Your Lineages Are Doomed To Die

sigmen4020 · 2020-01-15 11:03:48

Twisted wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
32: The Ferinas: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5799932
33: The Browns: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5799940

Both of these are still alive.
There's several others that are still alive or were alive until very recently. It seems to me you're just posting every Eve in hopes of making it seem like lineages die out sooner than they actually do?

He's mostly still going on about families not surviving updates, and that is apparently a big deal. Yet all the families he's posted so far that's died out hasn't died due to updates.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 12:54:25

Twisted wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
32: The Ferinas: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5799932
33: The Browns: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5799940

Both of these are still alive.
There's several others that are still alive or were alive until very recently. It seems to me you're just posting every Eve in hopes of making it seem like lineages die out sooner than they actually do?

They will die soon if they have not already died by the time you read this. This game takes place in the future. The universe might be 20 billion years old. Let's suppose that one lineage survived from Monday until Friday. That's 7200 hours. 432,000 OHOL years. That's .0000216 of the age of the universe. There exist 86,400 seconds in a day. So, such a lineage wouldn't even last 2 seconds of a day. 2 seconds of a day isn't very long. It's ever so little time. It's not even close to a long amount of time. It's even further away from an eternity.

Jason had planned to kill off other lineages since Monday even if they had survived from Monday until Thursday. Why would they try to have long lineages when it is impossible to do so? Why would you try to live for an entire day, if you couldn't live for 5 minutes? Why would you try to live for an entire day if it was impossible for you to live for 10 seconds?

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 13:04:42

DestinyCall wrote:

I had no idea we had this many Eves in a single day. No wonder the Eve spawns move west so quickly.

I've included low-pop lineages (Eve has one child suffices for a lineage). But, most of them are bs2 lineages.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-01-15 13:04:57)

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 13:09:05

34: The Mikhailovs: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5801756

35: The Alexs: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5801770

36: The Sugars: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5801841

sigmen4020 · 2020-01-15 13:27:14

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
I had no idea we had this many Eves in a single day. No wonder the Eve spawns move west so quickly.
I've included low-pop lineages (Eve has one child suffices for a lineage). But, most of them are bs2 lineages.

Why count low-pop lineages at all? Doesn't that seem that kinda counter-intuitive. Or do you want low pop lineages to last for weeks too? And if your answer is yes, why?

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 13:41:06

sigmen4020 wrote:

Why count low-pop lineages at all? Doesn't that seem that kinda counter-intuitive. Or do you want low pop lineages to last for weeks too? And if your answer is yes, why?

No, it's not counter-intuitive, since low-pop lineages are lineages, and this thread concerns lineages.

Sure, why shouldn't low pop lineages have the ability to last for weeks?

All servers run on the same code except for maybe... protection against wipes so far I know. If long-lasting lineages will come into existence, then it will be necessary to make long-lasting low-pop lineages possible also.

JasonY · 2020-01-15 13:55:12

Spoonwood is actually right about this, all lineages are doomed to die. But that's kind of the point.

I actually just lived a life as Eve sugars kid and they are actually doing pretty good. If you look at last words you can probably see which one I was.

Even though they are doomed, It was a nice life. We made a nice little village, struggled early on but managed to pull through and get up to sheep our lives. It is true that they will likely won't make it past deep wells but can't you just enjoy life without getting too attached to a lineage.

I'm doomed to be hated by all but I still enjoy myself.

PS: Using my own tricks against me won't work, Immitation is the greatest form of flattery. So anyone that has done it, Thanks. I'll keep doing it until I'm bored or if and when the moderators intervene.

PPS: The rules of the game are you that you cannot change or move around words in the quote itself. I only delete parts of it when I'm correcting.

For example "I think spoonwood should not be banned" becomes "I think spoonwood should be banned"

Last edited by JasonY (2020-01-15 14:05:09)

DestinyCall · 2020-01-15 14:11:50

JasonY wrote:

Spoonwood is actually right about this, all lineages are doomed to die. But that's kind of the point.

