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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#51 2019-12-06 19:48:12

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

This game wants to be Nintendo hard.   It isn't about having a good time while playing, it is about dying a hundred times on the same jump puzzle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_hard

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-06 19:49:55)

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#52 2019-12-06 20:50:14

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DestinyCall wrote:

This game wants to be Nintendo hard.   It isn't about having a good time while playing, it is about dying a hundred times on the same jump puzzle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_hard

This game is not Nintendo hard. It only takes a handful of tries to live to 60, it's even conceivable that you might live to 60 on your very first try. Yes it's difficult to get to the end of the tech tree but that's only one facet of the game, in general it's rather softcore with very little emphasis on pvp. Go play haven n hearth or Salem if you want Nintendo hard mmo wilderness sandbox survival with brutally challenging crafting, trading, town building, etc. Sadly, Nintendo hard scares off modern gamers so the fact that there's a population at all is thanks to it not being properly Nintendo hard, despite how much I wish it was anyways

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#53 2019-12-06 21:08:31

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Punkypal wrote:

tl;dr

I had a very similar experience today. Born in a ginger bell town. They have no water, just a dry newcomen well with a torn seal. That pump never ran in my entire life. We somehow had a stockpile of sulfur but no junglers to gather latex or palm oil. I rang the bell twice and nobody ever showed up. SO I spent my life working on an unfinished road to a distant shallow well. Carted buckets back and forth and upgraded to a deep well when it ran dry. I kept up the tedious grind for half an hour because the town had a bell and that gave me hope that it could survive.

Some kid with the town's only horse cart is riding around with a bow and arrow accusing someone of griefing. He's wearing a crown and says he's the king. So he shoots someone. Then he shoots someone else. Then a third person. It's quickly becoming obvious that he's a liar and a murderer. I killed him and an idiot comes running with the king's bow to shoot me. We do the chase thing for a while, but I only have a knife and no tool slots left to learn the bow. I visited tarr's igloo to warn him about the idiot and he says he'll protect the town. It's tarr's current hometown I guess.

It's like the current game is 10% doing all the work, 10% trying to ruin the town and 80% oblivious berrymunchers. Things can still work with a population like this, but not when the workers are handicapped and handcuffed by tool slots and family specialties. Rather than doing everything, it becomes functionally impossible to even do enough to survive. We're soft locked in a perpetual state of dry wells and newcomen hell. It's boring and frustrating and hopeless.


Loco Motion

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#54 2019-12-06 21:52:06

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Game should be Nintendo Hard for an Eve camp starting up a new town.  Failure rate there should be way more than 50%.  Wild food should run out just before the first farm produces crops.  A few people should die of starvation along the way, even as expert players.  This part of the game is close to the correct hardness... maybe slightly too easy, but close.


Of course, the fruits of civilization should make basic survival easier.  Otherwise, it wouldn't make any logical sense.  We have a farm and a well and clothes and buildings now, but food is still running out and half of us are starving?

Living to 60 as the daughter of an Eve should be pretty darn hard.

But living to 60 in an advanced civilization should be almost a given.


At that point, the game should be Nintendo Hard for the collective, not in a single life, but across dozens of generations.  The failure rate of the collective entity should be high.

From this vantage point, we can imagine that a town surviving for 24 hours should be pretty darn hard, the equivalent of the daughter of an Eve surviving for 60 minutes.


Getty all distant-eyed, you can imagine a meta level of challenge above that....  If towns advance to the point where they can survive multiple days easily (because they have infrastructure in place for trade and cooperation with other families), then what's the next level of challenge?  Something for the entire world....

So then you challenge at these levels:

--Can an Eve camp survive 60 minutes?

--Can a town survive 24 hours?

--Can the world survive 7 days?


(That last one was the core idea behind the Arc system, and I've backed away from it for the time being, but I'm still thinking about it.... maybe not with a full world-wipe, but something that advanced villages need to do together in the long run to avoid collapsing).


Anyway, each of these levels should be Nintendo Hard.

