort of meta-game by preserving continuity through position. What I mean is: it doesn't matter where I am born, I find my way
back to the project I was working on. I personally don't like being trapped in one area or limited by the environment I'm born into. Also, by deliberately not dying of old age I am able to get through all different biomes in different lives and collect any raw materials I need, and bring them to the area I'm working.

This is only possible with roads and navigation and made easier by vehicles though you can (and I often do) walk or get my own horse from the desert.
Note: By the age of 13 I believe I have covered up to 2000 tiles walking on the highway.

Also, Eves move west so fast that without moving into the future, whatever your working on will get quickly left in the past -- inaccessible and forgotten.

This is why I pave the highways and, by using those highways, you too can set up your own project wherever you damn please, all by yourself if you like, just like I do.

One thing that would be nice is if there was an easier way to get iron on your own.

I mean, I typically know where a few old mines are but not being able to open iron unless you are an eve (or so I've been told) I find problematic.

JonySky · 2021-05-27 12:52:21

DestinyCall wrote:

It doesn't sound like we need the entire world to end repeatedly. That would be over-kill. And it would get pretty damn annoying if the world kept resetting every time you managed to accomplish something cool or different or hard. It would feel pointless to do anything difficult, if it was all going to get wiped out the next day.

correct, part of the charm of this game is seeing your family prosper in the future ... if the world is restored every 24 hours (for example) OHOL loses its essence completely

I even believe that the OHOL world should never be restored and it should be "natural" causes that cause this type of reboot.

I have been talking about natural disasters or climatology for a long time and I still think that it is one of the best solutions to end monotomy and boredom in OHOL, also to solve the problems of highly developed cities, to avoid a multitude of abandoned cities, to solve the monotomy of the food cycle, even to regenerate the map of natural resources

I explain:
Let's imagine a big snowfall (or the implementation of winters and summers in OHOL), this would cause that during the cold winter you cannot travel at normal speed due to snow and cold, you would need winter clothes to move and a vehicle to get to where you want to go, with the real possibility of dying on the trip

In these winters you would need to have buildings to warm up and a reserve of food (they would not grow in winter) and you would also need teamwork !!! just what ohol doesn't currently have

Imagine that the cities suffer from spontaneous forest fires that must be extinguished so as not to lose the city devoured by the flames (this would make the abandoned cities and all their content disappear)

They are ideas that (with a lot of work) can be developed and would create a unique game

It would be something similar to playing with a natural griefer, and although we don't like the idea of a griefer, let's remember that they have brought us many good stories in this game

but surely OHOL problems are not solved by changing values in an excel table (for example with the food nerf)

you have to implement new mechanics and ideas, without resorting to magic and careless patches and that's a lot of work

Last edited by JonySky (2021-05-27 13:00:03)

Sobako · 2021-05-27 14:37:16

I only see people here who play a game that they don't like and complain about it, they are all complaining that being able to grab ready-made technology, they don't start over and at the same time they want to start over but they don't stop grabbing technology old, and want others to force themselves to avoid these temptations? For God's sake, if you want to use ready-made technology, use it, if you don't want to, don't use it and do it yourself. Either you do the same thing over and over again, or you reuse technology. Or better yet, program your own video game because it is very clear that this is not for you.

And about the greifers, have they considered forming defense alliances? This game is an experiment where failure has a place. Now that I have found out about these "problems", I am going to do my best to solve this "problems" INGAME, and not wait for others to do it for me. Restart the map... are we crazy? That's giving the greifers victory and also giving them the opportunity to repeat everything. That is painful!!

PS: Give me a sharp stone and I'll walk from one end of the map to the other.

Last edited by Sobako (2021-05-27 14:44:02)

DestinyCall · 2021-05-27 15:02:02

Sometimes complaining is a way to show that you still care about the outcome.

If we didn't care anymore, we wouldn't keep complaining about the problems with this game. We would just move on to something better and never look back.