I actually just lived a life as Eve sugars kid and they are actually doing pretty good. If you look at last words you can probably see which one I was.
Even though they are doomed, It was a nice life. We made a nice little village, struggled early on but managed to pull through and get up to sheep our lives. It is true that they will likely won't make it past deep wells but can't you just enjoy life without getting too attached to a lineage.

I'm doomed to be hated by all but I still enjoy myself.

PS: Using my own tricks against me won't work, Immitation is the greatest form of flattery. So anyone that has done it, Thanks. I'll keep doing it until I'm bored or if and when the moderators intervene.

PPS: The rules of the game are you that you cannot change or move around words in the quote itself. I only delete parts of it when I'm correcting.
For example "I think spoonwood should not be banned" becomes "I think spoonwood should be banned"

That explains why most of your quotes look like gibberish.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-15 14:46:58

Spoonwood wrote:

sigmen4020 wrote:
Why count low-pop lineages at all? Doesn't that seem that kinda counter-intuitive. Or do you want low pop lineages to last for weeks too? And if your answer is yes, why?
No, it's not counter-intuitive, since low-pop lineages are lineages, and this thread concerns lineages.
Sure, why shouldn't low pop lineages have the ability to last for weeks?
All servers run on the same code except for maybe... protection against wipes so far I know. If long-lasting lineages will come into existence, then it will be necessary to make long-lasting low-pop lineages possible also.

I have to agree with sigmen4020. On low population servers, you are essentially playing "solo". Having a child isn't expected or assumed to be likely. I don't think it is reasonable to expect your lineage to continue, unless you are intentionally coordinating its long-term survival with other players using Discord or something. In fact, if you had a group of dedicated players who were willing to keep the chain from breaking, you could probably succeed at keeping a lineage alive much longer in a low population setting. Since everyone in the project would be working to keep the family alive, as long as you made sure to confirm player identity every time a child was born, you should be safe from griefing.

You would need at least two people playing at all times - one person to be the "mother" and another player to be the "baby". A third active player would be useful to provide redundancy and extend the fertile window, in case someone died at the wrong time or by mistake. More active players would be nice, but not really necessary. And more players would also increase the risk of introducing outside players into the lineage, since it would be easier to lose track of player identity. The biggest threat would be accidental death, since the active population in your village would likely remain very low at all times. Another danger would be lack of coordination, since you need to time your deaths carefully to ensure that you are old enough to continue the line when your mother is ready to die. If you started right after an update, you would have all week before the server update would endanger your family line.

Keeping everyone coordinated and making sure that someone was playing at all hours of the day and night would be a major feat. But technically, there's no reason why a low population lineage couldn't be very long. However ... I think it is unrealistic to expect long lineages on low pop servers as a normal thing. Most of the time, people join low pop servers to play by themselves. Larger communities have occasionally utilized low pop servers for group projects. But if you log into an empty server, it is understood that you will be born as an Eve, but you're unlikely to have any children. I don't see anything wrong with that. A lonely life is the price you pay for living on your own. You don't need to worry about other people messing with your stuff, but you also don't get to benefit from other players carrying on your work when you are dead. I don't see that as a design flaw. It is a necessary feature of solo-play.

For that reason, it doesn't make sense to include short lineages from low-pop servers as an example of a problem that Jason needs to fix. Most of the time, a short lineage on a low-pop server is perfectly fine. You join the server, you play your life as an Eve, and you die at 60 years old ... and then you play again. That is the expected pattern on a low-pop server. I would only consider it a problem if you were intentionally trying to extend your family line, only to have your lineage cut short due some kind of technical fault that prevented coordinated players from keeping a village alive long-term on the low pop server. If the reason the family died out was simply the low server population itself, that isn't worth reporting since it isn't a glitch or programming fault or design flaw.