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#55 2019-12-06 22:00:12

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jcwilk wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

This game wants to be Nintendo hard.   It isn't about having a good time while playing, it is about dying a hundred times on the same jump puzzle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_hard

This game is not Nintendo hard. It only takes a handful of tries to live to 60, it's even conceivable that you might live to 60 on your very first try.

I didn't say it IS Nintendo hard.   I said it WANTS to be Nintendo hard.   That seems to be the ultimate goal of all the recent restrictions and artificial barriers.   To make is very very hard (but not impossible) to keep a village alive for the longterm. 

Unfortunately, this has the expected result of making the game less and less accessible to new players and also less appealing to many modern gamers.    Not everyone has the right constitution to hit their head against a brick wall for hours.

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#56 2019-12-06 22:30:51

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 712

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

Game should be Nintendo Hard for an Eve camp starting up a new town.  Failure rate there should be way more than 50%.  Wild food should run out just before the first farm produces crops.  A few people should die of starvation along the way, even as expert players.  This part of the game is close to the correct hardness... maybe slightly too easy, but close.

Heh. Maybe being born in a low-tech village should also be a privilege, like being an Eve. The more experienced player, the closer to the start they spawn.

jasonrohrer wrote:

But living to 60 in an advanced civilization should be almost a given.

At that point, the game should be Nintendo Hard for the collective, not in a single life, but across dozens of generations.  The failure rate of the collective entity should be high.

I wish failing a civilization was a step back in progress, instead of a complete game over.

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#57 2019-12-06 22:35:38

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Punkypal wrote:

I've read that an Eve that makes to to 60yo can come back to same clan ONCE in next life but I've never seen it happen to me, after being an Eve that made it to 60yo at least 6 times now.

When the game first came out and for a few months after, Eves could get reborn in the same spot as an Eve again if they lived to 60.  Jason changed it though so that such Eve-chaining is only possible when a server has less than 4 fertile females on it.  According to the Wikipedia article, this change occurred in late December of 2018 in version 186 https://onehouronelife.gamepedia.com/Eve  Jason also mentions that change in the update notes here: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=4877

I assure you that Eve-chaining is still possible on servers consistently low pop, as I have done it several times in the past few weeks and I've seen others do it too.  You just won't see it on bigserver2 (which you default to unless population is high enough for load balancing and you don't check for a custom server... I can try to explain that if you desire me to), because of it's population numbers.... except maybe during an update period if someone is trying to do that.  Also, the tendency even when a server has only one fertile female on it, is for the person to get born as the child of the fertile mother, not to get born via their Eve spawn.

Punkypal wrote:

  I personally don't like getting bounced all over the world to all different families where each time I have to endure a new learning curve of what they need, and how it's set up, etc. I think most people don't like this either.

There have existed many people who have voiced such a complaint also.  I have been one of them.  I'm not sure Jason cares though, because if people get reborn into a spot with no one living there when they spawn, will there exist as many parenting opportunities as could have reasonably existed?  I think a good question though is how many people care about not getting being able to get reborn into the same spot vs. how many people would dislike having fewer parenting opportunities.  And that I don't have a good read on.

Punkypal wrote:

You have hardly any time to do anything, and it's frustrating as hell to not be able to keep doing it.

Yeah, I agree.

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#58 2019-12-06 22:37:47

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jcwilk wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

This game wants to be Nintendo hard.   It isn't about having a good time while playing, it is about dying a hundred times on the same jump puzzle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_hard

This game is not Nintendo hard. It only takes a handful of tries to live to 60, it's even conceivable that you might live to 60 on your very first try. Yes it's difficult to get to the end of the tech tree but that's only one facet of the game, in general it's rather softcore with very little emphasis on pvp. Go play haven n hearth or Salem if you want Nintendo hard mmo wilderness sandbox survival with brutally challenging crafting, trading, town building, etc. Sadly, Nintendo hard scares off modern gamers so the fact that there's a population at all is thanks to it not being properly Nintendo hard, despite how much I wish it was anyways

Jason has said that players are supposed to care for their offspring, and that such is a core assumption.  Getting to the end of the tech tree thus makes for a better measure than living to 60.

