Anyone else hate this new tool update?

Toxolotl · 2019-11-05 08:04:25

Dodge wrote:

OR change the pace of the game then...
Also "artificial" tool limits, can you really learn to be smith, sheppard, tailor, baker, engineer, farmer, builder etc in a single life IRL?
What's really artificial is being able to learn an infinite number of things in a single life, having one person that has 20 jobs is the real artificial thing.

It's not unreasonable for someone to have twenty jobs within sixty years. Especially if they dedicate years of their lives to each one. What is kinda unreasonable is only being able to learn how to use six to eight tools within sixty years. I personally like the pace of the game, it's exciting. The real issue i find is we reach the progression ceiling very quickly. Instead of trying to stagnate that process wouldn't it be far more interesting to extend the length of that progression?

Dodge · 2019-11-05 08:17:16

Toxolotl wrote:

Dodge wrote:
OR change the pace of the game then...
Also "artificial" tool limits, can you really learn to be smith, sheppard, tailor, baker, engineer, farmer, builder etc in a single life IRL?
What's really artificial is being able to learn an infinite number of things in a single life, having one person that has 20 jobs is the real artificial thing.
It's not unreasonable for someone to have twenty jobs within sixty years. Especially if they dedicate years of their lives to each one. What is kinda unreasonable is only being able to learn how to use six to eight tools within sixty years. I personally like the pace of the game, it's exciting. The real issue i find is we reach the progression ceiling very quickly. Instead of trying to stagnate that process wouldn't it be far more interesting to extend the length of that progression?

Yeah you're right learning to make clothes and diesel engines from scratch and also animal husbandry is totally reasonnable.

Oh and all this at the same time on top of that

I wonder why we have jobs and specialiations in real life hmmm

Maybe you personnally like running around and do a million stuff but this limits any form of communication in the game, if someone wants to talk to you while you're running left and right it's going to be very annoying, plus since it's still uneeded to communicate to this level it will just slow down what you are doing instead of improving survival.

If communication decreases survival then there is still changes that need to be done.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 08:50:46

There are many ways that OHOL tries to imitate real life and many ways where it either does not try or falls far short of that goal. In real life, many people (but certainly not all people) chose a particular profession and dedicate a significant chunk of their life to training and gaining skill in that profession. In OHOL, that kind of dedication is rare. It is much more common to see people moving between jobs and doing whatever needs to be done at the moment, since the needs of the village are constantly in flux. In the first fifteen minutes of your life, there might be a critical food shortage, while in the next fifteen minutes, the food shortage has been addressed, but now there is a lack of compost because all the dirt was used up to plant new crops. And then toward the end of your life, you might need to address a serious water shortage as all the farming drains the water reserves. It doesn't make sense to spend all sixty minutes of your life baking pies, since you can't bake pies without water or wheat or mutton, so if something is seriously wrong with the town, you will need to stop your specialized task and fix the supply chain before you can focus on pie production in isolation. A humble baker is also a wheat farmer, shepherd, compost maker, and water hauler.

In real life, it takes a long time to master certain challenging skills while other things are pretty easy to pick up after the first attempt. In OHOL, all tool skills are binary. You either know it completely or not at all. And all crafting interactions are 100% successful or completely impossible. You can't try to do something and do a bad job. You either do it perfectly or you can't do it at all. There's nothing particularly realistic about the way that tool skills are implemented in the game. Maybe it is suppose to represent how "difficult" it is to learn multiple tools in a single life, but it falls short of the goal ... since all tools are equally challenging. Learning how to use a lasso is as hard as learning how to use a smithing hammer which is as hard as learning how to use hot coals. But is it really reasonable for all these "tools" to take up a full tool slot? If that slot is suppose to represent the challenge of mastering a new tool, why are simple tools and much more complex tools taking up the same amount of space? The whole system is clunky and unintuitive. Calling it more realistic is just a cop-out.

