New idea for killing

Cantface · 2020-05-08 17:07:55

jasonrohrer wrote:

Dantox, how many persistent online multiplayer games have you shipped? How successful were they?

We get it, you have over fifteen years of game development experience. You have made that very clear, multiple times. Talking about harping on the same ideas? You do that too.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, the people who say that I never take suggestions from the community are just expressing sour grapes because their favorite idea wasn't used.
Remember, it's up to me to decide which ideas should be included in the game. Also, if you call me an idiot every other post, or keep harping on the same idea over and over, I tend to stop listening to you.

I said you take suggestions literally in another post. That's not the issue, we're debating about the posse mechanic. Also nobody in this forum topic at least has called you an idiot. You're probably just incredibly stubborn as am I and many others, there's no shame in that.

You made a game people care about, you been playing Frankenstein and not everybody approves of the experiments you've been doing. There's going to be opinions about this. Make no mistake you do hold the keys, it's your right to do anything you want to OHOL it's your creation and you know this for sure. However, that doesn't mean ppl can't voice their concerns about things that happen in game or changes that they feel are flawed. It's just going to happen over and over no matter what you do. Disregard all of it if you'd like but don't be surprised when people turn negative after many thousands of hours only for their opinions to be treated like trash.

Maybe you couldn't care less that ppl are emotionally attached to a game you made but that in itself is a blessing and a curse.

JonySky · 2020-05-08 18:02:43

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, let's copy the combat mechanics of HoMM, which is a single player, turn-based game. Let's make that work in a multiplayer, realtime game. Let's stop time every time combat occurs...?
A LV 11 GRIEFER APPEARS
Even the best-sounding ideas don't often work in practice, once implemented inside a persistent multiplayer game....

You quickly dismiss the ideas of the community with absurd and unreasonable explanations

Logically all the ideas that your players expose must be worked and adapted before they can be implemented in OHOL

But if you work well, you can implement many of the ideas that we explain here

I remind you that your latest updates have been based on putting us in a box, fighting with a posse system that nobody likes and limiting ourselves to create objects (in a Sandbox game)

You spent several months changing rift values to FORCE us to live in that box and in the end it did not work ...
And here you are explaining to us that it is very difficult to adapt HoMM combat ...

Sorry Jason, but although HoMM combat is not the best for OHOL, I am sure it will be much better than the pose system (an unintuitive, complicated and unfair system)

Léonard · 2020-05-08 18:21:09

jasonrohrer wrote:

or keep harping on the same idea over and over, I tend to stop listening to you.

You have yet to refute my main idea on civilization in OHOL with anything more than "I have 15 years of game designing experience and you don't".

jasonrohrer wrote:

if you call me an idiot every other post

Forgive me but some things that you have said in the past are legitimate idiocy.

Cantface wrote:

Also nobody in this forum topic at least has called you an idiot.

Until now, but as cantface points out, don't lump in all the people who are unhappy with your updates into the same category yet again.
We both remember how well it ended last time you did this, so quit while you're ahead.

You hide behind a wall, you ignore the people who oppose you by assuming things about them like they just dislike you or that they're entitled or whatever you come up with this time around.
But I'm still there, my arguments unaddressed. You're still wrong.
You say game desgining is hard.
I agree but, I say you're an idiot for systematically ignoring part of the problem.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 19:15:51

Dantox, the question is relevant because you are complaining about how long it is taking to get it right.

You've never tried it yourself. If you had tried it, you'd know that it takes a long time to get a new, unprecedented multiplayer design right.

What seems obvious to you from the outside.... is... well... just not as easy and obvious.

Experience counts for something.... not as an appeal to blind expert worship.... but, you know, I've done this 19 times. That means I've faced difficult design problems a bunch of times and found ways to solve them, eventually.

I've seen what works and what doesn't work countess times. I've tried and FAILED countless times, and learned from each failure.

You've never tried, and thus you've never failed, so you don't know how common failure is. From where you sit, I look like a bungling idiot who just won't listen.

But the truth is that this is what world-class game design looks like. You're watching it happen, live.

I'm sure, if you ever made a game, you'd get everything right the very first time, and everything you designed would work correctly, and players would behave exactly the way you'd predict they would behave, every time. The difficult design problems would be easy, and the impossible ones solvable.

If so, you're a way better game designer than I am, and hundreds of millions of dollars are yours for the taking.