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#59 2019-12-06 22:53:46

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

Game should be Nintendo Hard for an Eve camp starting up a new town.  Failure rate there should be way more than 50%.  Wild food should run out just before the first farm produces crops.  A few people should die of starvation along the way, even as expert players.  This part of the game is close to the correct hardness... maybe slightly too easy, but close.


Of course, the fruits of civilization should make basic survival easier.  Otherwise, it wouldn't make any logical sense.  We have a farm and a well and clothes and buildings now, but food is still running out and half of us are starving?

Living to 60 as the daughter of an Eve should be pretty darn hard.

But living to 60 in an advanced civilization should be almost a given.

For people playing with Jason glasses (the default view), or people playing with a mod with a zoom feature?

Also, for how many players?

There's just no way to know really how many children an Eve will get, correct?

The problem of wild food closeby running out just isn't the same for small Eve camps.  Eves starting a new camp during a period of population decline on bs2 will probably have less to worry about in terms of closeby wild food running out than Eves during a population boom.

Because of that, I'm not so sure that your expectation of difficulty is realistic in that case.

jasonrohrer wrote:

At that point, the game should be Nintendo Hard for the collective, not in a single life, but across dozens of generations.  The failure rate of the collective entity should be high.

Jason in an earlier thread you said this to JonySky:

jasonrohrer wrote:

For it to be an actual challenge, you have to NOT get what you are looking for some of the time, right?  If you get what you are looking for every time, there is no challenge.

I agree that it is a delicate balance.  If you have 99 failures for every 1 success, the game is too hard, and it is frustrating.  But on the other hand, not enough failures makes the game boring and not dramatic.

I am not so sure that such a delicate balance has gotten achieved, even ignoring Tarr's example of where climbing the tech tree was impossible, with some of the reports above.

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#60 2019-12-06 22:54:46

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DestinyCall wrote:

Unfortunately, this has the expected result of making the game less and less accessible to new players and also less appealing to many modern gamers.    Not everyone has the right constitution to hit their head against a brick wall for hours.

I agree with that.

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#61 2019-12-06 23:09:46

Coconut Fruit
Member
Registered: 2019-08-16
Posts: 805

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

It's supposed to be hard.  Really hard.  Almost impossible to keep a town going forever.

That's cool, but you made it in a way that is not fun. Damn, I had 2 weeks break and I don't even miss this game anymore. Hopefully it is at least fun to you.


Making own private server (Very easy! You can play on it even if you haven't bought the game)
Zoom mod
Mini guide for beginners
website with all recipies

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#62 2019-12-06 23:22:42

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Coconut Fruit wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:

It's supposed to be hard.  Really hard.  Almost impossible to keep a town going forever.

That's cool, but you made it in a way that is not fun. Damn, I had 2 weeks break and I don't even miss this game anymore. Hopefully it is at least fun to you.

I get the impression Jason doesn't really have enough free time to just play OHOL for the fun of playing the game.   I could be wrong though.

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#63 2019-12-07 00:19:15

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DestinyCall wrote:
jcwilk wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

This game wants to be Nintendo hard.   It isn't about having a good time while playing, it is about dying a hundred times on the same jump puzzle.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_hard

This game is not Nintendo hard. It only takes a handful of tries to live to 60, it's even conceivable that you might live to 60 on your very first try.

I didn't say it IS Nintendo hard.   I said it WANTS to be Nintendo hard.   That seems to be the ultimate goal of all the recent restrictions and artificial barriers.   To make is very very hard (but not impossible) to keep a village alive for the longterm. 

Unfortunately, this has the expected result of making the game less and less accessible to new players and also less appealing to many modern gamers.    Not everyone has the right constitution to hit their head against a brick wall for hours.

Fair enough, though even the changes he's implemented are pretty small potatoes, I don't see them edging it towards that kind of difficulty level until actual survival becomes difficult. For now it's just the nice-to-have bigger picture goals that are difficult, and big picture goals in a sandbox mmo are absolutely essential to be almost impossible because of it was in any way trivial then people all over the map would be doing it and it would lose meaning. Endgame stuff should be endgame, not everyone is supposed to reach endgame, in mmos very few should. The early and even midgame though takes only a few hours of playing and studying to more or less master as-is.