Survival games are generally improved by adding greater realism, since it can make the game feel more real and visceral ... and it allows the player to understand how the game world works by applying real world logic. When done correctly, realism adds to the depth and feel of the game. It encourages suspension of disbelief and lets you imagine yourself existing within the world created by the game. I like many of the "realism" aspects of OHOL and I think it gives the game's crafting system a unique character. But realism for the sake of realism isn't always good. In fact, realism done wrong can be very, very bad. Ideally, elements of realism should be carefully balanced with game mechanics to allow for smooth and engaging game-play while recreating the world in a somewhat realistic way.

For example, in the real world, if I come inside on a cold day, I'll remove my hat and jacket. It's warm inside my house and I don't need the extra layers. In fact, I'll over-heat if I keep all that clothing on. But in OHOL, I don't want to remove my clothes every time I come inside a warm building. I won't be staying inside the building very long and there's nowhere to put my hat if I take it off, except the ground, where it takes up a full empty tile and will probably get stolen by a naked baby. Making the game more realistic by causing players overheat if they keep their jacket and hat on while inside a warm house is not good game design. Players will not appreciate being forced to perform a tedious action for the sake of "realism", when it doesn't match the in-game reality and they will find creative solutions to avoid the artificial problem.

Tool limits are not a good solution. They don't address any of the real issues in the game right now and just create more problems that will need to be solved down the road.

CatX · 2019-11-05 08:52:37

New idea:
What if you could get extra tool slots if someone teaches a tool to you?

Dodge · 2019-11-05 09:18:27

DestinyCall wrote:

Tool limits are not a good solution. They don't address any of the real issues in the game right now and just create more problems that will need to be solved down the road.

Sure just let everyone do everything and why not go back to the carrot farming days...

But maybe you have a better idea?

Right now players dont need to communicate, and usually conversations with your childs go like this "HI BABY" "BYE" "GL", would you agree with that?

Or do you disagree and communicate a lot with your children because the game requires you to communicate with them in order to survive? Oh wait that's not the case...

Tool limit is a step in the right direction, now we need to adresse the other issues, like why are we still not communicating while being limited in what we can do?

Surely if we cant do everything we should need others more right? And this would bring richer interactions between players right?

Well it still isn't the case currently so there is still something wrong.

There is a couple of things i noticed:

The pace of the game is too fast to communicate, being as fast as possible instead of communication is still the best strategy in order for a village to survive.

Everyone is scattered around running in random directions instead of acting as a group, this is because you dont have to regroup in a shelter for example in order to survive, farming naked outside without a house for extended periods of time is still a viable strategy as long as you are fast enough...

Not acting as a group should be a death sentence, trying to go solo and not interacting should be the worst strategy and lead to the family dying eventually, but it's not the case currently that's why the tool limit still doesn't have a real place in the game.

Constantly going against the changes that are happening is really limiting the progression of the game...

Toxolotl · 2019-11-05 09:37:23

Dodge i would love to hear your positive experiences with this new update.

Building an engine takes a significant amount of time and i don't think its unreasonable that a person could build one within their life time. What is kind of silly is that the process might take considerably longer with cooperation since the update.

Plenty of people dedicate a large portion of their lives to a craft but find passion in something else and change professions. Being able to change your mind or redirect your life is an important part of the human experience.

Like i mentioned in my previous post i think there are healthier ways to promote cooperation and communication in game. Between the language update and what DestinyCall has mentioned communication is difficult and can be a liability in many situations. It would be nice to see more updates that encourage communication and cooperation without making things more frustrating than they have to be.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 09:57:14

Toxolotl wrote:

...

Do you have any idea on how to make communication an essential part of the game?

To go from "HI BABY" "BYE BABY" to longer conversations needed in order for your family to survive?

I would be glad to hear about them...

Your idea of improving communication is "add more spoken letters pls" or "add a general chat like other MMO games"

It still doesn't take care of the root problem:

Communication is not needed.

Not interacting is still the best strategy currently so even if you add 10'000 ways to facilitate communication, it's still useless.

That is the real issue and without solving this everything else added is just fluff.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 10:04:30

Dodge wrote:

But maybe you have a better idea?

I have several better ideas, but I doubt they will be implemented. Nothing I suggest seems to make any difference, since game development is headed in the other direction.