JonySky · 2021-05-27 15:26:17

Sobako wrote:

I only see people here who play a game that they don't like and complain about it, they are all complaining that being able to grab ready-made technology, they don't start over and at the same time they want to start over but they don't stop grabbing technology old, and want others to force themselves to avoid these temptations? For God's sake, if you want to use ready-made technology, use it, if you don't want to, don't use it and do it yourself. Either you do the same thing over and over again, or you reuse technology. Or better yet, program your own video game because it is very clear that this is not for you.
And about the greifers, have they considered forming defense alliances? This game is an experiment where failure has a place. Now that I have found out about these "problems", I am going to do my best to solve this "problems" INGAME, and not wait for others to do it for me. Restart the map... are we crazy? That's giving the greifers victory and also giving them the opportunity to repeat everything. That is painful!!
PS: Give me a sharp stone and I'll walk from one end of the map to the other.

Commenting and talking about a real gambling problem in a gambling forum is not complaining.

The few comments that are written in this forum are usually accompanied by proposals or possible solutions to these problems.

You yourself say that OHOL is an experiment ... If we, the players, don't give our opinion ... what's the use of experimenting?

Don't forget ... If OHOL didn't matter to me, I wouldn't even be writing this message

Sobako · 2021-05-27 21:52:57

DestinyCall wrote:

Sometimes complaining is a way to show that you still care about the outcome.

the outcome is being shown right here. It did not need to be programmed for the game to transcend the 4th wall, however it did and I was in awe of discovering the forum and reading all these debates, battles, whining and good intentions. And I see that the idea that I thought was good is better than I expected. I have no regrets that I found this forum ... OHOL is fucking awesome. My respects Jason.

JonySky wrote:

Commenting and talking about a real gambling problem in a gambling forum is not complaining.
The few comments that are written in this forum are usually accompanied by proposals or possible solutions to these problems.
You yourself say that OHOL is an experiment ... If we, the players, don't give our opinion ... what's the use of experimenting?
Don't forget ... If OHOL didn't matter to me, I wouldn't even be writing this message

Of course, you are absolutely right and I am enjoying reading all you!!

And in my opinion, what was shown here is that the players were not able to organize themselves and depend on a supreme body to solve all their problems. Very true to reality xD

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-28 18:54:15

I never said we need to end the game every 24 hours and ruin all your hard works. I did say, and go check this please, to please have an end to the game after a few weeks or a few months. But it only takes a week or so for a town to max out and live the good life with every item possible in the game made and enjoy all your items. But the last reset was months ago. We have been living the good life with enjoying all of your hard works for months and months now. When is enough, enough? When have we had enough time to enjoy putting your hard worked items on a shelf and looking at it day after day? Do noobs log on to come see your hard work on a shelf? Or do noobs see nothing to do and uninstall pointless game?

I never said I want the server to reset every 24 hours. You are trying to twist my words and you are being emotional about the reset. But you ARE comparing a reset after a few months to a 24 hour reset. I know me asking for a reset every few months feels to you like we are RESETTING EVERY 24 HOURS. But you cannot compare a 24 hour reset to me asking for resetting the game maybe A FEW TIMES PER YEAR. Those two ideas are vastly different. Emotion is clouding your eyes. Also, we cannot balance this game around a select few hardcore players who never want their masterpieces to ever disappear. I am sure Jason wants this game to grow and appeal to the average player. Being born into a town with nothing really important to do for a new player will feel very pointless and with no obvious goal, they are going to afk by the fire or quit the game, or kill all the sheep and start to grief the game doing anything possible to un-craft the town, kill all the girls, or whatever it takes to ruin the town and return order into chaos.

I remember when I was new, when I was born into a HUGE long established town for the first time, with everyone wearing FANCY clothes and FANCY hats and EVERYTHING possible already crafted and stored onto tables, it did not feel fun to me. It was fun to run around and gawk at all the hard work that was done like visiting the MUSEUM. But, at the end of the day, my noob self back then did not find any value or fun in playing in a maxed out town. I would rather play in a small camp with obvious goals that I can feel the pressure of getting done, feeling worth in the crafting and work I put into the game and the appreciation from others from doing so.

Now I know all you hard core veterans hate to see your hard works erased, but just for one moment, lets try to see this game from the viewpoint of the average noob. You know, the players who will make this game grow from 20-40 players on per day to hundreds or thousands of players on per day. We cannot center this game around a select few and expect it to appeal to everyone. We should be targeting what things make the average noob player feel good about playing this game and focus on that. If the game grows, we did something good. It should not matter what the 20 hard core players want in this game. The focus should be on expanding player base.

