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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#76 2019-12-16 11:38:08

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 827

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

One final question:

Give me one good reason why a griefer wouldn't just /die out of that situation immediately, and move on to the next family?

Because every place would be like that, food would be a precious ressource that you have to earn, so even if a griefer would /die his next home wouldn't just give him free food for nothing and without cooperating he would surely die.

The baker needs wheat but he's not a farmer that's he trades for the wheat with the farmer.

Of course all of these is assuming the game is very different than right now but that's the point how do we go from a game where a griefer would just start a life and grief to a game where even a griefer would forget about griefing because he gets immersed in what the game requires him to do.

So you want food to be scarce all of the time? That doesn't sound like a very fun game to me. Hard work has to pay off sometimes and not just lead in to more constant work. That doesn't sound very rewarding either.

Also I doubt griefers would actually stick around under those conditions and not just straight up leave. Again you are making a lot of assumptions about a griefer's wishes here.


Race car go brrr

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#77 2019-12-16 11:40:59

Toxolotl
Member
Registered: 2019-10-09
Posts: 156

Re: You are a griefer

If we are talking about base griefers that grief small towns and eve villages and such. It depends a bit.

Two main reasons i see are either that the player is frustrated with the game so they exploit or grief in some way to vent. The other is a player that enjoys causing suffering.

I run into a lot of noob griefers who dont seem to understand the game but think griefing is fun. They do very basic stuff like run around with a bow and eventually shoot an old lady for no reason. I would put them into the frustrated category. Griefing is probably the easiest job in the game. Without the appreciation for what it takes to build a civ i imagine they don't take it as seriously when they burn it down. If a player is frustrated with the learning curve and doesn't have the patience to learn i could see them turning to griefing. Noobs can often be the best town killers and not even realize it.

On the suffering end though. Which i think is a more common trait in the more prolific griefers. For anyone who builds a grand sandcastle there will always be someone who wants to knock it down. Its for a similar reason the person builds it. Its a spectacle. They spend X amount of time making this thing and they spend X amount of time destroying it. Its almost like they are two halves. One creates the civilization and the other destroys it. They are second in their impact to the town only to the person who founded it. I imagine the bigger the town the more satisfying it is for them to destroy it. These are the type of griefers that truly destroy towns. Not for any reason but their own gratification over the suffering of others and the destruction of hard work.

Back in the rift i think it had more to do with people wanting to be eve and getting tired of the same arc. For the most part nowadays i think it has more to do with the above factors.

I feel like most veteran players could kill a town easily, even without anyone realizing its them causing all the problems. Why don't they? I presume because they understand the effort and hours it takes to build towns, how many people poured their lives into those towns, and they respect that. Anyone who's been one of those people understand how painful it is to have your hard work thrown in the trash.

Last edited by Toxolotl (2019-12-16 11:59:16)

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#78 2019-12-16 11:47:38

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

IIRC first time murder was introduced you would just get instant death black screen and murderer would have no cooldown, so definitly a long way from we have now.

Haha I remember that. It was like "oh, it's over now" I'm not sure it even said you were shot with a bow, can't remember

sigmen4020 wrote:

Also I doubt griefers would actually stick around under those conditions and not just straight up leave. Again you are making a lot of assumptions about a griefer's wishes here.

That sounds like a win though, ideally the griefer would join in but if you make it simply unpalatable for the griefer to grief and so they go elsewhere or suicide or whatever then at least they didn't tear the place up.

It seems kind of okay to let griefers bounce around until they find a small camp to target which doesn't have property protections because it just would mean that small camps are dangerous, and they should be. It would give a reason to live in a city, compared to now where it comes up now and then how it's weird that running from berry bush to carrot to berry bush is pretty much the safest way to guarantee life.

Getting exiled from a city like that would be a big deal too, assuming it came with actual lack of access to food (looking ahead to future features, of course)

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-16 12:08:29)

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#79 2019-12-16 12:19:01

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 600

Re: You are a griefer

Anyone wanna buy my dead baby bones?


