Coming soon: mining changes

bpskotch · 2020-03-28 21:03:11

jasonrohrer wrote:

If you already have a homeland elsewhere, creating another well site will not dry up iron sites along that other ley line.

I want clarification on this statement.

"Well site" as in the 10 stones on the spring? Or are you saying that even if we construct a new well, we still won't be able to harvest new iron from that area?

If YES:
This is completely counter-intuitive. Why does a family expand its reach? To gain access to more resources. What this does is discourages the concept of even expanding. Why would you expand if there's nothing to be gained?

If NO:
Then I suppose that's acceptable in my opinion. Families should be able to expand to increase their grasp on resources. I do understand that just throwing 10 stones on a natural spring would make it too 'easy' to gain additional iron without any real additional work. (Not that bringing a shovel and using it once to dig is that much more effort, though).

EDIT:
Another thing that's been nagging me. Springs are all on a grid. We have horizontal ley lines. Why not vertical? Should not these veins etc. be able to appear vertically as well? Only on horizontal lines feels unnatural.

Last edited by bpskotch (2020-03-28 21:07:07)

pein · 2020-03-28 22:11:00

Back in the day when we had unlimited wells and it took 10 stone to make it, you complained that nobody upgrades them, they make more and more of them.

I told you that we need water deposits and bucket should be an upgrade and a restriction for higher-tech. It wasn't exactly what I said, but it was a pretty good update. Wells on ponds really limited the number of wells and the overall meta shifted, the eves needed different starting spots (tho ponds made it easier and players sucked so nobody made towns 50+ tiles from a water source anyway)

That's tech. Makes life easier, unlocks content. a bucket is a good example of what people want to make, instead of what they have to make.
They accept the need of a bucket, cause it makes sense realistically, but also it's a good gameplay element. It connects the different techs. You don't have a bucket yet? make one. Did you get a bucket? make a mine and upgrade the well. Now you can have cows or paint the walls.

The reason why people don't really make other things is that they cannot benefit from it.
Fences? they block you and they are ugly. I think it would be better if we could upgrade them over time and they would have hitpoints to dismantle them. Keys: you got that from Rust, and even there each key opens one door, but the very basic principle there is that you don't want to use a physical key, its not safe. Codelocks are way safer and more fun there, even the way doors have two sides and block others if they opened to the wrong side, it's a strategic advantage. it might not be realistic but it's good for gameplay.

I haven't played in a while and I saw a lot of cool items, it's hard to make a plan for each life, I like adapting to the situations, like big swamps, I can make adobe buildings easier, a lot of pine or stone or wood or whatever, it makes me faster to make some cool project. I guess I'm a bit of weirdo, cause I work 55 minutes and flex 5 minutes with it xD

It wouldn't be bad that we are instructed to do some of it, like quest randomizing a goal for you and a reward that allows further quests.
I don't think vanity items are useless, creating a different vibe for each city or at least family would make each experience fresh and memorable.

The resource system you made has flaws. When there is one single main resource, others won't matter that much, and the problem will always be the same: not enough water. And it's one way to do it so it's even worse, like Oxygen not included had 5 different ways to make water. Gather, recycle, desalinate, melt, burn hydrogen. And it all depends on the map which one is a better choice.
But most games go multiple equally important resources and your focus depends on which one you have the most, so certain activities can be better in certain cases.
For that, you would need a way to convert between the two. Iron could be a main resource if there are uses for it. I think the mining process with pick and eating meanwhile is cool, the only thing weird about it is that is a single tile mine. I would like to see roads to mines and industrial zones, that would need the problem of resources being hard to transport and easier to process in place. And generally to have a longer process converting the raw resources to usable steel. Like mining rocks, cutting in smaller pieces to be able to move a bit, using carts to move it. A chance that you get iron and a chance that you don't. A lot of waste material that would create clutter. That would be a good reason to have a tech to remove clutter by converting waste rock to used construction materials.