Whatever · 2020-05-08 19:33:38

jasonrohrer wrote:

But the truth is that this is what world-class game design looks like. You're watching it happen, live.

You keep taking short cuts by inventing arbitrary new rules that are not natural to the game, instead of coming up with good solutions.
You keep adding more and more confusing mechanics.

jasonrohrer · 2020-05-08 19:34:11

Am I stubborn, or am I just good at ignoring bad ideas?

If you think that all of the ideas that I don't use are excellent, then it looks like I'm stubborn.

But you know, everybody and their brother has ideas about how this game should work, and what should be added to it. I can't listen to everyone, obviously. There are people who are still begging me to remove curses and d-town. People who wish life was longer than an hour. People who wish the game was single-player.

When someone suggests a really good idea, I'm not stubborn at all. I snatch it up and use it right away---I'd be a fool if I ignored really good ideas. I'm on the phone several times a week with my designer friends, asking them for ideas... throwing problems at them and seeing what they can come up with as solutions. They're probably pretty sick of me calling over the past 2+ years, and I owe them big-time for their willingness to bang their heads against tough problems in my game.

I even ask my family (in real life) for design advice.

But please understand that there's no promise or guarantee that I will listen to your idea or advice.

I guess you can get mad about it, if you want to.

Dantox · 2020-05-08 19:43:15

jasonrohrer wrote:

Experience counts for something.... not as an appeal to blind expert worship.... but, you know, I've done this 19 times. That means I've faced difficult design problems a bunch of times and found ways to solve them, eventually.

The same way with the rift, i suppose.

It is true that i have never tried, and probably will never get to experience truly what is to be a game designer, however i have been playing OHOL long enough to know how it truly feels to play it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

You've never tried, and thus you've never failed, so you don't know how common failure is. From where you sit, I look like a bungling idiot who just won't listen.

I mean, from where you sit, we are just a bunch of people that are complaining everytime you make a bad move we do not like, people that probably do not have a single grain of talent or experience as you do. you dont get to take the frustation that the community gets with these updates. You didnt get to feel your progress be erased by a bunch of griefers that were protected by a posse wall. You didnt get to feel the frustation to ran out of tool slots when the town was already dying out. Or to work 40 minutes of your life working on an engine only to come back seeing it scrapped. With or without property fences. Each time.

For every week.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've seen what works and what doesn't work countess times. I've tried and FAILED countless times, and learned from each failure

Then why thinking about revisiting the sword? what lesson did you learned about it besides that it doesnt work in OHOL? or at least not with this small playerbase, i suppose. What was the root of the problem that you claimed was making the sword seemed bad? Dont you see how bad of a concept it is when the family specialization literally forces us to play nice with each other?

I mean, its like you said just now, you want us to play how you want, behave like you want and to suffer just how you want. because what we want as players doesnt matter.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-08 20:01:16

jasonrohrer wrote:

Experience counts for something

No, it doesn't count for a single thing. It doesn't change the game or make it better or make it more appealing to anyone.

jasonrohrer wrote:

That means I've faced difficult design problems a bunch of times and found ways to solve them, eventually.

You simply haven't solved them all eventually, as you've said yourself:

jasonrohrer wrote:

I spent 11 months tweaking The Castle Doctrine after launch. It was also a brand new design space, but quite a bit smaller and simpler and easier to wrangle than OHOL. After 11 months, there were certain problems that simply could not be solved.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 395#p96395

jasonrohrer wrote:

I've seen what works and what doesn't work countess times. I've tried and FAILED countless times, and learned from each failure.

No, you haven't learned from each failure. In particular you didn't learn from the numbers declining as much as they did after the temperature overhaul. You didn't learn from engines getting scrapped. You didn't learn from domestic boars on the loose. You didn't learn from all the complaints of recent, which have exposed you as a liar, as you didn't fulfill your promise of trying to stay one step ahead of the player.

jasonrohrer wrote:

You've never tried, and thus you've never failed, so you don't know how common failure is. From where you sit, I look like a bungling idiot who just won't listen.

So what? You're not a paying customer of the game. Your opinion is meaningless.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But the truth is that this is what world-class game design looks like. You're watching it happen, live.

More like low class game design. Your game has NEVER been close to your goal of having all servers filled. And it never will be. Because you don't recognize the problems with it. Because you could care less about negative feedback. And more.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-08 20:06:52

jasonrohrer wrote:

Am I stubborn, or am I just good at ignoring bad ideas?