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#80 2019-12-16 12:21:10

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: You are a griefer

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Anyone wanna buy my dead baby bones?

He has your mother's eye sockets

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#81 2019-12-16 12:22:06

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

It wasn't a fair answer because you are supposed to put yourself in th shoes of a griefer, to immerse yourself in the mindset of a griefer.

All the responses i got was from the point of view of the person responding as themselves but no as if they were the griefer.

Fine I'll play you'll silly game.  For the record I'm treating your comment as a stand-alone comment.

Dodge wrote:

Picture this scenario:

You are a griefer

Alright.

Dodge wrote:

You just started a new life, your mother carries you for your first 4 years

What?  It's a multiplayer survival game of parenting and civilization building.  So, I'm going to try to grief as many aspects of the game as I can.  Since I'm imagining my character as a griefer, why would I let my mother carry me for my first 4 years?

Dodge wrote:

And what would have happenned if you tried to be idiot and start griefing right away by running away with the hoe for example?

No, if I tried to start griefing right away, I wouldn't run away with the hoe.   

I'm perilously close to giving away too many details.  The claim about this thread breeding a toxic environment is correct.  I'm really not sure that there exists anything attractive enough in the game to keep me from griefing if I got it into my head to do so.  I wish I could explain why, but again, I'm perilously close to giving away too many details.  I'm also perilously close to logging into bs2 and seeing if there's anything in this game that could persuade me away from not griefing.

Oh look, I've got another curse token here.

CURSE EVE DODGE

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#82 2019-12-16 12:34:20

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

sigmen4020 wrote:

In reality if a griefer would be put in such a hopeless scenario, when even their childhood survival would be pretty much impossible, they would just skip the place altogether.

I'm going to have to disagree on the griefer skipping such a scenario.  Especially if the griefer wants us to grow carrots.   Damn... I used my curse token.  So goes life.

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#83 2019-12-16 13:07:02

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 827

Re: You are a griefer

Spoonwood wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

In reality if a griefer would be put in such a hopeless scenario, when even their childhood survival would be pretty much impossible, they would just skip the place altogether.

I'm going to have to disagree on the griefer skipping such a scenario.  Especially if the griefer wants us to grow carrots.   Damn... I used my curse token.  So goes life.

lol


Race car go brrr

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#84 2019-12-16 13:12:18

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 827

Re: You are a griefer

jcwilk wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

Also I doubt griefers would actually stick around under those conditions and not just straight up leave. Again you are making a lot of assumptions about a griefer's wishes here.

That sounds like a win though, ideally the griefer would join in but if you make it simply unpalatable for the griefer to grief and so they go elsewhere or suicide or whatever then at least they didn't tear the place up.

It seems kind of okay to let griefers bounce around until they find a small camp to target which doesn't have property protections because it just would mean that small camps are dangerous, and they should be. It would give a reason to live in a city, compared to now where it comes up now and then how it's weird that running from berry bush to carrot to berry bush is pretty much the safest way to guarantee life.

Getting exiled from a city like that would be a big deal too, assuming it came with actual lack of access to food (looking ahead to future features, of course)

I would agree with you if it was only griefers that would jump ship. Said scenario would scare away new players even more than the game currently does. And who would to work in the everlasting cycle of hopelessness? Aren't we working hard to make life for the next generations easier? What would be point of tackling an infinite battle of attrition, if you know that your work would be for naught since everyone would experience the same extreme difficulty no matter which generation they were born into? I certainly wouldn't.

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-16 13:13:02)


Race car go brrr

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#85 2019-12-16 14:34:03

wondible
Member
Registered: 2018-04-19
Posts: 826

Re: You are a griefer

Toxolotl wrote:

For anyone who builds a grand sandcastle there will always be someone who wants to knock it down. Its for a similar reason the person builds it. Its a spectacle. They spend X amount of time making this thing and they spend X amount of time destroying it. Its almost like they are two halves. One creates the civilization and the other destroys it. They are second in their impact to the town only to the person who founded it.