In summary, I think you are correct that it should be POSSIBLE to maintain a long lineage on any server. But I don't think it makes sense to expect all lineages to be long. Especially on low pop servers.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-15 15:33:25)

Villas · 2020-01-15 14:58:14

I got Spoonwood’s point. But he is too much extreme, he will always pick the most extreme example and disguise the facts so people can agree with him. We started playing about the same time and his posts were always like this. I remember he complaining about why we couldn’t use a modified version of the game to insta suicid at any age anymore.
Man, we all are doomed in real life as well, if we turn the age of the universe in one day, we will live a life of microseconds, so I should quit living because of that? Man even the earth will be consumed by the sun one day, everything is doomed, it’s the destiny of all things, the entropy will go higher and higher. Also, if eternity was 1 day, few seconds would still be eternity.

I agree that there should be something to prevent forced family extinction like why happens when the server is updated.

But lineages end, even in real life we had lineages being extincted, animals being extincted. Besides that, the game isn’t necessarily simulating earth’s civilizations. It’s an unknown world where women pop out of nowhere with the ability of self fertilization, like if someone was studying a kind of bacteria or an advanced civilization was simulating some scenarios to test how human beings would survive. We don’t even know if we are a simulation here in “real life”.

Don’t use extreme exemples and people might give you more credibility, you have some points, but you end up destroying them when you use fallacies.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 15:49:29

DestinyCall wrote:

In fact, if you had a group of dedicated players who were willing to keep the chain from breaking, you could probably succeed at keeping a lineage alive much longer in a low population setting.

No. It could be longer in the mathematical sense as the Boots family showed. However, it could not be much longer sub specie aeternitatis, since the difference between something like half a second and 2 seconds isn't all that great in comparison to the length of the day.

DestinyCall wrote:

If you started right after an update, you would have all week before the server update would endanger your family line.

The players who would do that would be on the discord. I think that they would be likely to know that Jason was planning to kill off their lineage if they lasted that long. Do you think rational actors want to get limited in the potential of what they can achieve?

DestinyCall wrote:

But technically, there's no reason why a low population lineage couldn't be very long.

I couldn't disagree more. An OHOL week is a long time? Sub species aeternitatis one OHOL week is very short. In the future, humanity would have the knowledge of how long the universe has existed. I know you're capable of making calculations Destiny. I made some relevant calculations in this previous comment if you want to see how such calculations get done and missed that comment: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 452#p86452 Astronomy texts, and the book The Clock of the Long Now as I recall, also do them.

DestinyCall wrote:

But if you log into an empty server, it is understood that you will be born as an Eve, but you're unlikely to have any children. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I do see something wrong with that. The public game even on a custom server, not playing on your own private server, is supposed to be a game of parenting with at least one child, is it not? It's not suppose to be a civilization building game where parenting is included if it just so happens, is it? It's supposed to be a multiplayer survival game of parenting and civilization building, correct? If one is unlikely to have a single child, it's not likely that one will end up playing a game of parenting. So, I see a big design flaw here.

Bots could ensure that a game of parenting likely to occur in the custom server context.

DestinyCall wrote:

Most of the time, a short lineage on a low-pop server is perfectly fine.

When that happens the female characters often have no children. Not having any children as likely seems like a big design flaw in a game where parenting has higher status than civilization building.

Bots as children, possibly only if the mother doesn't have any alive by a certain age, would resolve that lack of parenting issue for players playing as female. Low pop lineages wouldn't necessarily survive without human players coming back, because who knows if a bot could survive long-term?

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 15:54:22

Villas wrote:

Man, we all are doomed in real life as well, if we turn the age of the universe in one day, we will live a life of microseconds, so I should quit living because of that?

You could be the ancestor of some living being millions of years from now. Or you could have a positive influence on someone who is such an ancestor. Neither of those is possible in OHOL.

Villas wrote:

Also, if eternity was 1 day, few seconds would still be eternity.

A few seconds equals a day? 2 seconds = 86,400 seconds? I don't think so. Pretty sure you have a contradiction there.

Villas · 2020-01-15 16:29:27

Spoonwood wrote:

Villas wrote:
Also, if eternity was 1 day, few seconds would still be eternity.
A few seconds equals a day? 2 seconds = 86,400 seconds? I don't think so. Pretty sure you have a contradiction there.