Also his weird aversion to doing anything with combat other than throwing it completely under the bus is not indicative of a desire for extreme difficulty.

This is why it's so easy and tempting to grief, there's no pressure to stay alive. Being in an established town, from a desire for challenge perspective, is boring. The only interesting thing to do aside from spam things for future people is to grief. Running out of water is like a saving grace from boredom, at least now the family will be on the run and have a baby or two picked off by bears rather than it just be a tepid non-memory of gathering clay and firewood or whatever banal task you get stuck with, if you're lucky enough for the town to be organized enough to have need for tasks so you don't have to spend half your life nagging at zombies about what they need more of.

I wish that when a foreigner showed up it was terrifying, as-is it's more of a zoned out non-response as one waits to see if the foreigner is going to chase you around idly, steal stuff you aren't particularly emotionally attached to anyways, or join in on endlessly fetching and combining things to permit future descendants to have an even easier and more boring time.

Maybe I should start doing ethical griefing, where I declare I'm going to attempt to end the family then give them a 10 minute grace period to prepare (as long as they don't simply surround the whole town with a single fence since that's a broken, undefeatable, uninteresting mechanic as-is). I think I'll do some experimenting with this and if I find something that works I'll post a guide on how to go about it in a (subjectively) gameplay improving way.

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#64 2019-12-07 00:45:24

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Or maybe ... if the game is boring you that much ... take a break.   Please don't grief the game because you are bored.

Strange as it might seem, there are still people who enjoy the simple pleasure of growing well-organized rows of carrots.   Plenty of games provide deep combat mechanics.   Very few games have the potential to allow multi-generational cooperative building.

I'd really like to see this game's true strength developed instead of continuing to up the "hardness", making all forward progress feel extra grindy and tedious.

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#65 2019-12-07 01:11:01

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DestinyCall wrote:

Or maybe ... if the game is boring you that much ... take a break.   Please don't grief the game because you are bored.

Strange as it might seem, there are still people who enjoy the simple pleasure of growing well-organized rows of carrots.   Plenty of games provide deep combat mechanics.   Very few games have the potential to allow multi-generational cooperative building.

I'd really like to see this game's true strength developed instead of continuing to up the "hardness", making all forward progress feel extra grindy and tedious.

I have a difficult time thinking of how to enhance (without ruining) the core of the game which I'd define as being both that you're always born to a player and that there's no direct long term ownership of anything given the one hour life and lack of spawn stickiness, and then the mechanisms around those limitations/themes to make them work. What do you feel is missing from the true strength of the game, and do you define it differently?

I didn't mention crafting/tech cause I see that as subservient to making multigenerational play interesting, the crafting isn't interesting enough to me to constitute worthwhile gameplay in a hypothetical single player mode, for example, but that's very subjective.

And yeah I haven't been playing lately, been trying to force myself to volunteer some work on OneTech but I keep not quite having a long enough block of focus time to sink my teeth into getting the dev environment set up etc.

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#66 2019-12-07 01:13:20

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Nintendo games are not full of emptiness they are actually entertaining...

If all villages are 8 k apart and only gingers and blacks can make bell towers but only after x hours do you not see the issue?

Now that interfamily interaction is needed...

Hard and challenging is good, travelling a sea of emptiness in a random direction in hopes of finding something is not, it's basically RNG at this point...

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#67 2019-12-07 01:29:44

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Dodge wrote:

Nintendo games are not full of emptiness they are actually entertaining...

If all villages are 8 k apart and only gingers and blacks can make bell towers but only after x hours do you not see the issue?

Now that interfamily interaction is needed...

Hard and challenging is good, travelling a sea of emptiness in a random direction in hopes of finding something is not, it's basically RNG at this point...

So you feel the main thing missing is that people are too far apart? I agree that interaction is too difficult. An interesting approach that Salem took was having a safe city that you start in that you can't build anything in, can't fight in, can just buy and sell some things and trade with other players. Like ohol, there was no trading mechanic so it relied on trust, but unlike ohol, characters existed for a long time and grew reputations that meant people would trust them to not rip them off as they were putting things on the ground to trade.