Perhaps the solution for some people (by no means all) is to make it much easier to have an impact by building than destroying. For instance: the other day I made some of the first newcomen attachment parts. Perhaps the second or third time I've done that on a public server. The game is full of fleeting moments like this where something important needs to be done, but only once, and a lot of the tech tree is linear by design. There often aren't significant ways to contribute - just farm more crops, make more compost, gather more kindling, bake more pies - or tear something down and *everybody* notice your "contribution"


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#86 2019-12-16 14:53:47

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: You are a griefer

By positive motivation you mean not isolating griefers but making them join to serve the community.

If you lock all the food you need supervisors to exchange food for all the needed supplies. But then griefers would go to munch wild berries. So you need also a barricade from the outside world and a pass to let them go.

So they would be supplied with carts for gathering outside resources (to pass the gate), but instead they would dump carts in the wilderness and then die (also creating before some mess / waste in town).

So basically to include griefer to work you need many people, just to make sure he/she is working, like in prison. Is this sound like it would ever work?

Positive motivation don't exist because it won't work. If you can think of any give an example. Only isolation works and should be more restricted than it is now.

Last edited by Gogo (2019-12-16 16:09:25)

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#87 2019-12-16 16:26:50

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

Yeah i probably exagerated with the whole locked food in room but it was to give an idea on how it could be.

But the basic concept is you have to work and be invested within your community in order to survive and by doing so you eventually forget that you where about to grief that said community or/and become attached to that community and lose the will to grief it in the first place.

In terms of how it would be done that's another question, food obviously plays a major part since it's basically your survival currency and having an overabundance of it everywhere basically means that you dont need anyone which makes the individual need to be invested in the community pretty much obsolete (when i mean invested in the community i dont mean everybody doing their own thing in a village setting like currently but really need to communicate and plan with each other in order to survive).

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#88 2019-12-16 16:38:38

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:
sigmen4020 wrote:

One final question:

Give me one good reason why a griefer wouldn't just /die out of that situation immediately, and move on to the next family?

Because every place would be like that, food would be a precious ressource that you have to earn, so even if a griefer would /die his next home wouldn't just give him free food for nothing and without cooperating he would surely die.

The baker needs wheat but he's not a farmer that's he trades for the wheat with the farmer.

Of course all of these is assuming the game is very different than right now but that's the point how do we go from a game where a griefer would just start a life and grief to a game where even a griefer would forget about griefing because he gets immersed in what the game requires him to do.

If the game changed that much, griefers would adapt.  They wouldn't reform and become loyal villagers.  They would learn new tricks and different ways to kill.    In a village on the brink of starvation, you only need to give a tiny little push to tip it over the edge.   Some griefers would grief by spamming the village with dead babies.   Others would stay alive, waiting for an opening.  Some would stick to the same old tactics, killing unwary villagers or luring people away from safety or killing their own children.And some would take their time and really enjoy themselves.

Become the baker, but instead of baking meat pies, they would use up all the wheat without replanting, cook raw mutton and strip the berry fields to make expensive berry rabbit carrot pies that are left unbaked for as long as possible or force-fed to babies.   They shear all the sheep, waste all the carrots, plant non vital crops in all the prepared soil, and break all the hoes making useless shallow rows.   Then they hide the baskets of pies, kill the last sheep, and wait for the village to realize they are in the middle of a food crisis.   There is no wheat, no carrots, the berries are empty, the mutton is gone.

New players will panic and die first.   More experienced players will abandon the town for the wilderness.  A few will stay behind to try to repair the damage, before the town dies completely Oh wait, that is not an option any longer.   When the town dies, everybody dies.

If this plan fails or the griefer gets caught ... he dies and tries again.   There are a thousand ways to grief and the harder it is to survive, the easier the system becomes to sabotage.  The more focused everyone is on survival, the less time we have to monitor the behavior of other players.  Just like living in a very polite society provides you with a million ways to be rude, trying to survive in a game that wants you dead provides the griefer with a million ways to kill without lifting a blade.