You're stubborn.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But you know, everybody and their brother has ideas about how this game should work, and what should be added to it. I can't listen to everyone, obviously. There are people who are still begging me to remove curses and d-town. People who wish life was longer than an hour. People who wish the game was single-player.

No, I don't think there exist people calling for those.

jasonrohrer wrote:

When someone suggests a really good idea, I'm not stubborn at all.

No, you don't use all good ideas. You don't use any sort of reincarnation to allow lineages to come back to life after updates. You don't have any system for fathers in the game. You don't go with any of the alternative combat ideas. You also haven't made any of the mini-game suggestions that Pein has made.

You have done jack squat about improving the tutorial, even though games like You Are Hope have clear ideas as to how to improve it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm on the phone several times a week with my designer friends, asking them for ideas... throwing problems at them and seeing what they can come up with as solutions. They're probably pretty sick of me calling over the past 2+ years, and I owe them big-time for their willingness to bang their heads against tough problems in my game.

They don't understand this game, as they don't play it. They also, like you, probably don't play games all that much, and thus don't understand much about what works gameplay wise and what doesn't.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-08 20:08:07

Dantox wrote:

Then why thinking about revisiting the sword? what lesson did you learned about it besides that it doesnt work in OHOL? or at least not with this small playerbase, i suppose. What was the root of the problem that you claimed was making the sword seemed bad? Dont you see how bad of a concept it is when the family specialization literally forces us to play nice with each other?
I mean, its like you said just now, you want us to play how you want, behave like you want and to suffer just how you want. because what we want as players doesnt matter.

Quoted for emphasis.

Cantface · 2020-05-08 21:10:19

jasonrohrer wrote:

Am I stubborn, or am I just good at ignoring bad ideas?
If you think that all of the ideas that I don't use are excellent, then it looks like I'm stubborn.
But you know, everybody and their brother has ideas about how this game should work, and what should be added to it. I can't listen to everyone, obviously. There are people who are still begging me to remove curses and d-town. People who wish life was longer than an hour. People who wish the game was single-player.

When someone suggests a really good idea, I'm not stubborn at all. I snatch it up and use it right away---I'd be a fool if I ignored really good ideas. I'm on the phone several times a week with my designer friends, asking them for ideas... throwing problems at them and seeing what they can come up with as solutions. They're probably pretty sick of me calling over the past 2+ years, and I owe them big-time for their willingness to bang their heads against tough problems in my game.
I even ask my family (in real life) for design advice.

But please understand that there's no promise or guarantee that I will listen to your idea or advice.
I guess you can get mad about it, if you want to.

Just because you ask friends/family for advice and occasionally use an idea you like doesn't make you NOT stubborn. When the rift was removed you almost made it seem like you always intended it as a temporary experiment rather than just admit how badly it messed things up. It was an attitude like "Ah it didn't matter in the end I was just testing what would happen." While ppl playing were begging and pleading for you to change it.

Like cutting food values in half, you said it was funny while players were struggling to even get a bite of food, you complained about mass food reserves like they were a problem while the rest just wanted to not starve.

I'm not asking you to use any ideas I have, purple and farts big whoop, I'm not particularly bothered by it. But when you messed with iron and blamed the idea on Twisted rather than realising you're the one who actually physically changed it and twisted didn't do anything, YOU choose the changes Jason, remember? You say that yourself and yet you still tried to pass off the bad idea on someone else once you knew how bad it was. That bothered me. It's like you cherry pick your favourites and then brush them under the carpet when they don't work out.

Also you keep calling out bobo, egging him on multiple times, using the excuse that you're just 'having fun with it' even though you KNOW he will cause pandemonium for your players while you sit comfortably on the sidelines god mode and all, that's incredibly stubborn of you because you don't want to let bobo 'win'??? Because like many of us he's trying to make you see how the old murder system wasn't an issue? Instead you doubled down, overcomplicating everything yet again.

You're being very tsundere about your stubbornness Jason as I said being stubborn and prideful isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'm not even mad. Salty, yes but not angry. I think frustration is actually what I'm feeling right now.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-05-08 21:11:54)

Crumpaloo · 2020-05-08 21:43:59

Surely ideas the community as a whole agrees on shouldn't be just dismissed as a another "bad idea" if it keeps getting brought up time and time again. Even if that specific idea in itself is bad it should be a hint to what direction the community thinks the game should be going, and considering the community has 1000x the hours of playtime you do it would stand to reason you should take ideas that are universally agreed upon with more validity, should you not?