To have static work locations we would need a steady income of resources, even with the cost of higher usage. Ideally, you could always use the iron to make stuff, but your output wouldn't be enough to do so. So instead of nerfing the iron, we would need items that cost shittons of iron, several hours of output on a low level. There you got a situation where you can barely afford a hoe and a shovel with 2 per hour, and if you keep up, you could make a cage with 30 iron. This would actually require players to interact with the mine if they don't do the work they miss out on the hourly max output. The system where you just convert resources disregards the work and time. As a veteran, I could not get enough adobe for a new player who knows how to build a home. The two processes should be roughly the same. Even reverse. getting resources would be easy, but they would need more time to process into something useful. That would make their work more important.
Remember my family soup idea? When you made the stew, that was quite different from my idea, but still very similar. It's static, it's a lot of work, a lot of parts, when they are put together they give a good reward that makes the whole process worth it. I was teaching kids how to stew and they were doing it eventually and enjoying it a lot. People need jobs to do, be useful. There should be overwhelmingly lot of work and a lot of possibilities and workforce issues. Like we got this clay but we need 2 hours of works to make bricks out of it, but with 5 more people is just 1 hour. Now we can use that bricks to make a big furnace. Having the second furnace would be even better. So basically always a higher goal that is aking a lot of time at first, later takes less, but the next step takes more time. So while people survive, make excess food and resources, they can use that time to produce stuff that is removing the low tier but adds a higher tier.
So not everything runs out, everything is converted. low tier jobs would be useful, high tier jobs would be better but they wouldn't work without the lower tier so it would matter that the other player is new if he s dedicated he could make a profit for the family and not just be a burden for not using resources optimally.

Also by allowing to have a high iron amount you could have low water amount and some way to use that iron to improve water tech.
I don't know exactly, like set up a rain collector which needs 50 iron. Sure it's expensive but the city gets a steady income of water which in time will pay off. Or drill into a bottle tree, which destroys the iron tool costing 30 iron, but gives a one time amount of 50 water. Build a bomb that removes a blocking element from another spring.

Reversely use water to wash waste rock and get iron and clay out of it. Same way, water is by the hour, starts off with a low recharge rate and the tech increases it. When is low, you can get a bit of water to water bushes and plant something, when is higher, you can use industrially.
Add pipes from the well to the mine and as long as you use some water output for the mine you get more iron out of it.
Or a greenhouse that takes in water and produces plants a bit better but it takes work to convert those resources.
You could always stop the valve if needed and just do the basic stuff but if you could afford it, you could produce more. But if you don't use it, it would just go to waste. So not 33 times 10 water from a deep well, but 20 per hour for example. Right now we can just put all to cisterns and focus on upgrade. It should take workers into consideration. If you don't work on it, you get 5 output. Minimally you could empty the well so it recharges but you could send workers who can double the output. The upgrade would be 1 more water per upgrade, multiple upgrades but working on it would double that too. Small cisterns would only allow bucket on them, big cisterns would allow water tanks, huge cisterns would allow barrels. Each of that could be used on different tech, also it would prevent people from wasting all water on tech and remove the ability to make food.

That being said, the farming game could be different, first people should dig out a bigger slot of workspace, then plant things, fertile should just reduce the plant growth timer. Then that could be upgraded into a better farming slot, then into a glasshouse. Or just make multiple of them, but that would be a bit less effective.

Basically, instead of converting a nice world into an ugly one, convert an ugly one into a nice one. Switch upgrades left and right to increase output, and heavy sinks that take away that extra resources. And that being said, not just 3-4 upgrades to water, at least 10 different upgrades or even more, exponentially higher and higher cost but a bit more output per hour and all that depending on work too, so not just give 100 water, give 50 for basic work and 50 more for working on it, manning the equipment, spending time.

Karrots · 2020-03-28 23:51:16

TL;DR anyone? My eyes cannot do this text wall bs right now.

jasonrohrer · 2020-03-29 00:16:54

Bpscotch, yes, it means that if you dig another well elsewhere, it won't uncover new iron.

This isn't 100% settled, but that's the way it is for now.

Otherwise, folks would just run around placing wells to unlock free iron all over the map, and bring it all home.

I'm still looking for a better solution to prevent this and still allow expansion.