Do you really think a griefer would reform his evil ways if he was expected to work for his daily bread?  Hardly.   He would just adapt his attacks to keep alive long enough to achieve his true objectives.   It would still be the same game-within-a-game.  It would still be more fun to make his own rules, so he can win every time.   He wouldn't forget to grief.   It just might take a little longer to buy the knife.

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#89 2019-12-16 17:08:42

Gogo
Banned
Registered: 2019-10-11
Posts: 589

Re: You are a griefer

They can be send to ruin other places (so more resources for us), but they wouldn't expose themselves as griefers and they like to betray their own people.

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#90 2019-12-16 18:10:20

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

But the basic concept is you have to work and be invested within your community in order to survive and by doing so you eventually forget that you where about to grief that said community or/and become attached to that community and lose the will to grief it in the first place.

Dodge ...  you aren't thinking like a griefer.    You are thinking about what would make YOU care about the village and become more invested in its future success.   What would make the game feel better and more engaging for you in particular.   There's nothing wrong with that.  But as you have pointed out to other people, your challenge was to think like a griefer.   Not like yourself, but on a bad day. 

True griefers are sociopaths.    Other people aren't real to them.   They don't form bonds with their community.   They don't care about any of that touchy-feely crap that gives you a warm feeling inside.   They don't get those nice feelings that other people talk about.     

...

So let's talk about sociopaths, shall we?

Clinically-speaking, "sociopath" is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder.  People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause.    People with ASPD may also use “mind games” to control friends, family members, co-workers, and even strangers.    Some sociopaths may be perceived as charismatic or charming by the people around them, because they have become adept at handling social interactions and reading emotional cues.   The terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" are sometimes used interchangeably, but from a clinical perspective, either label could be used to describe a person with ASPD.

ASPD is part of a category of personality disorders characterized by persistent negative behaviors.

The new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders says that someone with ASPD consistently shows a lack of regard for others’ feelings or violations of people’s rights. People with ASPD may not realize that they have these behaviors. They may live their entire lives without a diagnosis.

To receive a diagnosis of ASPD, someone must be older than 18. Their behaviors must show a pattern of at least three of the following seven traits:

* Doesn’t respect social norms or laws. They consistently break laws or overstep social boundaries.
* Lies, deceives others, uses false identities or nicknames, and uses others for personal gain.
* Doesn’t make any long-term plans. They also often behave without thinking of consequences.
* Shows aggressive or aggravated behavior. They consistently get into fights or physically harm others.
* Doesn’t consider their own safety or the safety of others.
* Doesn't follow up on personal or professional responsibilities. This can include repeatedly being late to work or not paying bills on time.
* Doesn’t feel guilt or remorse for having harmed or mistreated others.


ASPD can be diagnosed in someone as young as 15 years old if they show symptoms of a conduct disorder. These symptoms include:

* breaking rules without regard for the consequences
* needlessly destroying things that belong to themselves or others
* repeatedly stealing
* lying or constantly deceiving others
* being aggressive toward others or animals

.....

Read over those symptoms a few times and tell me if it sounds like a griefer to you.   Now think about how you would convince a SOCIOPATH to care about his village.   

Because that's pretty much what you are dealing with.    People who have anti-social tenancies in real life, given the ability to act on their inner feelings through the medium of an anonymous multiplayer game.    Chances are pretty high that they show some of those same symptoms in the real world, whether or not they have been professionally diagnosed.   Sociopathy is not rare condition, unfortunately, and it is likely to go undiagnosed in people who are better at avoiding notice and controlling their impulses.   That's what we are dealing with when we have a serial griefer in the game.   Someone who enjoys hurting other people and keeps doing it, life after life, even when they know the behavior is harmful to others.

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#91 2019-12-16 19:31:30

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:
Dodge wrote:

But the basic concept is you have to work and be invested within your community in order to survive and by doing so you eventually forget that you where about to grief that said community or/and become attached to that community and lose the will to grief it in the first place.

Dodge ...  you aren't thinking like a griefer.    You are thinking about what would make YOU care about the village and become more invested in its future success.   What would make the game feel better and more engaging for you in particular.   There's nothing wrong with that.  But as you have pointed out to other people, your challenge was to think like a griefer.   Not like yourself, but on a bad day.