I've mentioned this elsewhere, but I'd much rather see "professional titles" rather than limited tool slots as a way to implement skills in-game. Maybe I should re-post the idea in its own thread, since it was kind of buried in the middle of a long discussion and mostly ignored/not noticed. Probably too late to make any difference, but doesn't hurt to try, I guess.

Here's some of the posts I've made about the idea:

DestinyCall wrote:

Here's an idea ... professional titles that convey skill. When you approach adulthood (16 years old and beyond), you can claim a profession using a text command ... for example, "I am a baker." Once you have declared your profession, you gain the associated title "Tom Johnson the Baker", which can be viewed by other players. From this point onward, you are a baker and can do baker things better than non-bakers. At any time, you can change your profession, "I am a smith." .... maybe you tried out being a baker, but it wasn't the right fit, so you decided to change careers. No problem, now you are Tom Johnson the Smith and have access to smithing skills. You can change jobs as much as you like without direct penalty or special training. But if you remain in a particular profession long enough, you will eventually master it.
After twenty minutes (twenty years working in the same profession), you will become a master smith or master farmer or whatever. Now you are even better at your chosen profession and gain additional benefits for choosing to specialize, rather than job-hopping forever. Since you can't pick a job until you are 16 and it takes twenty years to reach mastery in a given field ... and you will be dead by sixty ... you can only master one profession each life. You can change jobs a lot as a young person, but the more time you spend in different jobs, the less time you will have as a master of your chosen field later in life. And if you die before reaching forty or change jobs too much, you will never reach master level. If you reach master and switch professions, you lose mastery, so either stick with your chosen job at that point or take the hit.
In this system, it would benefit you to seek out a master smith or master farmer or whatever when you need to do a specialty job that is outside of your field of expertise. And it would be important to decide on a career path relatively early on in your life. Once you master a given field, you would want to actually use your specialized skills, rather than changing your skill set again and again to fit the situation. And as a child, you would want to get to know the village and figure out what skills will be needed - if the master baker is getting really old, you might want to become her apprentice before your village runs out of tasty pies.
...
So what does it mean to be a "farmer" or "master farmer"? What about "smith" and "master smith"? What is the difference between a baker and a non-baker? There are a number of ways this could be handled, depending on how exactly you want skills to work. One option would be to lock certain transitions - only bakers can bake pies. Only master bakers can bake the best pies. Only smiths can smith tools. Only master smiths can smith the most advanced tools/tech. Only farmers can farm/harvest crops. Only master farmers can farm/harvest the most advanced/specialized crops.
Alternatively, I would prefer a failure/boon system. Non-bakers can bake, but there is a 20% chance for a failure - burnt pie (half value or inedible). Bakers can bake well - 10% chance of burnt pie and 10% chance of tasty pie (double value). Master bakers can bake even better - 20% chance of tasty pie, no failure risk. Non-farmers can farm, but there is a 20% chance of rotten harvest (inedible). Farmers can farm well - 10% chance of rotten harvest, 10% chance of double harvest (two crops instead of one). Master farmers can farm even better - 20% chance of double harvest, no failure risk. Non-smith can smith, but 20% chance of creating twisted iron when using the smithing hammer (requires reforging in scrap bowl). Smiths can smith well - 10% chance of twisted iron and 10% chance of crafting durable tools (double uses) when making finished tools. Master smiths can smith even better - 20% chance of durable tools, no failure risk.
Each profession grants you access to certain special abilities and reduces risk when attempting skill-based activities. Anyone can help prepare ingredients and put together pies, but only a baker or master baker should bake the pies. Anyone can make charcoal and smelt iron, but only a smith should use the hammer. Anyone can make rows of dirt, plant seeds, and water crops, but only a farmer should harvest the crops when they are ready. However, if the smith is dead and you need a new shovel, Farmer Bob can do what needs to be done to keep the village alive.