In this case, yes. It blew up my mind when studies it at university, when we start studying Differential and Integral Calculus we mess a lot with the “number” infinite and zeros, so we have to make crazy maths to approach a value when X tends to a number, interesting things happen when X tends to 0 or infinite. For example, 1/x when x tends to 0 is equals to infinite.

Eternity is the same as infinite (I know there are some semantic differences, but I’m this case we are talking about a lineage that starts at 0 and goes until infinite). Infinite divided by any number (but 0) is still infinite. 2 seconds is 43,200 times lower than infinite, but infinite/43200 = infinite. So in this case, yes, 2 seconds = 86,400 seconds. Because you said 2 seconds = infinite/43200, so 2 seconds = infinite, 86,400 seconds = infinite if 1 day = infinite. As I said, you disguised the values and facts, so people will tend to agree with you, you used seconds because it’s a very short amount of time. You compre things like lineages with the age of universe, gosh!

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 18:43:53

Villas wrote:

In this case, yes. It blew up my mind when studies it at university, when we start studying Differential and Integral Calculus we mess a lot with the “number” infinite and zeros, so we have to make crazy maths to approach a value when X tends to a number, interesting things happen when X tends to 0 or infinite. For example, 1/x when x tends to 0 is equals to infinite.

That's not the only way of founding calculus. Infinitesmials can get used as Robinson's work and non-standard analysis showed. But, I digress.

Villas wrote:

Eternity is the same as infinite (I know there are some semantic differences, but I’m this case we are talking about a lineage that starts at 0 and goes until infinite). Infinite divided by any number (but 0) is still infinite. 2 seconds is 43,200 times lower than infinite, but infinite/43200 = infinite. So in this case, yes, 2 seconds = 86,400 seconds.

Since we'll have to come back to talking about game time which is discrete, I don't know why you've used differential and integral calculus. Game time is discrete after all. A countably infinite number divided by any number is still countably infinite, sure. To understand things better, we can consider a countably infinite set where a subset of it gets removed. I hope you recall that, where X and Y are sets, (X / Y) = (X ^ c(Y)), where '^' stands for intersection, and 'c' stands for set-theoretic complement. But, what if X is the universal set?

Consider the countably infinite set

A := {1, 2, 3, ..., n, (n+1), ...} (maybe we should use the rational numbers instead, but since this involves cardinality, we may as well use the natural numbers since they're simpler)

where {1} gets removed is {2, 3, 4, ... n, (n+1), ...} is still countably infinite.

Sure, letting B = {1, 2} and C = {1, 2, ..., n, (n +1), ..., 86,400}, |(A-B)| = |(A-C)|, where the bars get used for cardinality.

But, does {1, 2} have the same size as {1, 2, ..., n, (n +1), ..., 86,400}? Nope. So, 2 seconds doesn't equal 86,400 seconds.

How did you go wrong? I think you forgot a second is a measurement of time. Since it's a measurement, we needed to invoke the cardinality of a set directly. Once we do that, we simply can't have 2 seconds equaling 86,400 seconds. We would only have two similar countably infinite sets.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 18:53:10

37: Another Feuer Lineage: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5802312

38: Another Candy Lineage: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5802610

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 19:00:44

43: A Death Lineage: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5798359

44: The Royal Family: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5802655

