Question About The Water System

Spoonwood · 2020-10-13 16:34:28

Let's suppose that a pump valve is installed on a dry shallow well or dry deep well. Then a diesel engine gets installed once, and the four buckets of water drained from the well. The engine and pump valve get removed next. Can the resulting structure get upgraded to a deep well or a charcoal/kerosene pump? Or is all of that possible water gone?

DestinyCall · 2020-10-13 18:23:53

Based on Onetech, it remembers if it was shallow or deep.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-13 19:31:45

DestinyCall wrote:

Based on Onetech, it remembers if it was shallow or deep.

It says that here: https://onetech.info/664-Dry-Shallow-Well

and here:

https://onetech.info/665-Dry-Deep-Well

It says "from exhausted" only on the left here, but then only shows exhausted deep well here:

https://onetech.info/3041-Unpowered-Pum … -exhausted

I had someone on the discord tell me that going shallow/deep/newcomen wasn't possible after diesel, and that had been my guess before.

If it does kill off dozens of buckets of water in either case, I would expect that it would sound strange to even consider killing off that much water as anything but griefing. Call me argumentative on this one all you like, but with kerosene tanks getting delivered to towns, doing such could *in principle* reflect a preference to just skip the rubber process as much as possible. Though I would question whether anyone doing that had good intentions on bigserver2.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-10-13 19:38:34)

DestinyCall · 2020-10-13 20:04:36

Why would you assume malicious intent? The water system in this game is byzantine. The average player probably has no idea if using a diesel engine on a shallow well is good or bad without consulting OneTech. Even then, the answer is unclear.

That's like saying that using a hoe on a full pile of dirt is griefing because it is obviously a waste of valuable compost, which costs more time and effort to produce than iron for new hoes.

Sub-optimal play is NOT the same as intentionally ruining the game for other players. If it was, all new players would be griefers, by definition, because they are constantly making honest mistakes while trying gain a better understanding of the game.

I have a problem with people using the word "griefing" to describe any behavior they do not like. It dilutes the meaning of the word until it could mean almost any negative action.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-13 22:04:26

DestinyCall wrote:

Why would you assume malicious intent?

Estimated bucket loss is 123 buckets of water if installing the engine after the deep well phase, when the family would have run a charcoal pump. 156 buckets of water if managing to install the engine after a shallow well dries up.

Doing something like changing to a diesel water pump and leaving kerosene as quickly as possible, is extremely far away from players having the ability to rebuild "civilization" from scratch in a multiplayer context, if you ask me.

DestinyCall wrote:

The water system in this game is byzantine.

I agree.

DestinyCall wrote:

That's like saying that using a hoe on a full pile of dirt is griefing because it is obviously a waste of valuable compost, which costs more time and effort to produce than iron for new hoes.

That's how many resources thrown away in comparison to 123 buckets of water or 156 buckets of water?

DestinyCall · 2020-10-13 23:10:17

Strangely enough, you completely missed my point.

OneOfMany · 2020-10-13 23:59:38

DestinyCall wrote:

Why would you assume malicious intent? The water system in this game is byzantine. The average player probably has no idea if using a diesel engine on a shallow well is good or bad without consulting OneTech. Even then, the answer is unclear.
That's like saying that using a hoe on a full pile of dirt is griefing because it is obviously a waste of valuable compost, which costs more time and effort to produce than iron for new hoes.
Sub-optimal play is NOT the same as intentionally ruining the game for other players. If it was, all new players would be griefers, by definition, because they are constantly making honest mistakes while trying gain a better understanding of the game.
I have a problem with people using the word "griefing" to describe any behavior they do not like. It dilutes the meaning of the word until it could mean almost any negative action.

I couldn't agree more. Too many people are labeled as griefers. If you wanted, you could consider anything greifing. I like to talk when I play, some people would consider that griefing. Don't get me wrong but, there are ways to cause real problems, but even then it just adds to the experience. Love them or hate them, real griefers add intrigue.

Cogito · 2020-10-14 00:22:29

Spoonwood wrote:

Estimated bucket loss is 123 buckets of water if installing the engine after the deep well phase, when the family would have run a charcoal pump. 156 buckets of water if managing to install the engine after a shallow well dries up.
Doing something like changing to a diesel water pump and leaving kerosene as quickly as possible, is extremely far away from players having the ability to rebuild "civilization" from scratch in a multiplayer context, if you ask me.

Out of interest, what resources are *saved* by skipping those phases?

I assume it's a decent amount of charcoal and rubber?