You CAN expand by taking an engine somewhere and making a mine. But you can't expand by starting from scratch, unless you want to do it iron-free....

You CAN expand your water resources by digging outpost wells. But I think it's less of a problem, because water is so quickly consumed and so bulky to transport. You could also run around and get water from ponds all over the place, but people don't generally do that.

But one piece of iron? That will make a tool that can be used dozens of times. Iron is very dense. You can haul 12 pieces in a regular cart. That's enough for 12 tools, with hundreds of total tool uses.

Using buckets, a cart can only hold 40 water, which can be used to water 40 plants.

So people don't generally run around building low-tech wells just to bring cheap water home. But they would definitely do that for cheap iron.

Anyway, we somehow need to differentiate a real "outpost village" from a "fake" one that is just used to bring free resources home. One option is some way for people to "maintain" an outpost area over generations, but it's pretty fragile. Like if you needed to go "dig some mud" on an outpost vein every 30 minutes for 3 hours. Seems like a solo player might be able to pull that off over several lives, though, thus unlocking free iron without actually settling there.

testo · 2020-03-29 00:33:12

I stand by my other post:
"Play the game the way I want you to play, stay in your village and fight with eachother"

pein · 2020-03-29 00:58:29

Yeah, fake outposts are like: girl takes a set of Newcomen clothes, steals the only horse with some steel or tools then rides random direction for 5-600 tiles and makes a new camp than others wonder why the heck they got a horse but no tech at all and why little Hope is fully clothed when everybody else is naked.

I mean if you consider it, people either stay back at the city for the whole life or they run around the map for whole life, there isn't much in between that you go 2000 and go back or give others stuff and get some and go home. If someone really wants to pseudo eve then just enter a space portal naked and dump her out far away so she can start over, maybe require at least 2 others to go with you.

bpskotch · 2020-03-29 01:25:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

You CAN expand by taking an engine somewhere and making a mine. But you can't expand by starting from scratch, unless you want to do it iron-free....

I'm sure you see the issue in this as well as me, which is at that point, it no longer matters whether you put the diesel mine at home, or at the expanded area, it will still cost the limited kerosene and it becomes that there is literally no advantage to the outpost whatsoever (aside the well, which as you put well is rather bulky to haul, but people like me still have done it on a tire cart horse! Brown town before wipe had an emergency deep well that looks like it got used all the way up until the wipe)

So, at that point expansion, what does it yield? Just a bit of water. Otherwise the resources there could have been easily gathered by cart without fussing over a well. Wild food's value is so negligible that its not even worth mentioning or giving it any sort of "value" to make an outpost worth it.

So the way I see it, any town is basically a ticking time bomb, where once the diesel-free iron veins run out, a town is most certain to die unless by some miracle gingers cooperate and give kerosene. Which they won't, I recommend seeing my other post.

The only reason towns had oil in the last map was because people like me and others went out of their way over multiple lives to secure resources to get kerosene to keep towns running, then distribute it. Not because of trade. Again the vets are basically carrying everything.

Elsayal · 2020-03-29 01:30:38

bpskotch wrote:

gingers cooperate and give kerosene. Which they won't

They will, not for profit, but because they may end up in another town. So it's clever to give kerosen to all families.

bpskotch wrote:

the vets are basically carrying everything.

That's what they should do. And that's what they do before the update too.

mina · 2020-03-29 02:31:22

fug wrote:

I'm not upset because there's not unlimited iron. I'm upset because of how much you DIDN'T think any of this through. If this update was pushed Thursday or Friday the game would have been completely unplayable all weekend. You explicitly had to be told how much iron is needed to even get through the tech tree because you couldn't be bothered to check yourself and just picked a random number essentially. It's frustrating to see you so far disconnected from what your game is and what you want it to be I mean Jason you were measuring coverable distance in cars. CARS.
It's frustrating to spend three days arguing about this kind of update when you're essentially sticking your fingers in your ears blocking out what people say. Diesel mines stopped getting used because oil got nerfed. People would much rather have 40 water vs 6 iron. These things can be buffed, these things can be changed, but not when you're telling someone who actually plays your game your PERCEIVED idea on the issue. People do not use content if its bad. Diesel mining picks are bad, cars are bad, planes are bad and this is because you wanted oil to be limited. That's OK but trying to say "oh no, people will use my crappy pick given the option to walk further or stay close to home" is just plain you not understanding.
Should I be out here telling you exploits or letting people break whatever update you're trying to put out? Should I be running over to the discord telling people "Hey, you can dump items into bad biomes by dying in them or by riding a horse to a bad area biome, swapping the horse cart for the item on the good biome then moving in the bad biome to displace the item." How many times have I outed bugs that I've liked in order to keep the game from being abused in different ways? We're on the same team here Jason. I don't spit venom because I dislike you, it's difficult trying to bridge a gap you cannot see from your viewpoint.
It feels like you keep sucking the soul out of this game and replacing it with "interesting things." Do you ever look at moelifes onetech? twohours onetech? Even YaH has been improving on things and then you look at the changes we keep getting. It's like watching a bright student slowly fall into mediocrity because the passion is gone in his learning. Those games get love. We get nerfs.

THIS

Jason, it legitimately makes me sad to see you completely disregard the feedback of the many vet players with hundreds of hours of in-game experience who give you constructive feedback. People who are trying to HELP get this game closer to your vision. I stopped playing this game months ago due to how unplayable it was and have been extremely disheartened to see you twist players' words or latch onto one part of someone's feedback and ignore the rest of it, then take it out of context and run with that cherry-picked, incomplete thought.

I love this game. I truly do. I understand that this is very much a social experiment kind of game, hence your non-standard approach to just about everything. And it's created a beautiful work of art.

But as time has gone on, this art has become less and less functional as an actual game. And you have developed much more severe tunnel-vision in terms of listening to your players feedback. You have stated yourself that you spend a lot of time fixing things in the game... which means you don't spend that time actually PLAYING the game. There's only 24 hours in a day, after all. And yet you create massive overhauls to the game based on your own experiments and, as fug says, sticking your fingers in your ears blocking out what people say when they tell you that things are NOT working in a long-term, sustainable way.

You know what my favorite type of lives mine are (or, were)? Being an explorer to find resources for my village. This play-style is completely extinct now due to the family specialization, homeland, and mining updates. Ok, no big deal - play a different way, right? Second favorite type of life: building. But guess what - I can't do that efficiently now either because of the tool slot limitations. I know I am not alone in my frustration that you are railroading into one play-style, nor am I the first to bring it up.

Twisted has been one of the most positive supporters of your updates, regardless of how limiting and dysfunctional they are. The fact that even HE is getting fed up with this? Doesn't this even remotely give you any red flags?

But you know what makes me really sad? Knowing with almost absolute certainty that you'll read this and go "Oh. Just another Spoonwood. Just another complainer." and completely either ignore my frustrations OR take one thing out of context and completely shut me down. "Hi, mina. *Boom* This is why you are wrong." nail in coffin. Jason has spoken. There is no other perspective. This is the way. End of discussion.

DestinyCall · 2020-03-29 02:47:22

I agree 100% with everything you just said, mina. I feel so frustrated with the development direction of this game. I love OHOL and want it to succeed. It is agonizing to watch it get slowly chewed apart, update by update, as Jason cannibalizes his own game.

Morti · 2020-03-29 07:04:07

jasonrohrer wrote:

Bpscotch, yes, it means that if you dig another well elsewhere, it won't uncover new iron.
This isn't 100% settled, but that's the way it is for now.
Otherwise, folks would just run around placing wells to unlock free iron all over the map, and bring it all home.
I'm still looking for a better solution to prevent this and still allow expansion.
You CAN expand by taking an engine somewhere and making a mine. But you can't expand by starting from scratch, unless you want to do it iron-free....

You CAN expand your water resources by digging outpost wells. But I think it's less of a problem, because water is so quickly consumed and so bulky to transport. You could also run around and get water from ponds all over the place, but people don't generally do that.
But one piece of iron? That will make a tool that can be used dozens of times. Iron is very dense. You can haul 12 pieces in a regular cart. That's enough for 12 tools, with hundreds of total tool uses.
Using buckets, a cart can only hold 40 water, which can be used to water 40 plants.
So people don't generally run around building low-tech wells just to bring cheap water home. But they would definitely do that for cheap iron.

