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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#1 2019-12-05 12:02:47

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Infinite map is so fun

Amazing gameplay Sans-titre.jpg

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#2 2019-12-05 12:42:38

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 827

Re: Infinite map is so fun

!


Race car go brrr

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#3 2019-12-05 13:34:07

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 600

Re: Infinite map is so fun

boo hoo no one liked my rift idea :c


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#4 2019-12-05 14:26:16

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

boo hoo no one liked my rift idea :c

Buy some glasses i never had the idea of the "rift", enjoy you sea of nothingness and uninteresting repeated wildlife btw smile

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#5 2019-12-05 14:31:50

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

There's clearly more civilization building going on now.  Also, we don't have people supposedly trying to reset The Arc, which since it wasn't people playing for their lineages and an attempt at civilization destruction, we don't have that form of griefing anymore.  Thus, there exists some reason to believe that griefing has gone down.

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#6 2019-12-05 15:36:31

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Spoonwood wrote:

There's clearly more civilization building going on now.  Also, we don't have people supposedly trying to reset The Arc, which since it wasn't people playing for their lineages and an attempt at civilization destruction, we don't have that form of griefing anymore.  Thus, there exists some reason to believe that griefing has gone down.

Empty civilisations how exciting... I guess it's true that it's a building game after all, a 2D minecraft, so great.

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#7 2019-12-05 16:06:15

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

There have to exist empty civilizations, because some civilizations have to fail.  If there were no civilizations that failed, then it wouldn't feel like a real challenge to say make a civilization that makes it to the advanced point of having a belltower, because without the possibility of failure, there doesn't exist a feeling of challenge.

And we have to have civilizations that fail for civilization building to keep on going.  Or at least new ones to get found.  Having 90% of the civilization be beyond generation 20, or whatever it was inside of The Rift, involves large amounts of civilization maintainence.  It also resulted in lives being samey.

And Minecraft has been (and continues to be) more popular than OHOL.

And more lives are different with the infinite map, since people get born at different stages of civilization development with the ever-growing map (the map is always finite at a particular time, but grows as people go out... the term 'infinite map' is a misnomer).  Every life is supposed to feel truly different and things have gotten closer to that with the ever-growing map.

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#8 2019-12-05 16:14:12

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 600

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Maybe stop playing the game. You're not having fun with it, why play?

Everyone needs a break sometimes.


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#9 2019-12-05 16:47:33

fug
Member
Registered: 2019-08-21
Posts: 1,004

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Issue with the infinite map is he literally waited one week before adding a gimmick to make the game be in a pseudo rift.

I have no idea why he implemented something that should have been a rift update (requiring families of different tones) into a world where he hasn't made it exactly possible for all the families to be close (if they even exist.)

Low pop hours its possible to not have all the skin tones + have duplicates which frankly makes the tech tree impossible regardless if people are close or not.

We have the issue where something is absolutely fucking up Eve spawns and shooting people too far which puts a giant jump gap in between families.


Basically poorly designed gimmick + bugs in new eve spiral =bad. He should have let players actually experience life outside of the rift instead of just trying to corral them into a self made box.


Worlds oldest SID baby.

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#10 2019-12-05 17:07:10

sigmen4020
Member
Registered: 2019-01-05
Posts: 827

Re: Infinite map is so fun

fug wrote:

Issue with the infinite map is he literally waited one week before adding a gimmick to make the game be in a pseudo rift.

I have no idea why he implemented something that should have been a rift update (requiring families of different tones) into a world where he hasn't made it exactly possible for all the families to be close (if they even exist.)

Low pop hours its possible to not have all the skin tones + have duplicates which frankly makes the tech tree impossible regardless if people are close or not.

We have the issue where something is absolutely fucking up Eve spawns and shooting people too far which puts a giant jump gap in between families.


Basically poorly designed gimmick + bugs in new eve spiral =bad. He should have let players actually experience life outside of the rift instead of just trying to corral them into a self made box.

Yeah, specialty update would have been a lot more appropriate for the rift, since it was actually possible to find other families there. Imo the game would be in an alright state if it wasn’t for the specialty update. I’m not even that bothered by the tool limits anymore, outside of some stupidities in the system that needs to be ironed out.

Do we really need to dedicate a tool slot to a pencil? And should putting kindling on a fire that’s about to go out really make you learn hot coals as a tool? And adding on to that, why are hot coals a tool to begin with?