Ideas themselves do not have to be static, they can be molded, shaped into something more pleasing and workable, as such if the community has agreed upon 1 idea in particular, but it is not sound, it should be up to you to mold the idea into something workable right?

Laskara · 2020-05-09 00:06:03

ok I have to be clear here the old murder system absolutely was an issue and if he gives it back you're going to remember why it got changed

just about every lifetime was either a murder victim or genocide victim lifetime depending on how advanced your civ's tech tree was when the first greifer got into the kitchen and started running around on the outskirts of town murdering all your hunters so any bows were out in the woods somewhere so that they could mosey in and have a good old fashioned genocide without facing resistance for at least as long as it took for someone to make a new knife or bow

Spoonwood · 2020-05-09 00:49:22

Laskara wrote:

ok I have to be clear here the old murder system absolutely was an issue and if he gives it back you're going to remember why it got changed
just about every lifetime was either a murder victim or genocide victim lifetime depending on how advanced your civ's tech tree was when the first greifer got into the kitchen and started running around on the outskirts of town murdering all your hunters so any bows were out in the woods somewhere so that they could mosey in and have a good old fashioned genocide without facing resistance for at least as long as it took for someone to make a new knife or bow

The no solo change happened in February: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=9090

The Steam numbers were 21% red in February, and about 6% red in March.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-09 00:53:39

jasonrohrer wrote:

But the truth is that this is what world-class game design looks like. You're watching it happen, live.

So, here's the Steam Chart for OHOL with it red for many, many months including the past few months: https://steamcharts.com/app/595690#All

Jason suggested it before as a comparison, so here's the Steam Chart for Eco: https://steamcharts.com/app/382310 with plenty of green recently.

No shortage of red during a time when people are more inside of their living spaces than ever before, with other, older games in green at the same time.

Honestly, no one who was engaged in "world-class" design would ever have to say such a thing, it would come as apparent from the results.

Jason is thus either delusional or knowingly lying.

pein · 2020-05-09 01:30:42

Lightning wistedfangirl88 wrote:

I have no business in talking to a guy, who clearly lacks the mental maturity and capacity to debate their said ideas, over the current know facts, that begins responding with comments to mock the other person...just an overall waste of time to even bother...

you started the comment with a quote that has no logical sense and deep love toward Jasons bumhole so its hard to take anything you say as a fact or even logical

your whole comment was offensive with editing because you were concerned about generic thinking about people who cuss so you removed some harsh words

since you call things generic, quoting other people is generic, not having your own original ideas is generic, and acting like others expect you to is generic. everything has some patterns, so don't act like you know what you are talking about.

yepp it was a waste of time, you got angry then you quoted a shitty phrase which didn't even make sense coming from Jason then act so smart without saying anything smart, and then now you are butthurt that it backfired.

pein · 2020-05-09 01:34:58

Arcurus wrote:

lol yea looks like Lightning is forming a posse to hit Pein like an lightning ..
But maybe its the name Pein ... sounds little bit like Kain, so it could be kind of biblical karma ..
Not sure if quantum computing will be the rescue, but the subconsciousness seems to work quite similar, so there is a hope that it can break down NP-Hard problems.... the hope dies at last....

That type of element doesn't work against me.

pein · 2020-05-09 02:13:00

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, the people who say that I never take suggestions from the community are just expressing sour grapes because their favorite idea wasn't used.
The leadership system was pretty much designed entirely by Kinrany.
The life tokens by Twisted. Also the idea of homelands. And probably bottles, somewhere along the way.
The non-infinite map experiment (Rift) was inspired by Dodge.
The idea of tying killing to the leadership system came (this week) from StrongForce
Liquid Refreshments were suggested by DestinyCall (like the milk and broth pouch)
The food overhaul was designed with input from Fug, Twisted, and Miskas.
Way Stones were proposed by SirCaio

Remember, it's up to me to decide which ideas should be included in the game. Also, if you call me an idiot every other post, or keep harping on the same idea over and over, I tend to stop listening to you.

There were better-designed ideas than those thrown out in thrash. And you left out the essence from them, overly simplifying them so not even the people who gave the idea liked them.
If you think the second part applies to me (which your actions clearly suggest) I never called you an idiot per se, just analysing what you say and pointing out the obvious so others can see (its more fun that way). But I also pointed out every time others are wrong or if you are right, and that's just being objective. For example, the complaints about that their cant SID anymore to become an Eve.