If you have access to abundant kerosene it may make sense to 'lose' that 123-156 buckets of water in order to avoid the extra work required to get it, or to remove reliance on other families for rubber (for example).

OneOfMany · 2020-10-14 02:34:22

Cogito wrote:

I assume it's a decent amount of charcoal and rubber?.

Both of these are a renewable resource.

My advise is, just borrow a cup of rubber from your neighbor and never be without. They won't mind. Besides, in your next life you'll be in the jungle family anyways.

Coconut Fruit · 2020-10-14 02:36:40

Onetech is pretty clear at this one. You can remove pump valve to get dry shallow well again, but once diesel is installed it can't be anything else than diesel/exhaused well anymore.

I think it could have some benefits to install diesel pump on dry shallow well tho.
Super late generation families can't stay in one place forever if they want to survive even longer since they are far away from other families and resources. Easy access to water from diesel pump right away could make it easier to survive in a new place. New place = new easy access to new resources, so the lose from unused well stages is not big deal if that's the price for surviving.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-14 13:21:00

Cogito wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Estimated bucket loss is 123 buckets of water if installing the engine after the deep well phase, when the family would have run a charcoal pump. 156 buckets of water if managing to install the engine after a shallow well dries up.
Doing something like changing to a diesel water pump and leaving kerosene as quickly as possible, is extremely far away from players having the ability to rebuild "civilization" from scratch in a multiplayer context, if you ask me.
Out of interest, what resources are *saved* by skipping those phases?
I assume it's a decent amount of charcoal and rubber?

41 estimated uses of a charcoal pump. https://onetech.info/2220-Dry-Newcomen-Pump Each use of a charcoal pump requires a single rubber tire and basket of charcoal (and a bucket of water, but you make more water, so this detail loses relevance here). So, 41 rubber tires and charcoal estimated. 41 hatchet or axe uses, possibly a little more if a rubber oven is used to cook some rubber (a specialty rubber oven is much better for organizational purposes in my experience... if you played in Cooler family, there was a second oven by the nearby desert where I had left buckets of latex at for cooking rubber). 4 rubber tires from a bucket, so that's 11 buckets of latex, 11 bowls of palm oil, and 11 bowls of sulfur no longer needed, in addition to 11 bowls of water no longer needed to cook the rubber... I should have subtracted 1.1 buckets of water from the numbers above. Also, there's the potential time savings for obtaining those resources, and fewer buckets tied up by latex I guess.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-14 13:23:45

I wonder if one attempted this it might end up as a sort of race to see who installs a stanchion kit or runs a charcoal pump vs. a diesel water pump first.

Cogito · 2020-10-15 10:17:46

Spoonwood wrote:

Cogito wrote:
Spoonwood wrote:
Estimated bucket loss is 123 buckets of water if installing the engine after the deep well phase, when the family would have run a charcoal pump. 156 buckets of water if managing to install the engine after a shallow well dries up.
Doing something like changing to a diesel water pump and leaving kerosene as quickly as possible, is extremely far away from players having the ability to rebuild "civilization" from scratch in a multiplayer context, if you ask me.
Out of interest, what resources are *saved* by skipping those phases?
I assume it's a decent amount of charcoal and rubber?
41 estimated uses of a charcoal pump. https://onetech.info/2220-Dry-Newcomen-Pump Each use of a charcoal pump requires a single rubber tire and basket of charcoal (and a bucket of water, but you make more water, so this detail loses relevance here). So, 41 rubber tires and charcoal estimated. 41 hatchet or axe uses, possibly a little more if a rubber oven is used to cook some rubber (a specialty rubber oven is much better for organizational purposes in my experience... if you played in Cooler family, there was a second oven by the nearby desert where I had left buckets of latex at for cooking rubber). 4 rubber tires from a bucket, so that's 11 buckets of latex, 11 bowls of palm oil, and 11 bowls of sulfur no longer needed, in addition to 11 bowls of water no longer needed to cook the rubber... I should have subtracted 1.1 buckets of water from the numbers above. Also, there's the potential time savings for obtaining those resources, and fewer buckets tied up by latex I guess.

For a family that is post-kerosene, the time savings from *not* using charcoal and rubber is significant.

If we have a reliable source of kerosene, a diesel well is both faster and more secure than using rubber and charcoal, and it frees any rubber and charcoal we have for vehicles and steel production.

In general play, I would only expect this situation to come up when a family emigrates, or inherits a lot of supplies from a dead family. Personally, if I have the engine and the kerosene (and am likely to get more), I think I would go for the diesel well simply because it simplifies the process so much, and the chance of the family dying out is lower.

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