Anyways, point is, you were able to magically teleport back and forth between your household and the one city to facilitate interaction with other players since encountering players in the wild was obscenely dangerous, so the city was sort of a Switzerland.

Obviously magical teleportation is nobody's favorite... It breaks immersion and circumvents interesting travel gameplay, but because you could only use it to go to and from your household and the city you still ended up having to do a lot of traveling, particularly initially when you're finding your place to settle.

I wonder what would happen if we could teleport to and from bell towers rather than just get pointers... A bell tower city would become a switzerland of sorts. It's a nice mechanic because it means you can keep your household location trivially secret while still interacting with people. I have a feeling Jason wouldn't go for it, but it would sure make the game more appealing to me since trade would suddenly be super viable. Also imagine how interesting the bell tower city would be, there would likely be people attempting to take control of it, and anyone controlling it would define the laws of city behavior

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#68 2019-12-07 01:34:21

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jcwilk wrote:

Maybe I should start doing ethical griefing, where I declare I'm going to attempt to end the family then give them a 10 minute grace period to prepare (as long as they don't simply surround the whole town with a single fence since that's a broken, undefeatable, uninteresting mechanic as-is). I think I'll do some experimenting with this and if I find something that works I'll post a guide on how to go about it in a (subjectively) gameplay improving way.

It's nice for people who might enjoy that contest to warn people like that.  I can see that as honorable to some degree.  But, it's a threat for anyone who doesn't want that contest and has no way to say 'no' to such a game.  Thus, I don't think it's as ethical as you seem to think it would be.  People would need to have the ability to say 'no' and get you to not play that game for it to work out alright.

I agree with Destiny here and repeat his request.  Please don't do that.  Especially not in a context with the chaos of bigserver2 and new players all around.

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#69 2019-12-07 02:00:58

Punkypal
Member
From: New Orleans
Registered: 2019-11-24
Posts: 245

Re: Infinite map is so fun

I don't think survival to 60 is hard honestly. I make it to 60 almost every life unless 1) I get careless running through a pack a wolves and time my doges wrong. A wolf or even sometimes a boar gets me about one in twenty-fives lives, or so. Never had a bear eat me yet though! 2) Someone murders me or my mother just doesn't feed me. 3) I take a phone call, and get distracted and starve. Also rare.

So I don't think the survival aspect is hard and it confuses me to look at a family tree and see that almost everyone starves. I wonder if some are intentional after a female isn't fertile anymore? Not sure.

I don't even think the early game setup is that hard. It is a little challenging and fun.

Finally I don't think the "end game" is hard, if you want to call an advanced town the "end game". I do think it's harder than the other things I mentioned before. Not particularly for the individual, but it's super hard for the town because so many elements need to be juggled, and if any ball gets dropped it can spell doom, And meanwhile you have people trying to burn it all down in greater numbers that earlier stages. If you took out the greifer factor, maybe it would be just right.

But it isn't that its harder that's ruining the fun. The problem becomes it's so much work to just keep it going, there isn't time to do what you want to do anymore. Serious and knowledgeable players have to constantly struggle to support the town, and as soon as they aren't able, the town dies and it still has no reason to die yet. It's hard to communicate to others what they need to do. Water going dry so quick is a big part of this because if you can't fill buckets, half of the easy jobs most players only know how to do suddenly stop dead. Being so spread out is a problem because players that want to get back to a town to try to keep it alive can't. This leaves lots of people doing a SID as a baby just to try to get back, and that's bad too. Towns die way faster than a road can even get half way to connecting to anything. If at least roads could get connected maybe people could travel back and try to resurrect a dead town, but that's hard if it's now 5k away and you can't even find it!

And you know what, I'm fine with a town dying, if it's possible to get it resurrected, but with Eves moving westward at the rate they are, it's simply faster than it's possible to get back to abandoned towns. Seriously, after like only three days the new spawn area is already way beyond the distance nearly any player can realistically travel to get back, and expect anyone else to come.