DestinyCall · 2020-01-15 21:08:35

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
In fact, if you had a group of dedicated players who were willing to keep the chain from breaking, you could probably succeed at keeping a lineage alive much longer in a low population setting.
No. It could be longer in the mathematical sense as the Boots family showed. However, it could not be much longer sub specie aeternitatis, since the difference between something like half a second and 2 seconds isn't all that great in comparison to the length of the day.
DestinyCall wrote:
If you started right after an update, you would have all week before the server update would endanger your family line.
The players who would do that would be on the discord. I think that they would be likely to know that Jason was planning to kill off their lineage if they lasted that long. Do you think rational actors want to get limited in the potential of what they can achieve?
DestinyCall wrote:
But technically, there's no reason why a low population lineage couldn't be very long.
I couldn't disagree more. An OHOL week is a long time? Sub species aeternitatis one OHOL week is very short. In the future, humanity would have the knowledge of how long the universe has existed. I know you're capable of making calculations Destiny. I made some relevant calculations in this previous comment if you want to see how such calculations get done and missed that comment: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 452#p86452 Astronomy texts, and the book The Clock of the Long Now as I recall, also do them.
DestinyCall wrote:
But if you log into an empty server, it is understood that you will be born as an Eve, but you're unlikely to have any children. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I do see something wrong with that. The public game even on a custom server, not playing on your own private server, is supposed to be a game of parenting with at least one child, is it not? It's not suppose to be a civilization building game where parenting is included if it just so happens, is it? It's supposed to be a multiplayer survival game of parenting and civilization building, correct? If one is unlikely to have a single child, it's not likely that one will end up playing a game of parenting. So, I see a big design flaw here.
Bots could ensure that a game of parenting likely to occur in the custom server context.
DestinyCall wrote:
Most of the time, a short lineage on a low-pop server is perfectly fine.
When that happens the female characters often have no children. Not having any children as likely seems like a big design flaw in a game where parenting has higher status than civilization building.
Bots as children, possibly only if the mother doesn't have any alive by a certain age, would resolve that lack of parenting issue for players playing as female. Low pop lineages wouldn't necessarily survive without human players coming back, because who knows if a bot could survive long-term?

You lost me at "sub specie aeternitatis".

...

I don't need my lineage to last until the heat death of the universe. I'm not that greedy. I'd be perfectly happy with a game state that allowed strong lineages to last for a week or two. The Rift proved that playing in the same city can get boring, so chances are good that many towns wouldn't survive forever even if everything was perfect. People get bored quickly. People want new adventures.

The tricky part is balance the new and the old. Too much rapid-cycling and nothing feels real. You lose everything you build too fast to grow attached and it loses all meaning. But if change is too slow, you end up with stagnation. The lack of progression is boring. You run out of things to do. Nothing matters.

Finding the perfect pace is tricky. And even more challenging, it differs from person to person. Some players thrive on exploring new frontiers every life and other players prefer the comforts of a familiar town.

Personally, I am okay with my lineage dying out at some point in the future ... but I'm not okay with it dying out so quickly I will never see the same town twice in a row. Considering I rarely play more than once or twice each day, that means I want most lineages to last a few days, preferably longer. So if I play in a nice village today, I can check up on it tomorrow to see if it is doing well. It bothers me to know that most towns will be dead just a few short hours after I log off for the evening.

Infinity is too long. Five hours is too short. I'm looking for a compromise.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-15 21:09:21)

AmberA · 2020-01-15 21:12:41

The Wonders doomed themselves by their roleplaying. They had 2 fertile women, several girls and several boys in a well stocked bell town with lots of water (The western bell town). I was born there and everyone was in the blue mask clan. They said their clan was based on killing all other races. Since its a bell town, kind people from other races rode in bringing supplies. They were all immediately attacked and slaughtered by the blue masks, even any new born babies were stabbed. I'd try to tell them to run but I had to try to lay low so I could grow up enough to end it.

Once one of the women turned 40 I had a weapon and was ready to make my move. Both women stabbed a foreigner so I stabbed the last fertile woman then the old woman stabbed me. I pleaded with my last young sister to not continue their work. I pleased with her to go die and to end the line of killing. My next life I was born in different bell town, recruited some of my brothers, loaded with weapons and we rode back to end it once and for all. When we arrived, there was only 1 Wonder left and it was an old man. His backpack was full of knives, I think he was one of the peaceful ones. When he died of natural causes the Wonder family died out. I dismantled the knives and hid the blue masks.

In this case, I was happy the family ended. It's just sad to see all the work of generations of people before then tarnish the Wonder name because of that group.

Punkypal · 2020-01-15 21:56:40

Spooonwood

DestinyCall · 2020-01-15 22:14:27

Oh god, please stop beating him! That horse is clearly dead!