Last edited by sigmen4020 (2019-12-05 17:08:02)


Race car go brrr

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#11 2019-12-05 17:12:44

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: Infinite map is so fun

I find it kind of sad that when Dodge says the map is really fun right now everyone immediately knows he is being sarcastic. 

What has happened to this game?

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#12 2019-12-05 17:23:42

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: Infinite map is so fun

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Maybe stop playing the game. You're not having fun with it, why play?

Everyone needs a break sometimes.

You seem on edge maybe you're the one that needs a break smile

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#13 2019-12-05 19:02:28

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Yesterday I was born in a doomed town. Not surprising, nearly every town is doomed from the start now that newcomen technology is impossible to build. It was a nice place but there was simply just no water. Nearly everyone had died and I was the last girl in town, so I took responsibility to try and find a way to survive.

Fortunately, we were desert people and had several horse carts. During childhood I geared up and loaded the cart with seal skin coats and backpacks full of steel, the most luxury goods in town. Gifts to show goodwill in a new home. As soon as I was old enough to ride I got on the back of that horse and followed a map to another town.

When I got there it was dead. Abandoned. The well was dry and they had no rubber. This would become the theme for that life. I dropped a couple of babies off, found a new map and kept riding. During that life I traveled over ten kilometers and found at least half a dozen towns. All dead, with dry deep wells.

After I'd already reached old age I found a map to a multicultural hub city several kilometers away. I saddled up and rode directly towards it, hoping to at least leave my goods with people that could use them. The final song played when I was just a few hundred meters outside of town.

Right now the map is just a huge wasteland full of dead towns that failed to """bootstrap""" past an impossible challenge. It's virtually impossible to get past early game tech now. Every town is just a crappy little eve camp struggling and failing to survive on the impossible hope that the right family will find them in time.


Loco Motion

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#14 2019-12-05 22:24:48

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: Infinite map is so fun

It's supposed to be hard.  Really hard.  Almost impossible to keep a town going forever.

If that's the case, then where does this challenge come from?

I've tried having resources run out, but too many other things need to be sacrificed to make this happen (infinite map, parallel villages on different timelines).

So now I'm trying collective cooperation as a source of challenge.  Can you find others?  Can you work with them to get what you need in order to survive long term?

Is it very very hard, yes.

Is it impossible?  No.  In the past week, the record for a lineage is 94 generations, and several fams lasted 60+ generations (15+ hours).

Did the prediction of "we'll all just live together in a melting-pot village" come to pass?  No, it seems like it didn't.


Let's look at some real data.

Yesterday, there were 79 Eves placed.

There were 4 Newcomen Pumps built today.  There were 9 built yesterday.


Looking at OneMap, the eve placement looks normal (a grid pattern that moves gradually to the west).  Families are close together.  Walking 10,000 tiles is not needed.

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#15 2019-12-05 22:27:29

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Also, quick VOG survey shows things looking vibrant enough.

There are currently two fams with Newc pumps.

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#16 2019-12-05 22:36:53

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, quick VOG survey shows things looking vibrant enough.

There are currently two fams with Newc pumps.

Are these two families living in the same town? Are they the two specialties required to make rubber? Those two are the basic requirements for survival past primitive technology. I surveyed the surviving families earlier today. There were a couple of brown families and one white family. All of them lived in single-family towns and none of them had rubber. A single-family town that has a dry newcomen with torn rubber seal is not vibrant. It's doomed.

I wanted to play the game and I couldn't because every single town was doomed. The only option was to roam bland uninteresting wilderness and hope that I stumbled upon a nearby neighbor and that they would be the right color. It's hopeless. This is ten times worse than the rift ever was, and that was total hell. The game is completely unplayable right now.


Loco Motion

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#17 2019-12-05 22:39:07

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, quick VOG survey shows things looking vibrant enough.

There are currently two fams with Newc pumps.

We were being spread thin by this

https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/issues/442

Last edited by Grim_Arbiter (2019-12-05 22:39:52)


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#18 2019-12-05 22:47:02

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Also jason check out pein's summary of everything on this post

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=8618


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#19 2019-12-05 22:49:06

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Legs, they are two separate fams, not living together.

One was brown, the other was ginger.

I'm not sure what you mean by "unplayable," given that playing the game means living an hour-long life in whatever context you find yourself in.  Could you not find food for yourself or your babies?  Could you not find a spot in which to dig a primitive well?  Could you not start a new town?