DestinyCall wrote:

I considered some kind of actual job experience requirement for declaring or advancing in a profession, but I feel like it adds an unnecessary layer of complexity without really providing much from a gameplay perspective. I don't want professions to feel grindy - "I must bake exactly ten pies to become a master baker, oh no ... I only have enough wheat for eight pies. I guess I am stuck as a regular baker until the farmer harvests more wheat." This encourages you to play a job mastery mini-game, that won't always match up with the realities of your village or its needs. There is a high chance it will end up feeling artificial and too gamey. I'd rather keep the focus on the decision to pick the right profession for you and for your village and then to aim to utilize your advantages while avoiding your weaknesses. The time requirement is important, because it rewards deciding on a profession early and sticking with your choice. You can keep changing jobs to gain the basic advantages, but if you do that, you will end up a "Jack of all trades, master of none", never reaching master level in any of your many jobs.
It might even be better to call the advanced title "senior baker" or "senior farmer" to emphasize that this is a rank achieved due to time in the field. This also fits nicely with the fact that anyone who has reached a senior rank will be in their forties or fifties. They will soon be an elder and need to be replaced by younger skilled workers. As a child in the village, you can look around to see who is "senior smith" or "senior baker" and if the village has any younger bakers or smiths yet. Ideally, most early villages will need at least a few key positions filled, with other players just picking up work where they find it... but larger towns will have many more jobs that need doing and might even need engineers, tailors, carpenters, masons ... and more! This means more unique jobs held by different players and valued by others.
Also, keep in mind that whatever you pick as a profession will impact the choices of other players. If I am fourteen and I see my village has one senior smith and three regular smiths, I probably will not become a smith. But if I see we have only one baker and the pies are running low, I might pick that job for myself. When my younger brother is born, he will see the village has a senior baker and me, so he might decide to be a farmer instead of baking. If I decide to change my profession later on because I can't find a smith to make a new hoe so I can farm wheat ... and the senior baker dies of old age while I'm working the forge ... suddenly our village won't have any bakers. And because I changed jobs, it will be a long time before we have a senior baker, even if I switch back as soon as I notice the problem.
Now imagine the chaos that could be caused by a random murderer ...

The key difference between my suggestion and the current skill system would be that when you chose a profession, your choice is clearly VISIBLE to other players ("Tom Smith the Baker"), so it would be easier to find someone who has a particular skill set and you are rewarded for sticking with the same job for most of your adult life (not punished for using up your skill slots too quickly). And another important difference would be that you could still attempt skill-based tasks, even if you don't have the proper training. Instead of a binary outcome - success or nothing - you have an interesting choice. Is it better to do it yourself and risk failure or is it better to change your profession to improve your odds of a favorable outcome (but potentially sacrifice mastery of your chosen profession) or is it better to find someone else to help you accomplish this skill-based activity? You aren't boxed into a single path. You have options and when you decide to seek out a professional to help you, it is because it you have decided it is the best choice. Not because it is the only choice available. The game rewards you for sticking with a particular career path and it also helps you to find other players who have the skills you need to accomplish your personal goals. I'd also keep the number of professional skills fairly limited. There just aren't that many adult players in the average village, so you don't want to overburden the job tree with a lot of useless career paths. It doesn't make sense to have a professional horse tamer in your village, for example.

Dodge wrote:

Constantly going against the changes that are happening is really limiting the progression of the game...

Not all progress is forward. Right now, it feels like the game is moon-walking.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 10:20:56

@DestinyCall Your suggestion is way too complicated to implement and it doesn't solve the major issue, it still wouldn't be needed for survival to organize and communicate between players, it still would be less efficient to take time to interact instead of rushing everything by yourself.

DestinyCall wrote:

Anyone can help prepare ingredients and put together pies, but only a baker or master baker should bake the pies. Anyone can make charcoal and smelt iron, but only a smith should use the hammer.

It is the case currently, does it change anything?

No

(But it is a step in the right direction)

Toxolotl · 2019-11-05 10:28:31

Dodge, it seems like you would like this game to turn into something completely different than it already is. Instead of complaining about other people's opinions, changing the subject, and stirring up pointless arguments you could try respectfully swaying people to your point of view instead. Just a thought.