Is this games goal to be a thought experiment to get data from the hardcore 20 players living in their sheltered Bio-Dome where nothing is ever erased so we can collect data on them how they react? Did Jason make this game for just you special 20 hardcore players? Or is this games goal to expand player base beyond the 20 hardcore players and appeal to more then just hardcore players and reach hundreds or thousands of players, all enjoying playing this game and feeling that warm feeling of helping others out in their time of need and getting that reward of other players thanking them for reaching the towns next goal they were stuck on.

Lets all take a step back and see what makes the game fun for average players. Is it hording piles of treasure in your town and looking at it every day with nothing left to craft?

Or is it teamwork and reaching goals and player recognition and saving your town by being:
-star cook saving town from famine or
-star farmer getting a variety of food for towns yum chain or
-star smithy crafting tools to farm and build or engines to get oil or water or
-star lumberjack getting wood for floors and fire or
-star horse trainer so town can explore and gather resources or
-star road builder connecting towns to other towns or iron mines
-star mother teaching children how to do the above jobs
-star leader keeping town organized on strategic goals for town

The point is, the average player does not log on to play in your maxed out towns. The average player wants to be a star and shine in front of others being showered in their thanks and being a role model for other noobs to learn their skills and save the town so they can be recognized too for saving the town themselves someday. The average player likes to feel that wall of spikes slowly approaching and the impending doom coming for them if they do not focus on their crafting goals. If there is no doom, then this is just a sandbox where we bang two items together over and over with no real end goal to the game.

Sobako · 2021-05-28 21:45:38

There is everything but yesterday I spawned in 4 different families that were without resources and condemned...

Ah!.. and you can keep making all the assumptions you want and argue against that which does not exist...

DestinyCall · 2021-05-28 22:11:18

Paradoxal_1 wrote:

I never said we need to end the game every 24 hours and ruin all your hard works. I did say, and go check this please, to please have an end to the game after a few weeks or a few months. But it only takes a week or so for a town to max out and live the good life with every item possible in the game made and enjoy all your items. But the last reset was months ago. We have been living the good life with enjoying all of your hard works for months and months now. When is enough, enough? When have we had enough time to enjoy putting your hard worked items on a shelf and looking at it day after day? Do noobs log on to come see your hard work on a shelf? Or do noobs see nothing to do and uninstall pointless game?
I never said I want the server to reset every 24 hours. You are trying to twist my words and you are being emotional about the reset. But you ARE comparing a reset after a few months to a 24 hour reset. I know me asking for a reset every few months feels to you like we are RESETTING EVERY 24 HOURS. But you cannot compare a 24 hour reset to me asking for resetting the game maybe A FEW TIMES PER YEAR. Those two ideas are vastly different. Emotion is clouding your eyes.

Calm your tits, my friend. We are having a civil discussion here. There is no need to shout to be heard.

So just to be clear, are we talking about resetting the server a couple of times a year? Once every month? Every couple of weeks? Every week? On a fixed wipe-cycle or just whenever the last family dies or some other tech milestone or failure condition is reached? You have mentioned a variety of time-frames from very long to quite short, scheduled or random. It makes it hard to understand what you really want. I apologize if I misunderstood your intentions previously.

Regarding server resets during the Rift, I don't recall the exact length of the longest arc back in the Rift days, but I am pretty sure it was a time-frame that would be measured in hours or days, not weeks. Once the Eve window closed, it was a rapid descent into chaos and death every time. I vividly recall how ridiculously fast the first couple of arcs ended while Jason was still tweaking the fail conditions. Later on, most of them seemed to last a couple days at most. Some ending just hours after the Eve window closed. Did we even manage a week long arc in the Rift?

Personally, I'd rather not have a variable arc length, like during the Rift. It made me lose my connection to the game, because it was hard to get invested early on in the arc when you didn't know if it was going to be a long one or a short one. I didn't want to start any big projects that might require several lives to finish, because it might vanish the next day, without any warning, wiping away my efforts in an instant. And if the arc lasted a long time, it was still hard to get excited because an arc that lasted longer than normal was even more likely to end before I logged back in. Either way, the frequent, unpredictable resets encouraged me to "live in the moment" and killed a lot of my enthusiasm for the multi-generational aspect of this game. I like helping to build an early village and coming to check back on its progress from time to time. See how it grows, add personalized features, improve organization, that kind of thing. I get attached to a place and want to see it develop and thrive over time. Random frequent wipes are not compatible with getting deeply invested in your town.