And roads are way too slow to build. One long weekend I spent almost every life building a road trying to connect two bell towns. I played about 10 hours a day. For three straight days. Just building roads. Mostly by myself but often I got help. I barely got halfway before both towns died and the Eve spawn area was 8k away. Road building as it is now is an exercise in futility. Yes it can help a town a bit as it's easier to pull in surrounding resources and guide people into town, but if there is any intention to connect us, forget about it. And that's frustrating.

And what's so annoying about the speed of expansion is there is so much vast space just being jumped over. You can run along any ley line and cross dozens and dozens and dozens of untapped springs. No there should not be a settlement at every spring, but there should be more than one every 50, or 75 or whatever way high number it is.

Basically I think almost all these problems could be solved if we weren't spread out so much. So many ways to do that. Eve's could spiral in a "circle" and not just ever westward. Allow an eve to spawn in an area that has reset because nobody has been there for 7 days. Do something so family lines dont die out so darn easily so there are less Eves anyway. I'm sure there are others things too.


Daily Updated Map of Player Structures: https://bit.ly/2UrfOQ9
Link to Many Beginner Guides: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNp6g7 … xcw/videos
Composting Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmgyl9evfhw
Diesel Engine Guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sMX_GlwgbA

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#70 2019-12-07 07:55:54

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Spoonwood wrote:
jcwilk wrote:

Maybe I should start doing ethical griefing, where I declare I'm going to attempt to end the family then give them a 10 minute grace period to prepare (as long as they don't simply surround the whole town with a single fence since that's a broken, undefeatable, uninteresting mechanic as-is). I think I'll do some experimenting with this and if I find something that works I'll post a guide on how to go about it in a (subjectively) gameplay improving way.

It's nice for people who might enjoy that contest to warn people like that.  I can see that as honorable to some degree.  But, it's a threat for anyone who doesn't want that contest and has no way to say 'no' to such a game.  Thus, I don't think it's as ethical as you seem to think it would be.  People would need to have the ability to say 'no' and get you to not play that game for it to work out alright.

I agree with Destiny here and repeat his request.  Please don't do that.  Especially not in a context with the chaos of bigserver2 and new players all around.

Yeah tricky balance between making things exciting and overwhelming. Decided against griefing cause I was born into one of the bell towns, and presumably wouldn't be able to do much damage even if I wanted to but I'm not trying to end bell towns.

Did end up making a small area of property though because people kept grabbing the wool I was producing before I could even get to a huge ball so i hoarded the stuff I was working on in there. A few people walked by and seemed a bit puzzled but not much they can do about it since property fences are pretty op. Eventually some boy from another family slipped in before I could close the door so i slipped right back on out leaving him in there to starve before returning to continue, no knife required and thank you for the backpack.

The way people kept grabbing anything and everything without warning was pretty annoying but property fences do seem to do the job, airlock design is the key... I was lazy and a poor child paid the price. Moment of silence

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#71 2019-12-07 12:28:37

testo
Member
Registered: 2019-05-12
Posts: 696

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Survival to 60 with the current food consumption and pipe value is laughable easy, even using just wild food/nomad playstyle. Food has never been the cause of civilization decline in this game. And yes infinite map is so ~much fun.


- I believe the term "Berrymuncher" is derogatory and therefore I shall use the term "Berrier" instead.

- Jack Ass

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#72 2019-12-07 16:25:30

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

testo wrote:

Survival to 60 with the current food consumption and pipe value is laughable easy, even using just wild food/nomad playstyle. Food has never been the cause of civilization decline in this game. And yes infinite map is so ~much fun.

For an experienced player, the biggest threat to survival is other people.   

As an example, I once started a life with a mother who named me "dead" and dropped me on a bear cave in the middle if the wilderness.   Despite that uninspiring start, I lived to sixty years old after spending most of my life by myself, hunting rabbits and avoiding other people/villages, depending on my wits and zoom mod to keep me alive.   