This is just a game built to be entertaining. If people have differing opinions that is good. Resistance makes us stronger. If changes effect the degree to which people find enjoyment out of the game it is important those things are addressed.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 10:33:00

Dodge wrote:

Toxolotl wrote:
...
Do you have any idea on how to make communication an essential part of the game?
To go from "HI BABY" "BYE BABY" to longer conversations needed in order for your family to survive?
I would be glad to hear about them...
Your idea of improving communication is "add more spoken letters pls" or "add a general chat like other MMO games"
It still doesn't take care of the root problem:
Communication is not needed.
Not interacting is still the best strategy currently so even if you add 10'000 ways to facilitate communication, it's still useless.
That is the real issue and without solving this everything else added is just fluff.

As I mentioned earlier, communication is already an important part of the game. Poor communication and bad coordination kills villages all the time.

The problem is NOT that communication isn't important. The problem is that communication between players is not supported or encouraged by the current game mechanics and game-play realities in OHOL. Communication is too hard and too clunky and too time-consuming. It is almost always faster and better to work on your own and hope other people figure out what they should be doing on their own, rather than stand around asking other people to do stuff and hoping that they will stop working long enough to listen to you. With so little time to build relationships, we are all strangers and we don't know who to trust or who has useful skills or who is a griefer waiting for an opportunity to sow chaos and discord. The only person you can really trust is yourself (and maybe your twin).

Making the game harder and more deadly doesn't make it easier to talk to each other. Reducing availability of water and oil doesn't give people more time to get to know their children and connect with them on a personal level. You know what helped with that? Desert margins.

Remember those? Before the temperature update, many towns were built along the border of deserts or in jungles where there were naturally perfect-temperature tiles. In these areas, hunger drain was significantly reduced, so the pressure to constantly work to generate food to survive was significantly lower when you were standing around in town on one of those desert margins. You could place your character on a border tile, fill up your hunger bar and go to take a bathroom break in real life ... come back in a few minutes ... and your guy would be perfectly fine. You could stand around, munching berries, and talk to your kids and your grand kids. Share stories, plan the layout of your town, talk about how to build a radio, whatever you needed to say. You had the time.

The current frantic pace of the game is in large part driven by the changes to the water progression. These game changes were implemented to to make the game more "hard-core" and difficult to survive. But the more time-pressure you put on people, the less likely we are to coordinate and talk. There just isn't TIME to do that kind of thing if we are all gong to starve to death in the next five minutes or run out of water completely in the next fifteen minutes.

Unless Jason is willing to loosen up and let us live a little slower, I don't expect to see much coordination or communication, no matter how few tool slots we have or how much we are punished for trying to survive on our own.

Coconut Fruit · 2019-11-05 10:52:58

Dodge wrote:

Your idea of improving communication is "add more spoken letters pls" or "add a general chat like other MMO games"
It still doesn't take care of the root problem:
Communication is not needed.

Communication is not needed in most games, yet it's the best part of MMO games to be able to communicate. MMO games don't get big without proper communication system.
It would work great in OHOL as well, I could bet $10000 for that. Easy money.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 10:53:19

Dodge wrote:

@DestinyCall Your suggestion is way too complicated to implement and it doesn't solve the major issue, it still wouldn't be needed for survival to organize and communicate between players, it still would be less efficient to take time to interact instead of rushing everything by yourself.

Any skill system will be complicated to implement properly, because OHOL is a complex game with a weird and convoluted crafting system. There's no way around that without completely re-engineering the way crafting works which would be even more complicated and time-consuming.

As far as whether or not it addresses the major issue .. that really depends on what you are considering the major issue that is being addressed by adding a skills system into OHOL. My suggestion allows you to pick a single profession that could become part of your character's identity - Tom the Baker would be the town's baker and everyone would know that he is holding that position. He has a place in the community and his role is communicated to other players without any need to speak. By claiming that professional title, he is declaring his love of pies to everyone who meets him for the rest of his time as a professional baker.