...

But wait, I know a skilled necromancer. Perhaps it is not too late after all.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 22:25:40

45: The McCrakens: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5803218

46: A Nameless Lineage: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5803234

DestinyCall · 2020-01-15 22:39:26

If you beat an undead horse, does it run faster?

Spoonwood · 2020-01-15 23:47:31

47: The Jankowskis: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5803463

48: The Daniells: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=5803517

Villas · 2020-01-16 00:02:09

Spoonwood wrote:

Villas wrote:
In this case, yes. It blew up my mind when studies it at university, when we start studying Differential and Integral Calculus we mess a lot with the “number” infinite and zeros, so we have to make crazy maths to approach a value when X tends to a number, interesting things happen when X tends to 0 or infinite. For example, 1/x when x tends to 0 is equals to infinite.
That's not the only way of founding calculus. Infinitesmials can get used as Robinson's work and non-standard analysis showed. But, I digress.
Villas wrote:
Eternity is the same as infinite (I know there are some semantic differences, but I’m this case we are talking about a lineage that starts at 0 and goes until infinite). Infinite divided by any number (but 0) is still infinite. 2 seconds is 43,200 times lower than infinite, but infinite/43200 = infinite. So in this case, yes, 2 seconds = 86,400 seconds.
Since we'll have to come back to talking about game time which is discrete, I don't know why you've used differential and integral calculus. Game time is discrete after all. A countably infinite number divided by any number is still countably infinite, sure. To understand things better, we can consider a countably infinite set where a subset of it gets removed. I hope you recall that, where X and Y are sets, (X / Y) = (X ^ c(Y)), where '^' stands for intersection, and 'c' stands for set-theoretic complement. But, what if X is the universal set?
Consider the countably infinite set
A := {1, 2, 3, ..., n, (n+1), ...} (maybe we should use the rational numbers instead, but since this involves cardinality, we may as well use the natural numbers since they're simpler)
where {1} gets removed is {2, 3, 4, ... n, (n+1), ...} is still countably infinite.
Sure, letting B = {1, 2} and C = {1, 2, ..., n, (n +1), ..., 86,400}, |(A-B)| = |(A-C)|, where the bars get used for cardinality.
But, does {1, 2} have the same size as {1, 2, ..., n, (n +1), ..., 86,400}? Nope. So, 2 seconds doesn't equal 86,400 seconds.
How did you go wrong? I think you forgot a second is a measurement of time. Since it's a measurement, we needed to invoke the cardinality of a set directly. Once we do that, we simply can't have 2 seconds equaling 86,400 seconds. We would only have two similar countably infinite sets.

Nah, if you change the real values, they can be equal.
1 is different from 2, but if you say “let’s suppose 1 = 8/4”, then 1 = 2 on this scenarios.
Of course 2 seconds is different from 86,400 seconds, but if you suppose 1 day = infinite, then 2 seconds is also infinite, since 2 secs = 1 day/43,200, and 1 day is infinite, so 2 secs = infinite/43,200 = infinite, so 2 secs = infinite if 1 day were infinite, in the real world it’s not like that, but if you change the real values, they can be anything. Use some online calculator and divide infinite by any positive number (but 0 or infinite) and you’ll see it’s still infinite.
It works if you multiply as well, infinite * 7 = infinite, so if 1 day = infinite, then 1 week = infinite*7 = infinite.

Spoonwood · 2020-01-16 02:02:12

Villas wrote:

but if you say “let’s suppose 1 = 8/4”, then 1 = 2 on this scenarios.

If you say that 1 = 2, which first said by supposition, we don't know if 2 = 86,400 or not. False propositions lead to false propositions, and true propositions also. Thus, what you claim is meaningless.

Villas wrote:

Of course 2 seconds is different from 86,400 seconds, but if you suppose 1 day = infinite

I collapsed the age of the hypothetical future universe to a day, and then used ratios. The age of that universe is not infinite. So, no, I didn't suppose that 1 day = infinite. No natural numbers are infinite.

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