Yeah maybe you are right, maybe i failed my own challenge lol

But do you really think that most griefers are truly clinical sociopath/psychopath or just bored people that cant get immersed in the game for a reason or another, the game doesn't provide them the entertainment they need so they create their own.

Honestly i have no idea, it could almost be an in game poll

Why do you grief?:

1.Boredom
2.I'm a sociopath/psychopath
3.I dont grief

But obviously wouldn't be a realistic poll or probably wouldn't really be accurate.

About 1% of the population are psychopaths and 4% are sociopaths, so the poll should be in the 5% regarding point number 2.

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#92 2019-12-16 19:31:49

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:

If this plan fails or the griefer gets caught ... he dies and tries again.   There are a thousand ways to grief and the harder it is to survive, the easier the system becomes to sabotage.  The more focused everyone is on survival, the less time we have to monitor the behavior of other players.  Just like living in a very polite society provides you with a million ways to be rude, trying to survive in a game that wants you dead provides the griefer with a million ways to kill without lifting a blade.

This I find insightful as to why the game had consistently declined over time since recovery after the game first went on Steam.  With updates like The End is Nigh Eves (as the dark nosaj once called it when babbling to me), Diverse Biome Temperature Be Damned... You Will Live in The Cold, Ponds Be Damned... Gonna Need a Pump Yesterday, The Come Together Disaster, Battle Royale in the HellCell,  More Battle Royale in the HellCell,  Even More Battle Royale in the HellCell, Don't You Like Battle Royale in the HellCell, Yet?, You Only Get as Many Tools as the Number of Your Fingers on One Hand Unless You Cheat or are Super Clever, Races PLEASE Stay in Your Designated Zones, and a whole "Evolve or Die" philosophy outweighing improvements in the game that make it easier, is it really any wonder why the game has struggled with player retention so much?  Is it really any wonder super long lineages haven't emerged?  Challenge is one thing, but when there's a tendency to make things more and more difficult from its very philosophy combined with a desire to keep things fresh (of course, often enough the later may be rational), and probably more that I haven't figured out yet, the wrong people getting more empowered seems like no surprise in the end.

And it looks like the future could be even worse with people like Kinrany and Dodge, brainstorming about ways to crank the difficulty up to something like a group game of Oassise, and Jason having expressed a desire to make the game even more difficult in the future.

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#93 2019-12-16 19:41:58

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:

If this plan fails or the griefer gets caught ... he dies and tries again.   There are a thousand ways to grief and the harder it is to survive, the easier the system becomes to sabotage.  The more focused everyone is on survival, the less time we have to monitor the behavior of other players.  Just like living in a very polite society provides you with a million ways to be rude, trying to survive in a game that wants you dead provides the griefer with a million ways to kill without lifting a blade.

Well the "twist" i was thinking about is when you are in a shelter/home your food pips go down very very slow, so the challenge for survival is very low and you have time for social interaction, planning, "behaviour monitoring" etc.

BUT the pips still go down so staying in the shelter all the time is not an option

AND when you go out then you are in survival "hard" mode, food pips progressivly burn faster the more you spend time outside and get colder but it's a necessity since you need to get ressources, farm etc.

So basically in shelter = time for planning, socializing, organizing etc, then outside = survival, gathering ressources, working etc.

This way as long as you are in a shelter/house you are not really stressed about the survival aspect (at least not in the immediate but in the long term) and you have time for player interaction based gameplay.

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#94 2019-12-16 20:11:37

DarkDrak
Member
Registered: 2019-06-05
Posts: 122

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:
JasonY wrote:
Dodge wrote:

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol

anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.

I don't know what exactly you wanted to hear. The question was "why wouldn't you kill" and we provided a fair answer.


Accept it or fuck off.

It wasn't a fair answer because you are supposed to put yourself in th shoes of a griefer, to immerse yourself in the mindset of a griefer.

All the responses i got was from the point of view of the person responding as themselves but no as if they were the griefer.