The lack of a pump is a trans-generation problem, not a problem facing any one person alone.  Someone, at some point in the timeline of a village, needs to solve this problem.  But every player in every life does not need to solve this problem directly.  It is also possible to make a contribution toward solving this problem, that will help future generations, without directly solving it.

For example:

--make a map or a waystone based around the best information you currently have about where another town might be.

--build waystones around your town, to help people find you.

--migrate the family to another spot, and start a new primitive town, to buy time, and leave a waystone in the old location.

--make water outposts to buy time.

--start building a bell tower.


At least one of the families is currently "cheating" by planting rubber trees outside of the jungle.  That glitch will be fixed this week.


I also see that extra spreading bug, and will fix it.

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#20 2019-12-05 22:53:39

fug
Member
Registered: 2019-08-21
Posts: 1,004

Re: Infinite map is so fun

jasonrohrer wrote:

Is it impossible?  No.  In the past week, the record for a lineage is 94 generations, and several fams lasted 60+ generations (15+ hours).

The thing is Tuesday night there was a period where it was completely impossible to trade even if people wanted to.

You had four lineages with two being gingers, one being black, and one being white (and a brown eve trying to spawn but either failing instantly or wasn't being triggered) and even if the whites/west side gingers wanted to climb the tech tree the blacks were 8k+ east in a bell town and the browns would spawn 10k+ west of the blacks in bell town.

2 hr trip back and forth just to get some rubber would be ridiculous by all standards and isn't difficult at all. As grim posted there is/was a bug that screws up the spawns of Eves which then makes a giant gap between the normal Eve spawns which can visibly be seen on any sort of detailed map.


It feels dumb that Eve play is once again about going and looking to find a city instead of trying to make a city from scratch because if you don't run into the right colored people you fail. All this limiting doesn't make the game feel any harder it just feels tedious because you can't figure out a way to make the game difficult for people who have nearly a year and a half experience.


The game isn't ever really going to be "hard" for any of the vets and just trickles down to the new players who join in. Why not focus on adding interesting things instead of focusing on half working gimmicks?

Tools still don't all work how they're supposed to and some tools seem silly (looking at you lasso especially when learning it by cutting it.)
Still can't recycle all the steel items and iron can't be recycled.


I get it'll take a lot of work to fix things but you're constantly adding more and more partially broken things on top of each other.


Worlds oldest SID baby.

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#21 2019-12-05 23:22:34

Twisted
Member
Registered: 2018-10-12
Posts: 655

Re: Infinite map is so fun

I think it's fine (mostly).

Pre-Rift towns would die out all the time, but they didn't die out due to people failing to band together - they died out because RNG didn't give you enough girls.

During the Rift era the baby spawning mechanics were tweaked as to make families dying our to RNG almost impossible. Indeed, this is where we had the longest family lines despite massive amounts of griefing.

One of the biggest complaints about the Rift was the lack of different tech levels among lives. But the only way to get different tech level towns is for some towns to die out, otherwise the first few towns would last for days and new families would rarely appear. We'd have the same problem that we had in the Rift - there would be five or six main towns at a similar tech levels, and you'd spend most lives in those towns.

Previously you might have been born into a town with need of a Diesel Engine. What do you do? You go out, find some iron, and make a Diesel Engine. If you've made ten of them in the past, the eleventh one is basically just easy busywork. Town without a Newcomen? You go out, find some iron and rubber, and make a Newcomen. Those things are hard to grasp and learn, but once you've done them a few times they're basically muscle memory. You don't even need anyone's assistance (although it does help). Sure, tool slots made it harder for one player to carry a village by themselves, but that only raised the bar to two veteran players (that don't even have to be alive at the same time).

What the family specializion update does is it gives us a challenge that can't be solved by a single veteran player. This makes it harder for towns to stabilize and last a long time. Sure, once the town stabilizes and gets a Diesel Pump it's going to last a long time (we've had a couple of those already and they've all been fairly memorable). But most towns aren't going to get there.

Sure, there are some problems with the system, I agree, but I think generally the concept behind it is fine. Eves can currently be too far apart due to a bug, but that will get fixed. Jason's idea behind the update was to encourage trade, but that obviously didn't happen as trading is an extremely inferior to just making mixed towns. And yeah, Desert and Jungle families are so much more important than Arctic and Language families due to the current tech progression. There's flaws (big ones), but the idea of having to go out and find other people to cooperate with to survive is great and it's what this game should be about.