As a child born into a village filled with bakers, smiths, and farmers ... you will be able to walk around and SEE that your village has certain positions filled by other people and other positions that remain vacant (or will soon become vacant when the current senior members hit sixty years old). All of this information is being given to you by the game and communicated to you passively by other player's career choices. For your part, you will need to decide what job best suits you and will provide the most benefit to your village. As a mother, you might want to encourage your children to follow in your footsteps - you might be a family of wolf hunters or a family of farmers or a family of bakers. Or maybe, you decide to become a smith, because the current senior smith is getting old and you don't want the village to go without an experienced iron worker.

Some players might choose to ignore the benefits of specialization and change their profession to suit the moment, as is common in the typical village right now. But I think that many people would prefer to settle into a single profession so they can reach senior status. The benefits of mastering a profession would be significant. You would be respected and a valuable asset to your village. Best of all, the system would be much more natural and supportive. Encouraging cooperation, rather than punishing individuality.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 10:58:11

DestinyCall wrote:

The problem is NOT that communication isn't important. The problem is that communication between players is not supported or encouraged by the current game mechanics and game-play realities in OHOL.

Communication is literally pointless from a gameplay perspective currently, i can spend a whole life not talking to anyone and will be able to survive as much if not better than everyone else.

DestinyCall wrote:

Communication is too hard and too clunky and too time-consuming.

Communication is not hard what is hard is communicating with people running around and being busy with other stuff, the fact that it's time consuming is only relevant because it's useless, if it takes time but is essential then it doesn't matter that it's time consuming.

DestinyCall wrote:

It is almost always faster and better to work on your own and hope other people figure out what they should be doing on their own, rather than stand around asking other people to do stuff and hoping that they will stop working long enough to listen to you.

Yes exactly currently 99% of the time it's way better to do stuff on your own instead of bothering to talk to others, does this make for an interesting game?

Especially for a game that has so much potential in terms of relation building, socialization, cooperation etc.

If someone that you spend a good part of your life with dies you should at least feel something, but currently it's "oh lol he died" in the best case of course, since in most cases it just goes unnoticed... Another one bites the dust https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wz_DNrKVrQ8

DestinyCall wrote:

With so little time to build relationships, we are all strangers and we don't know who to trust or who has useful skills or who is a griefer waiting for an opportunity to sow chaos and discord. The only person you can really trust is yourself (and maybe your twin).

Depends what you mean by time, 60 minutes is way more than enough to build relationships IF you have the opportunity to do so, if you mean because of the fast and stressful pace of the game then yes.

DestinyCall wrote:

Making the game harder and more deadly doesn't make it easier to talk to each other.

Well it depends how it's done, if it's more deadly to be on your own but being together increases your chance of survival then it does make it easier to talk to each other.

DestinyCall wrote:

You know what helped with that? Desert margins.

Desert margins where an exploity way to reduce the pace of the game, yes you had more time to talk, but talk about what?

Talk about roleplay stuff? "I'm selling snowman penises, snowman penises for sale" hahahahahaha

DestinyCall wrote:

The current frantic pace of the game is in large part driven by the changes to the water progression. These game changes were implemented to to make the game more "hard-core" and difficult to survive. But the more time-pressure you put on people, the less likely we are to coordinate and talk. There just isn't TIME to do that kind of thing if we are all gong to starve to death in the next five minutes or run out of water completely in the next fifteen minutes.

You can have slower pace and less water at the same time, it literally depends on the food drain rate, a value that can be tweaked easily.

DestinyCall wrote:

Unless Jason is willing to loosen up and let us live a little slower, I don't expect to see much coordination or communication, no matter how few tool slots we have or how much we are punished for trying to survive on our own.

Yes 100% agree.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 11:07:47

And just to clarify, I wasn't suggesting that Jason roll back the temperature update. Living in deserts didn't make sense, but it did make for a much more comfortable (frequently naked) lifestyle.

My point is that we don't have any "safe zones" right now and we are constantly being pushed to work faster and work harder. Every minute counts, if you want to keep your village alive in the Rift. Recent updates have continued to up the pressure and increase resource scarcity, which makes living harder and learning more difficult.