Answers like "i wouldn't do it because i would feel bad about players that worked so hard" are still your own perspective and not as if you where a griefer.

The title of the post is "You are a griefer", so try to picture yourself as a griefer starting a new life, what could motivate you to not grief this life?

Keep in mind that negative motivation are not the best since they are always going to be fought against, you can implement as many negative motivations like donkey town and such, if a griefer wants to grief he will find a way.

Basically how to make the game in a way that even a griefer would eventually get immersed in the game and eventually forget that he was about to grief.

If you start a new life with the intention to grief and there's plenty of food around, no strugle for survival, no need for communication or interaction with others then what are you going to do? grief of course.

But if sudenly you actually need to cooperate, plan for survival, communicate, organize etc then you might even forget that you where about to grief because you get immersed in the situation going on.

Picture this scenario:

You are a griefer

You just started a new life, your mother carries you for your first 4 years

She then drops you in the family house and as you walk around you realize that there is absolutely no food available for you and going outside to try to find food would result in you most likely dying

The only food available is locked in a safe room ("fridge").

What do you do?

Reasonnably you would start to ask for food right?

And would they tell you?

That you have to work for it "here we trust you with that hoe, go tile some rows, plant seeds, water them and come back here"

So what do you do?

Well you dont have any choice, you start farming, come back and since you earned their trust they give you a bowl of berries, enough to survive for some time.

And what would have happenned if you tried to be idiot and start griefing right away by running away with the hoe for example?

Well you would have died and they would have only lost a hoe (stone hoe btw since they werent gonna trust someone right away with a steel one)

You finished your bowl of berries and now they want you to trade the wheat you just grew for pies with the baker living next door.

Etc.

Etc.

Etc.

Eventually you're old, the final song starts playing, your screen turns black, you lived to 60, died of old age, it was a great life, you forgot that you where about to grief when you started that life.

Dodge wrote:

Because every place would be like that, food would be a precious ressource that you have to earn, so even if a griefer would /die his next home wouldn't just give him free food for nothing and without cooperating he would surely die.

The baker needs wheat but he's not a farmer that's he trades for the wheat with the farmer.

Demn bro, you pictured pictured a Green Hat utopia there. Never thought that you'd sympatize with consumistic ideals.
Sadly it doesnt work. People will never work for food. Instead they'll make weapons and stab whoever holds permissions to the fridge. And/or they will curse them into oblivion. And you, the poor Green Hat will see the structure, that you made precisely to protect people from greifing, being greifed down by the very people you were trying to protect. AND you will be treated as the bad guy in all of this. The whole system just collapses on itself.
Despite that, if you're a greifer born in such a place, what you do is either to climb ranks, so you can watch people work for you and you can starve them at will, or you build a waystone in front of the fridge and enjoy your boner as the whole place starves to death.


That said, you actually got some solid responses to your question..? Why didn't you like them? If you start a game and set your objective as "having some fun at the expense of others", there isnt anything preventing you from doing it, just as there isnt anything preventing you from "having some fun with others". But there are several things that can stop you mid-way. And ways that can prevent you from doing it in the future.

It almost feels like you're expecting there to be a way to prevent that sort of play in the first place. I mean, there could be such a way, but how do you expect it to descriminate between Sociopaths and new players? Between bored people who spread greif once and cooperate 99% of the time and those who spread greif 99% of the time and cooperate once? Between poeple people destroying stuff as a means for a greater good and those who do it just for fun? If you want to stop the greifing probem at its roots, just make everyone be born with broken legs. You can't greif others if everyone's already greifed beyound repair.


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#95 2019-12-16 20:17:45

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:
Dodge wrote:

But the basic concept is you have to work and be invested within your community in order to survive and by doing so you eventually forget that you where about to grief that said community or/and become attached to that community and lose the will to grief it in the first place.

Dodge ...  you aren't thinking like a griefer.    You are thinking about what would make YOU care about the village and become more invested in its future success.   What would make the game feel better and more engaging for you in particular.   There's nothing wrong with that.  But as you have pointed out to other people, your challenge was to think like a griefer.   Not like yourself, but on a bad day. 