So what about less frequent, routine server wipes? Maybe once a week or every two weeks or every month? Would that work?

Keep in mind, that it takes less than 24 hours to reach the top of the tech tree currently. And that rapid tech progression is critical due to the current well mechanics. You will run out of water and die if you don't push straight through to oil tech rapidly. There's no ability to linger in earlier stages, because normal water usage will exhaust early wells quite rapidly.

Even without help from past generations, that tech rush is going to happen in any village with seasoned players. Because it HAS to happen in order for the village to survive. A village full of noobs will just die out when they hit a chokepoint, because they won't know how to solve the problem fast enough to prevent death. Fortunately/ unfortunately, too many new players is typically not a big problem in OHOL, except during a Steam sale. Dodged a bullet there.

Meanwhile, we are currently experiencing a decent amount of family turnover. Old families die out. New Eves are created. A new village is born, grows old, and dies again.

Each time this happens, we get pushed further to the west, leaving behind the old towns and whatever we don't take with us. Even if we didn't wipe the server for a year, we wouldn't have a full year of trucks/racecars/engines/oil/etc in the active part of the map. There are lots of people tirelessly working to preserve the work of past generations, but stuff still gets left behind or lost (or purposefully hidden) all the time. We don't save every truck or every tank of oil. We don't raid every dead town or empty every oil well. And once it gets left behind for a day or two, we are unlikely to go back for it, due to the rapid rate of our westward march. In a month, we are so far away from our starting point, it might as well be on the moon. You can only travel so far in a single lifetime. The server might be infinite, but our lives are not

So what length of time would be long enough to satisfy my desire to build and watch my town grow, but short enough to satisfy your desire for a "blank slate" and a fresh start for new players joining the server?

With the current state of the game, I don't see much point in a monthly reset. It probably wouldn't feel any different than having no reset at all, with respect to tech accumulation, and it would really suck to play during the week leading up to the wipe, since you would know that nothing you built could last for a long time.

Weekly resets would be a little too fast for my preference, but might be the most the game can handle right now, since the pacing is so rapid and late game content is lacking.

Personally, I would prefer every other week, with the server wipe coinciding with a new game update, so Jason can make any changes he wants and push them out to a clean map.

That could be fun and it would give people plenty of time to build and develop their towns before the reset. Even if we theoretically could keep villages alive for longer than two weeks on an infinite map, in practice, I don't think we are actually able to do it. Trying to keep a village alive until the end of the arc would be a worthy challenge, I think.

Also, I think it would be great if the well upgrades could be tweaked to reduce water pressure in early towns, so the shallow/deep wells gave more water before exhausting. This would allow villages to develop more slowly and linger at the "pre-oil" stages for a longer time, rather than rushing up the tech tree. Allowing towns to be more self-sufficient and progress at different paces would also help stratify villages into different tech levels which would increase family diversity. Ideally, I would like to always have the option to be born in a very early town, a very late town, and a couple mid range towns. Not everyone wants to be a city-dweller or a caveman ... but it would be great if we could have more options to play whichever way we find most enjoyable.

Regarding the desires of the average player, I think the "average" player just wants to enjoy their time in OHOL. That might mean any of the things you listed and many that you did not ... like looting old towns and returning to town with a treasure trove of valuable items or a new truck. Or making a lot of tacos. Personally, I am not a big fan of feeling "the wall of spikes slowly approaching and the impending doom coming for them if they do not focus on their crafting goals", but I don't have anything against people who are into that sort of thing. Different strokes for different folks, you know?

In my mind, variety is the spice of life and too many limitations or restrictions just get in the way. This game is at its best when you have many ways to live. Too much doom gets overwhelming and mentally exhausting. Too little hardship becomes dull and boring. Too much monotony leads to one life feeling too much like the previous one. Too much old stuff accumulating endlessly is just as bad as too many wipes, washing away all your hard work The list goes on and on.

Balance and variety ... keep things interesting by allowing people to progress along multiple paths to success. This game has so much potential, but a lot of it is still untapped, even after years of development.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2021-05-28 23:50:19)

Paradoxal_1 · 2021-05-28 23:10:13

Telling people to calm their tits is hardly having a civil discussion.

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#1 2021-05-25 03:15:12

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