Ironically, I think my chances of survival were improved by being far away from my mother's village, since this life happened during the middle of the steam sale noob-apocalypse and the majority of active villages were starvation death zones.  Living off nature's bounty was more reliable than expecting other players to contribute to my survival.    My previous life was spent in a large town, filled with bones and hungry babies.  I died at age twenty three in the middle of town, hunting for a bite of food, because I was half naked, didn't have a backpack, and the whole village was stripped bare of anything immediately edible.   I got careless and focused too much on working to fix the broken town, instead of tending to my own food requirements.

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#73 2019-12-08 15:48:47

Bowser
Member
Registered: 2019-11-30
Posts: 55

Re: Infinite map is so fun

sigmen4020 wrote:
fug wrote:

Issue with the infinite map is he literally waited one week before adding a gimmick to make the game be in a pseudo rift.

I have no idea why he implemented something that should have been a rift update (requiring families of different tones) into a world where he hasn't made it exactly possible for all the families to be close (if they even exist.)

Low pop hours its possible to not have all the skin tones + have duplicates which frankly makes the tech tree impossible regardless if people are close or not.

We have the issue where something is absolutely fucking up Eve spawns and shooting people too far which puts a giant jump gap in between families.


Basically poorly designed gimmick + bugs in new eve spiral =bad. He should have let players actually experience life outside of the rift instead of just trying to corral them into a self made box.

Yeah, specialty update would have been a lot more appropriate for the rift, since it was actually possible to find other families there. Imo the game would be in an alright state if it wasn’t for the specialty update. I’m not even that bothered by the tool limits anymore, outside of some stupidities in the system that needs to be ironed out.

Do we really need to dedicate a tool slot to a pencil? And should putting kindling on a fire that’s about to go out really make you learn hot coals as a tool? And adding on to that, why are hot coals a tool to begin with?

The past few days before we got two new bell towns rolling (and I take pride in being a part of both, I made the bell for the east bell town and hung the one for the west), it was really horrible.  Towns would die as soon as their newcomen well got a torn seal, and no one had any idea how to find anyone else.  I've spent an entire lifetime traveling to different areas, looking for maps and anything else that might lead me to civilization only to find dead town after dead town, eventually giving up so I could bring something home and die with family.

It wasn't until the bell towns went up that we could finally find people again.  Even with bell towns, the constant murder, anarchy, and general griefing leaves them in a constant state of disrepair and makes them basically useless.  I started about a week or two ago and I have literally never seen a photo taken, a car driven, or a plane in any shape or form.  I think I've seen an engine run on a well one time ever.  This isn't much fun for me.

I would have liked to see pre-rift, but I do like being able to explore endlessly, too.  I think what would help the most are tools to find other families.  Maybe make bell towers easier, or make temporary bell towers.  Some way to get people to come to your town and know where it is without sheer dumb luck.

I find it staggering that before the bell town went up, that one of the families I was getting born to was a staggering 3 km away from it.  How are you supposed to find the bell town in that way, especially if you are traveling east... where civilization will inevitably die?  Let alone without horses.

Maybe what would help the most is real map making ingame, giving us a real idea of where towns lie and how far they are.  But we clearly need more tools if we are keeping family specialties and endless wilderness.  Ingame coordinates (from specialized tools), radios (we already have them, they just need to be a bit easier to make alone), and real maps would be steps in the right direction.

Last edited by Bowser (2019-12-08 15:51:37)

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#74 2019-12-08 15:57:50

Bowser
Member
Registered: 2019-11-30
Posts: 55

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DestinyCall wrote:
testo wrote:

Survival to 60 with the current food consumption and pipe value is laughable easy, even using just wild food/nomad playstyle. Food has never been the cause of civilization decline in this game. And yes infinite map is so ~much fun.

For an experienced player, the biggest threat to survival is other people.   

As an example, I once started a life with a mother who named me "dead" and dropped me on a bear cave in the middle if the wilderness.   Despite that uninspiring start, I lived to sixty years old after spending most of my life by myself, hunting rabbits and avoiding other people/villages, depending on my wits and zoom mod to keep me alive.   