And that sounds like a personal bias, which is quite childish. I personally won't care about opinions and a personal image, people who know me they know me, the others get their negative energies reflected back and they break, especially personal grunt which have no logical sense, they don't have to like me, they can disprove what I say logically and I will consider that.
Prove people wrong by doing something right. Races cut the content in 3-4 parts, tools slowed down the veterans, most of the new rules empowered attackers and griefers. Now that we have no bugs and anything major, could we have some new fun elements and game mechanics that reward people that care and punish does who don't?

You settled for mediocre ideas, and now you try to build upon them. Adjusting sliders instead of adding anything.

Experience counts for something, some of us are game testers longer ago than you a designer So you made 19 games? Guess what, some of us played more than 1000. Want to be unique? The more information people know, the more clear patterns are, there is always something similar to something else, maybe not so mainstream. Most of the mainstream things are taken over by other games because they work. Obviously nobody copies things that don't work elsewhere. There is the other end of the spectrum where nothing is original and everything is forced, but thats not rally the case most o times, getting inspired from somewhere else is not a crime.

fug · 2020-05-09 03:24:20

jasonrohrer wrote:

Am I stubborn, or am I just good at ignoring bad ideas?

Stubborn.

You will self sabotage the well beings of the game if it works to try to coax the players into playing in your specific vision of the game. You introduced war swords as butter knives (a known bug that was incredibly bad for the game both times you accidentally did it), you introduced incredibly easy engine scrapping as a means to get people to use fences, and you left players in the rift and currently are still sticking to the racial restrictions.

People get mad because they're passionate about the game you've made and we're the ones stuck with the consequences of bad choices you make as we're the ones who actually play the game at the end of the day. Do you think it was fun being stabbed to death with swords? Do you think it's fun to constantly have to remake engines because eventually you run into someone who wants to break it from in your family?

It's great you listen to us when it comes to things but not all of our suggestions are crazy ridiculous like wanting solo killing back. Is it really that crazy to expect the engine to be slightly more difficult to destroy? Think how hard it is to remove a way stone (which basically only existed to grief at one point or even fences. Twigs in the ground are more difficult to take down than it is to scrap an entire diesel engine and that is pretty stupid. That favor dream that produced the idea for fences really fucked things up for a little bit and is now the leading cause for engine destruction because you can't come to a middle ground with us.

If you want to influence the players you need to make things sensible to do. It's nonsense for players to make farming more annoying because eventually in x amount of hours someone is going to be a dick and destroy the engine. It does make sense for players to make more tacos/burritos when you buff them to feel more worth it. Players definitely see the game from a different angle from you and you've got to understand why people might not want to play a glorified waterboy for an hour. I'd ask you to try to see something from our viewpoint but with the whole ss13 fiasco it's very clear how you play games when given the freedom to do so.

Spoonwood · 2020-05-09 04:15:49

fug wrote:

People get mad because they're passionate about the game you've made and we're the ones stuck with the consequences of bad choices you make as we're the ones who actually play the game at the end of the day. Do you think it was fun being stabbed to death with swords?

Personally I just play 2HOL now (which is buggy, and the bugs annoy me... like trees one can't see, disappearing tarry spots, and natural objects that one can't always interact with buggy... but it's still better than race/biome restrictions, tool handicaps, and +10 pip hungry work nonsense) or something else now. I also haven't gotten killed by a sword, though I did have family members killed by one a few weeks after it came out. It was dumb.

fug wrote:

Think how hard it is to remove a way stone (which basically only existed to grief at one point or even fences.

There were waystone shrines a few days after they came out on server12. They did have a purpose there, and players there did appreciate them. I'm not saying that's all that much, but even when they had the blocking issue you mention, they weren't entirely bad. But, your point about engines is on point. There's no valid reason whatosever that an engine should be able to get scrapped that easily.

Jamie · 2020-05-09 05:15:20

Imagine that thread title out of context.

Grim_Arbiter · 2020-05-09 06:22:29

Jamie wrote:

Imagine that thread title out of context.

The FBI prob gets here from that occasionally.

Jamie · 2020-05-09 09:39:34

Grim_Arbiter wrote:

Jamie wrote:
Imagine that thread title out of context.
The FBI prob gets here from that occasionally.

Bet the dark web has a forum for serial killers.

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