I made another suggestion recently about fleshing out the lower tech tiers by adding stone/copper/bronze tools and relaxing the water pressure. I think that making that kind of change would potentially move things in the right direction by allowing people to slow down a little more and take the time to talk with their neighbors.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 11:20:50

DestinyCall wrote:

My point is that we don't have any "safe zones" right now and we are constantly being pushed to work faster and work harder.

Yes that safe place should be a shelter, a home, it gives a reason to regroup and not be scattered around, which makes communication possible.

Of course it would need changes to how temperature, food drain and houses work.

Because currently houses are not viable and going outside makes you lose all the heat pretty fast, and staying inside for 60 minutes is both not fun and unviable due to most activities being outside.

Ideally each family would have their house, you would communicate with them in order to make the right decisions and make your own family survive.

And eventually organize to whole community to make it work, trading networks and deals would be made between the different families, shops, restaurants etc would be all necessary in order to make a civilisation thrive.

DestinyCall · 2019-11-05 11:53:01

Yes, I would like to see buildings improved and made more functional. Currently, structures are built to define and organize spaces, but they aren't really necessary or important. A town can exist without any houses, which just feels weird to me. Shelter should be one of our core survival needs, like food and temperature. It would be nice if a house was a warm comfortable place where people could gather together to talk, eat, and work.

Increased storage tech (like a big shelf that could store 9 large items) would also make living in a small house more feasible, since you could free up floor space and do more work inside.

Starknight_One · 2019-11-05 12:52:35

Dodge wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
And the pacing of the game is not really improved by restricting tool usage. It is still just as important to work quickly and use your limited time efficiently. But now you must do it while also fighting against artificial tool limits.
OR change the pace of the game then...
Also "artificial" tool limits, can you really learn to be smith, sheppard, tailor, baker, engineer, farmer, builder etc in a single life IRL?

"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects." - Lazarus Long (as recorded by Robert Anson Heinlein)

Personally, of that list you put up... I've never smithed or watched sheep, but the knowledge of basic skills is there and I could learn the rest. I've sewed my own clothes; I bake and cook all the time. I'm a computer technician. I know how to garden and farm, basic carpentry, drywalling. Basic mechanics and plumbing. I've worked as an electrician. I'm sure there's other things. So yes... people IRL can learn all of those skills.

What's really artificial is being able to learn an infinite number of things in a single life, having one person that has 20 jobs is the real artificial thing.

People are surprising. And we can learn so much more than we've been told we're capable of... sit and really *think* about how many things you know how to do, and how many tools are involved in that. You'll probably be amazed.

Personally, my biggest 'headshake' moment is 'pencil' as a tool. Seriously? We're supposed to be modern people thrust into a world without man-made things. Literacy is so ingrained in culture today that *not* being able to use a pencil/pen is rarer than hen's teeth (stupid saying, technically every hen has an 'egg-tooth' - a pointed beak bit to break the shell from inside)... but suddenly it takes one of your limited tool slots to know how to use it?

This concept needs serious refinement. Personally, I'd have made it so everyone can use the tools as normal, but if you specialize in a tool, you get a benefit. For example, if you learn to be an axe master, you get two butt logs when chopping down trees, two firewood from chopping up a butt log, or two kindling from those recipes. Or use fug's suggestion, group skills into professions and allow 4 choices - either two skills at advanced, four at basic, or one advanced and two basic. That should allow people to have enough flexibility to be useful without feeling they have to spend half of their life looking for someone to learn the one tool they couldn't fit into their skill slots.

Last edited by Starknight_One (2019-11-05 13:03:38)

Dodge · 2019-11-05 13:17:06

Starknight_One wrote:

...

Yeah i guess you're right we are so stupid as humans with all our specializations, schools and jobs.

Physics is so easy i could make my own backyard nuclear reactor.

I know how to change a light bulb, that makes me an electrician right?

School is for suckers, 10 years to learn medicine? Heh what a bunch of losers, i played operation which means i'm qualified to be a surgeon.

I watched a cooking youtube video once, now i'm thinking about joining masterchef and maybe open my own restaurant.

Next time i break my TV i'll just repair it myself, or even better make my own.