Ironically, I think my chances of survival were improved by being far away from my mother's village, since this life happened during the middle of the steam sale noob-apocalypse and the majority of active villages were starvation death zones.  Living off nature's bounty was more reliable than expecting other players to contribute to my survival.    My previous life was spent in a large town, filled with bones and hungry babies.  I died at age twenty three in the middle of town, hunting for a bite of food, because I was half naked, didn't have a backpack, and the whole village was stripped bare of anything immediately edible.   I got careless and focused too much on working to fix the broken town, instead of tending to my own food requirements.

Interesting story.  I haven't faced many real starvation issues in big towns, but I do know that in big towns I frequently am fighting nonstop to get a town out of the dump only to be held back by so many others being lazy or just acting stupid... sometimes out of spite.  (One time I asked people not to eat carrots which we were short on, so we could feed sheep and get by... only for the kid to intentionally scarf several in front of me for us to run out of carrots.  Lost my temper at that point; cursed him and left the dump of a town.)

It's sad that you had to live alone to survive, and presumably if you are male you don't have much to look forward to.  I considered doing the same on the story I mentioned above, but I did eventually find a town I could help... found about twenty horses near it, and turned the town into a thriving city because of it.  I've been in many families where a lone female will leave a crappy town to make a new one in the wilderness, and many of my best experiences have been with towns like that. 

I do want to ask though, how did you survive to age 3?  Or did she drop you off at age 3?  Did some stranger's kindness save you?  I would have sought out my mom if she was still alive, to let her know I survived out of spite to her negligence.  I might even kill them, if they went so far as to name me "Dead". quipping "Who's Dead now?"  There is a lot of potential for interesting stories in this game...

Last edited by Bowser (2019-12-08 15:58:43)

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#75 2019-12-08 16:27:46

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Bowser wrote:

I do want to ask though, how did you survive to age 3?  Or did she drop you off at age 3?  Did some stranger's kindness save you?  I would have sought out my mom if she was still alive, to let her know I survived out of spite to her negligence.  I might even kill them, if they went so far as to name me "Dead". quipping "Who's Dead now?"  There is a lot of potential for interesting stories in this game...

It's kind of a funny story.    Immediately after I was born, her first words to me were "You are Deadard".   I was able to read between the lines and realize what she was actually trying to say to me.   We were in the middle of the wilderness with no town in sight and no other people.   Her next words to be me were "Sorry."   Then she ran toward a nearby bear cave. 

Now, I'm not a mind reader, but I can connect dots.

So as soon as she set me down on the cold hard ground in front of the bear cave, I booked it on my stubby little baby legs.   As predicted, she poked the cave to release the bear.   But I was already a couple tiles away when it popped out.   She ran away to eat some gooseberries.   And I hunted her down with a /sad look on my face, silently asking her why she had to do me like that.    I figured if I was going to starve to death, I would do it right next to her, so she had to look me in the eyes while I gasped my last baby breath.   Babies are slow, but it actually takes a pretty long time for a fed baby to starve completely.  An uncomfortably long time for a baby to look up at you with his sad sad eyes.

We stared at each other for a while in silence.    Then I said a single "F".   And she decided to pick me up.   

She obviously wasn't really into the whole "motherhood" thing, but she wasn't completely heartless.   

Then my brother was born.   A new opportunity to win "Mother of the Year".   I could tell Mom wasn't that thrilled about this miracle, because her first words to my brother were "You are Deadrick".   Yup ... same old mom.  Such a kidder.    Then the games began ...

"Alright kids ... play rock paper scissors.   The winner gets to eat."

Me and Deadrick look at each other.   I make a /sad face.  Deadrick says F.

I wait.

Deadrick says "FF"

I wait.

Deadrick starves to death.

I say "I" ... "Win" ... "FFF"

Mom feeds me one last time before my hair grows in.    I immediately grab the last gooseberry off the bush next to my mother and say "Bye" ... "Mom".    Then I run into the warm embrace of Mother Nature, living off wild foods and gathering supplies to survival on my own at three years old.

That's the last time I saw my birth mom.   She died at some point during my teen years.   Hopefully eaten by the same bear she released.

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