Some things I'd like to see are more Well levels. Currently we have Shallow and Deep Wells, which are extremely basic Eve-level tech, and then we jump to requiring cooperation with other families to get a Newcomen. Having more Well levels would mean that there's different things to work towards before turning your focus towards exploration, and it would give you more time to find other civilizations organically. I'd love to see two more Well levels between Deep and Newcomen:

1.) an advanced-ish single-family Well that requires cooperation between members of the same family to achieve. It feels weird to go from basic Eve-level tech to requiring cooperation from another family, and a specific family at that.

2.) a Well that requires ANY other family to make, not specifically the Jungle and Desert family. Let's say that each family has a resource that only they can harvest, let's call them A, B, C, and D. You can combine any two of those to make X, and X is required to make (and maybe maintain) this new Well. This would mean you're happy to find any family to trade with, instead having to find a specific one. What would those items be? I have no idea and I have no idea if there's even anything that would make sense.

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#22 2019-12-05 23:29:54

Legs
Member
Registered: 2019-07-12
Posts: 376

Re: Infinite map is so fun

The game is ostensibly about family and civ building.

Practically every town is doomed to fail as soon as a primitive well runs dry, so playing feels pointless. Who wants to work on building up a town that's just going to die an hour later?

You're born into a place with a dry deep well. There's only one family in town. It's immediately obvious that this family and civilization are doomed. The whole point of the game is defeated. That's the experience in every town right now.

So let's say you try to force the issue with stopgap measures. Make a map or a waystone. It leads people to your long-dead town. Migrate your family. All you find are long-dead towns. Gather pond water and build distant wells. It's a waste of time, the town is doomed, nobody will ever find it and there's no point trying.

We're at a point where I've seen people just running around killing everyone in town and nobody cares. Nobody runs or questions it. They all know they're doomed anyway. That's the game right now.


Loco Motion

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#23 2019-12-05 23:31:11

Twisted
Member
Registered: 2018-10-12
Posts: 655

Re: Infinite map is so fun

fug wrote:

Tools still don't all work how they're supposed to and some tools seem silly (looking at you lasso especially when learning it by cutting it.)
Still can't recycle all the steel items and iron can't be recycled.


I get it'll take a lot of work to fix things but you're constantly adding more and more partially broken things on top of each other.


I just wanted to second this. The issues list is getting bigger with every update, and there's a lot of 'broken' content in the game right now.

For example, it's been over a month since tools were added and there's still a bunch of bugs with them. I love the tool system (I think it's the best thing that was ever added to the game), but right now it's half-finished content. Also, the whole tool system is rendered kind of moot with the infinite gene score leaderboard. It's almost impossible for your score to go down unless you kill your own family, which means that your points will always go up over time. The more points you have the more tool slots you get, and having many tool slots is functionally identical to having infinite tool slots in 95% of lives which means you never have to make any tool decisions.

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#24 2019-12-05 23:36:08

Twisted
Member
Registered: 2018-10-12
Posts: 655

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Legs wrote:

You're born into a place with a dry deep well. There's only one family in town. It's immediately obvious that this family and civilization are doomed. The whole point of the game is defeated. That's the experience in every town right now.

I think this is exaggeration. I think I've only seen one dry well in the past week. Wells don't go dry that quickly any more. And even when they do, you still have options of ferrying in buckets of water from nearby ponds or making another backup well at the edge of the tapout zone. Or you can just grab a cart and make a colony nearby. Or you can go exploring and try to find other families. Saying that a family is doomed because they have a dry well is just plain false.

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#25 2019-12-05 23:39:21

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: Infinite map is so fun

Jason fug has two very important points (and other ones, but I'll re-emphasize two of them).

1. It has to be possible that a family can climb the tech tree.  From the information in fug's report it wasn't, and it might not be during the early hours of the morning in the United States.

2.

fug wrote:

It feels dumb that Eve play is once again about going and looking to find a city instead of trying to make a city from scratch because if you don't run into the right colored people you fail.

Your game is after all supposed to be a game of civilization building (and parenting).  If the optimal meta for Eve, let's call her Eve Ginger, isn't usually to found a town, but instead lies in finding other families or finding another town and building on top of it, then everything feels if not actually is off.  If Eve Ginger and her children aren't supposed to be building a civilization, how is it from the ground up a game of civilization building?

I will say that I like the idea of families trading in OHOL.  And I'm not opposed to things be challenging.  That only a few families climb the tech tree isn't necessarily bad, it's only a question of balancing of how many families should climb the tech tree.  But, if optimal strategy isn't one of civilization building from the ground up, I'm not so sure that calling it a game of civilization building is accurate.

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