True griefers are sociopaths.    Other people aren't real to them.   They don't form bonds with their community.   They don't care about any of that touchy-feely crap that gives you a warm feeling inside.   They don't get those nice feelings that other people talk about.     

...

So let's talk about sociopaths, shall we?

Clinically-speaking, "sociopath" is a term used to describe someone who has antisocial personality disorder.  People with ASPD can’t understand others’ feelings. They’ll often break rules or make impulsive decisions without feeling guilty for the harm they cause.    People with ASPD may also use “mind games” to control friends, family members, co-workers, and even strangers.    Some sociopaths may be perceived as charismatic or charming by the people around them, because they have become adept at handling social interactions and reading emotional cues.   The terms "sociopath" and "psychopath" are sometimes used interchangeably, but from a clinical perspective, either label could be used to describe a person with ASPD.

ASPD is part of a category of personality disorders characterized by persistent negative behaviors.

The new edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders says that someone with ASPD consistently shows a lack of regard for others’ feelings or violations of people’s rights. People with ASPD may not realize that they have these behaviors. They may live their entire lives without a diagnosis.

To receive a diagnosis of ASPD, someone must be older than 18. Their behaviors must show a pattern of at least three of the following seven traits:

* Doesn’t respect social norms or laws. They consistently break laws or overstep social boundaries.
* Lies, deceives others, uses false identities or nicknames, and uses others for personal gain.
* Doesn’t make any long-term plans. They also often behave without thinking of consequences.
* Shows aggressive or aggravated behavior. They consistently get into fights or physically harm others.
* Doesn’t consider their own safety or the safety of others.
* Doesn't follow up on personal or professional responsibilities. This can include repeatedly being late to work or not paying bills on time.
* Doesn’t feel guilt or remorse for having harmed or mistreated others.


ASPD can be diagnosed in someone as young as 15 years old if they show symptoms of a conduct disorder. These symptoms include:

* breaking rules without regard for the consequences
* needlessly destroying things that belong to themselves or others
* repeatedly stealing
* lying or constantly deceiving others
* being aggressive toward others or animals

.....

Read over those symptoms a few times and tell me if it sounds like a griefer to you.   Now think about how you would convince a SOCIOPATH to care about his village.   

Because that's pretty much what you are dealing with.    People who have anti-social tenancies in real life, given the ability to act on their inner feelings through the medium of an anonymous multiplayer game.    Chances are pretty high that they show some of those same symptoms in the real world, whether or not they have been professionally diagnosed.   Sociopathy is not rare condition, unfortunately, and it is likely to go undiagnosed in people who are better at avoiding notice and controlling their impulses.   That's what we are dealing with when we have a serial griefer in the game.   Someone who enjoys hurting other people and keeps doing it, life after life, even when they know the behavior is harmful to others.

Let's say that's all true and not just armchair psychology about faceless players we know nothing about besides a sample size of one life we watch. Not saying I think it's true, but just for the point of discussion let's go with it for a moment.

How do we get rid of them then? Non-griefers already get sent to donkeytown sometimes, intensifying that mechanic will almost certainly exacerbate that. Ban them outright from the game then? Even if Jason was cool with that, which there's been no indication that he is, it just means they have to blow another 20 bucks out whatever the current price of the game is to get a fresh start and do it again but sneakier so they don't pass that threshold. So unless you have a suggestion it sounds like the players in question are going to continue to be present in the game.

So what to do then? I mean it's a survival game right? Why not figure out some way to leverage their desire to subvert survival and make it add to the challenge? Why not figure out tools to add to the village arsenal to protect themselves against dangerous strangers and sociopathic youth?

Or think outside the box, what if getting cursed made you spawn as a bear or wolf or something next life and you had the same frequency of movement restrictions that bears do but you get to choose where and when to move to as long as it's within that threshold? Or maybe killing a certain number of people within a certain timeframe made you spawn as a witch/warlock rather than an eve which is necessary as the first step of building the apocalypse.