Anyway, we somehow need to differentiate a real "outpost village" from a "fake" one that is just used to bring free resources home. One option is some way for people to "maintain" an outpost area over generations, but it's pretty fragile. Like if you needed to go "dig some mud" on an outpost vein every 30 minutes for 3 hours. Seems like a solo player might be able to pull that off over several lives, though, thus unlocking free iron without actually settling there.

Jason, I love you.

Thanks for the fun.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 07:33:25

Being able to make infinite outposts in an infinite world but having a limit on iron with muddy veins is just plain bad.

Some players think they are doing a service by digging wells to make more outposts when they are actually making veins unusable for other Eves that would join in the area+creating ironless villages for confused players that wont understand why their village has no iron and cant even know where the original village is, effectivly wandering around to find iron which is the exact opposite of what this update is supposed to achieve.

Update needs at least to get fixed because broken currently to see if it actually works but it seems like making outposts is actually real bad and you might as well kill the lineage since it will spawn a new Eve which equals more iron.

Islands = limited number of veins and springs = easy to understand for players + outposts possible and not actually bad

Add a time gate to that and you have an effective limit of iron in time x number of veins which applies over every generations

fug · 2020-03-29 07:35:49

Hurr durr listen to the guy who has 0 planning ability. Add islands, and more things people advise you against. That way you keep fucking updates like this one

Dodge · 2020-03-29 07:47:49

fug wrote:

Hurr durr listen to the guy who has 0 planning ability. Add islands, and more things people advise you against. That way you keep fucking updates like this one

What was your idea again?

Oh right add a one week time gate on every veins but keep the map infinite.

So players can wander around for weeks to get some measily pieces of iron, most stupid idea i ever heard, talk about planning abilities.

" That way you keep fucking updates like this one "

Me? I never had the idea of muddy veins your brain is messed up.

fug · 2020-03-29 07:51:26

Dodge wrote:

fug wrote:
Hurr durr listen to the guy who has 0 planning ability. Add islands, and more things people advise you against. That way you keep fucking updates like this one
What was your idea again?
Oh right add a one week time gate on every veins but keep the map infinite.
So players can wander around for weeks to get some measily pieces of iron, most stupid idea i ever heard, talk about planning abilities.
" That way you keep fucking updates like this one "
Me? I never had the idea of muddy veins your brain is messed up.

My suggestion was having things work like ponds. Slowly respawns if you do nothing or using newcomen/diesel to make stuff on demand. Glad to see you can't read and only suggest us being in the rift again.

Dodge · 2020-03-29 08:01:50

fug wrote:

My suggestion was having things work like ponds. Slowly respawns if you do nothing or using newcomen/diesel to make stuff on demand. Glad to see you can't read and only suggest us being in the rift again.

Yeah no on an infninite map you would have to nerf to the ground the number of veins per x tile for this to even remotly work, players wandering around for half their life to get some iron from the "ponds".

Most annoying and dumb idea, try again.

Cantface · 2020-03-29 08:10:55

</3

sticking to stardew right now after logging in to this. I got the tractor mod vroom vroom :D Dirty filthy stinking cheater that I am~

Was gonna post some pics yet suddenly my motivation is gone. Ah well. I miss you guys! stay warm, hydrated and fed + I hope you're all doing okay, Dev included. The community is the one thing that brings me back at this point tbh y'all are creative, fun and interesting peeps.

Obviously I don't care for this update at all but my opinion is probably better off in the trash so yay.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-03-29 08:14:21)

Morti · 2020-03-29 08:15:16

I'll let you two love birds have your space.
I'll be in game if anyone needs me, as per usual.
That's where both of you should be too, farming wild gooseberries and giving each other some chill time.
Maybe you'll be born each other's kid, and you won't even know it.

Just forget, about the tension on this forum, walk 200 meters, and start over.