Maybe not being able to automatically trust each other is a good thing and we just need more defense mechanisms that are less useless/tedious than property fences

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#96 2019-12-16 20:29:30

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
Dodge wrote:

But the basic concept is you have to work and be invested within your community in order to survive and by doing so you eventually forget that you where about to grief that said community or/and become attached to that community and lose the will to grief it in the first place.

Dodge ...  you aren't thinking like a griefer.    You are thinking about what would make YOU care about the village and become more invested in its future success.   What would make the game feel better and more engaging for you in particular.   There's nothing wrong with that.  But as you have pointed out to other people, your challenge was to think like a griefer.   Not like yourself, but on a bad day.

Yeah maybe you are right, maybe i failed my own challenge lol

But do you really think that most griefers are truly clinical sociopath/psychopath or just bored people that cant get immersed in the game for a reason or another, the game doesn't provide them the entertainment they need so they create their own.

Do I think most griefers are sociopath?  Nope.   
Do I think some of them are?  Absolutely.   

Most people who grief are just regular players having a bad day.  They vent their frustration on other people.   Maybe they feel bad about it later.   They go back to playing cooperatively or they get bored and go play another game. 

But some griefers are different.   They don't get bored with griefing and they done feel guilty about the hurt they cause.  They keep griefing.  I think serial griefers demonstrate anti-social behavior in the game and there is a good chance that some of them show antisocial behaviors in their daily lives.   They are sociopaths or have sociopathic tendencies.    The conversations I have had with self-identified griefers reinforce this belief.   


Dodge wrote:

Honestly i have no idea, it could almost be an in game poll

Why do you grief?:

1.Boredom
2.I'm a sociopath/psychopath
3.I dont grief

But obviously wouldn't be a realistic poll or probably wouldn't really be accurate.

About 1% of the population are psychopaths and 4% are sociopaths, so the poll should be in the 5% regarding point number 2.

A poll wouldn't do you much good, since sociopaths are good at lying, not only to other people, but also to themselves.   They justify their behavior and rarely accept blame for their actions.  In their mind, they did nothing wrong.   I doubt that the average serial griefer considers himself to be a sociopath, so he wouldn't self-identify as one in a poll.   And if he did know he was a sociopath, he would likely be able to recognize that it is a bad idea to tell other people.   Sociopaths are heartless, but they aren't stupid.   

They can also be very narcissistic.    Just because they don't care if they hurt your feelings, that doesn't mean they want you to hurt theirs.   A narcissistic sociopath cares what people think of him and enjoys being admired, but has no empathy for others.   The admiration of others is desired and enjoyed, but their pain is ignored.   When you see a griefer posting a brag thread describing how he wiped out an entire village single-handedly, you are probably dealing with a narcissistic sociopath seeking attention and praise.   Or a normal teenager.   It can be hard to tell them apart at times.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-16 22:19:03)

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#97 2019-12-16 20:31:17

schmloo
Member
Registered: 2019-06-15
Posts: 198

Re: You are a griefer

How in the hell did this even blow up so big?


Insert OHOL-related signature here

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#98 2019-12-16 20:39:41

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: You are a griefer

schmloo wrote:

How in the hell did this even blow up so big?

Because destiny, spoon, and dodge are all closet sociopathic serial griefers and they're trying to build up the tension around grief so they can spread out on top of it like a water bed.

CURSE EVE SPOONDESTINYDODGE

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-16 20:40:06)

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#99 2019-12-16 21:02:36

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

jcwilk wrote:
schmloo wrote:

How in the hell did this even blow up so big?

Because destiny, spoon, and dodge are all closet sociopathic serial griefers and they're trying to build up the tension around grief so they can spread out on top of it like a water bed.

CURSE EVE SPOONDESTINYDODGE


The rabbithole goes even deeper.

We are all the same person.   We are legion.

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#100 2019-12-16 23:45:54

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 600

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

Anyway on a more serious note instead of simply contradicting me i hope you can see the point i'm trying to make in the original post.

Okay. "You are a griefer"

No u


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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