Morti · 2020-03-29 08:16:21

Cantface wrote:

</3
sticking to stardew right now after logging in to this. I got the tractor mod vroom vroom Dirty filthy stinking cheater that I am~
Was gonna post some pics yet suddenly my motivation is gone. Ah well. I miss you guys! stay warm, hydrated and fed + I hope you're all doing okay, Dev included. The community is the one thing that brings me back at this point tbh y'all are creative, fun and interesting peeps.
Obviously I don't care for this update at all but my opinion is probably better off in the trash so yay.

Join me for some wild gooseberry wrangling. I could use another potter.

bpskotch · 2020-04-01 02:11:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

A family can branch out to other locations by making a second engine to establish an outpost

So following this directive, fully intending in the future to add a diesel engine to a vein so I can use kerosene to obtain iron, I started establishing an outpost. Muddy veins were near, which I checked, so that I'd be able to easily get from the well site to the vein. I brought minimal iron, made shovel on site, and dug my well, only to find the veins become "sunken" and then completely despawn. Was this what you intended Jason? I would think the veins would just change to another state similar to collapsed so that I can still add a diesel engine, but now they're completely gone and the only way I can use a diesel mining operation is to go off the premises.

Cogito · 2020-04-01 03:29:34

bpskotch wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
A family can branch out to other locations by making a second engine to establish an outpost
So following this directive, fully intending in the future to add a diesel engine to a vein so I can use kerosene to obtain iron, I started establishing an outpost. Muddy veins were near, which I checked, so that I'd be able to easily get from the well site to the vein. I brought minimal iron, made shovel on site, and dug my well, only to find the veins become "sunken" and then completely despawn. Was this what you intended Jason? I would think the veins would just change to another state similar to collapsed so that I can still add a diesel engine, but now they're completely gone and the only way I can use a diesel mining operation is to go off the premises.

I agree, this is a bit annoying.

Have you tried putting the engine on first, and if so can you build the well afterwards?

bpskotch · 2020-04-01 04:02:14

Cogito wrote:

I agree, this is a bit annoying.
Have you tried putting the engine on first, and if so can you build the well afterwards?

I haven't but that also struck me as a possibility, I figure that will probably stop the transition. I mainly wanted to bring this to Jason's attention so that perhaps some sort of compromise could be made. I would try it but I currently don't have access to an engine on BS2 XD

happynova · 2020-04-01 23:37:23

You know, having given this a good, long think, I've decided that for right now, I'm out. I may come back to the game later, especially if this gets tweaked. But the game I want to play isn't the one where the only good strategy involves strictly holding myself back from doing anything that isn't 100% iron-efficient, no matter how fun or interesting or otherwise useful it might be, while lecturing less veteran players about how they're dooming us all every time they pick up an only-slightly-hungry baby or try to help the farm by making a steel hoe or waste a shovel use by burying a relative. I have enough stress and frustration right now, and no desire to play something where I can't really succeed unless I'm willing to heap a lot more of it on myself and others.

Glassius · 2020-04-02 00:29:28

Maybe make mining more fun?

DestinyCall · 2020-04-02 00:37:52

If nothing else, watching the effect these changes have had on OHOL has taught me a valuable lesson in always leaving "room to fail" in your game design.

Challenge is good. Struggle is important to give your accomplishments meaning. Over coming difficult obstacles can be very satisfying. But there are many kinds of obstacles in this game. The challenging controls, the limited view range, the complex tech tree are ALL obstacles that need to be overcome. And learning involves making mistakes. A lot of them.

Doing something exactly perfect is VERY hard. It takes a lot of practice to get that good. And in the meantime, you will not be good at what you do. You might even be a burden to those around you. Messing up important things, breaking stuff by accident, wasting resources. When the entire village is dependent on everyone doing their part to keep things running smoothly, there is no safe space for noobs to explore and learn the game. If we want our village to live, we can't tolerate innocent mistakes or ignorant choices. We have to become the "fun police" to keep everyone in line and working hard.

Keeping the village alive stops being a fun challenge and becomes a burden.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-04-02 03:47:33)

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