I'm such a unique and special snowflake, i can do everything i want better than anyone.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 13:19:21

Starknight_One wrote:

Personally, my biggest 'headshake' moment is 'pencil' as a tool. Seriously?

Wait, you learned how to write without going to school? WOW

Starknight_One · 2019-11-05 13:32:09

Dodge wrote:

Starknight_One wrote:
Personally, my biggest 'headshake' moment is 'pencil' as a tool. Seriously?
Wait, you learned how to write without going to school? WOW

I could read and write before I went to pre-school. I was speaking in complete sentences by the time I was 18 months old.

You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 13:42:17

Starknight_One wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Starknight_One wrote:
Personally, my biggest 'headshake' moment is 'pencil' as a tool. Seriously?
Wait, you learned how to write without going to school? WOW
I could read and write before I went to pre-school. I was speaking in complete sentences by the time I was 18 months old.
You know nothing, Jon Snow.

Wow really good for you, i suppose you just grabbed a pencil and was able to write a full sentence right away, oh wait that's probably not how it went...

Because it takes time to learn something, to practice something until you get it right, hence tool limit makes you not be a living and breathing super human being.

Starknight_One wrote:

I could read and write before I went to pre-school. I was speaking in complete sentences by the time I was 18 months old.

That's some "special" ability most regular kids take much more time to learn these type of activities.

Starknight_One · 2019-11-05 13:52:03

Dodge wrote:

Yeah i guess you're right we are so stupid as humans with all our specializations, schools and jobs.

Sigh. You do realize there's more than one way to learn things, right? Schools don't work for some people, apprenticeships are needed. Some people thrive on self-study, others need to be guided.

Physics is so easy i could make my own backyard nuclear reactor.

WTF do you think Fermi et al did at the University of Chicago? They built a nuclear reactor out of graphite bricks and uranium.

I know how to change a light bulb, that makes me an electrician right?

Wow, you're right. I guess installing circuit breaker panels and rewiring whole houses and apartments with 220 VAC for major appliances, 110 for lights and outlets, and Ethernet and coax cable for data, phone and TV isn't a marketable skill-set, since anyone who can change a light-bulb can do *that*.

School is for suckers, 10 years to learn medicine? Heh what a bunch of losers, i played operation which means i'm qualified to be a surgeon.

Oh, gosh. You can play Operation? That takes... umm... a complete lack of disregard for your ability to think logically. Try again.

By the way, reductio ad absurdum is a logical fallacy. The reason I'm even bothering to answer you on this is because I want you to learn how to debate instead of trying to belittle your opponent's position.

I watched a cooking youtube video once, now i'm thinking about joining masterchef and maybe open my own restaurant.

It's good to dream. Good luck with your restaurant!

Next time i break my TV i'll just repair it myself, or even better make my own.

Cathode-ray tube? Flat-panel LED? OLED?

I've never done it, but with schematics I can certainly make a go at fixing them. Sorry you don't know how to do that.

I'm such a unique and special snowflake, i can do everything i want better than anyone.

"Wah, wah, I feel disadvantaged by not having the imagination and intelligence to do the things I want to do well. Or maybe it's just that my ability to conceive of and follow through with learning things is damaged because I already think I know everything it's possible or necessary to know."

If all we're going to do is throw insults, we're done here.

Dodge · 2019-11-05 14:03:35

Starknight_One wrote:

...

Are you really not getting my point?

Looking forward for your "Building TV from scratch" youtube video.

And dont forget buying any already made part is cheating!!!

But i'm sure someone as smart as you will easily be able to make transistors or wathever parts from ground sand and copper that you will mine yourself.

Starknight_One wrote:

It's good to dream. Good luck with your restaurant!

Ty I'm currently watching gordon ramsay going into peoples restaurant and calling their food trash, i'm planning on doing the same next time i go out to eat, if they dont give me the key to their restaurant i dont know what else to do.

Starknight_One · 2019-11-05 14:07:39

Dodge wrote:

Starknight_One wrote:
...
Are you really not getting my point?
Looking forward for your "Building TV from scratch" youtube video.
And dont forget buying any already made part is cheating!!!
But i'm sure someone as smart as you will easily be able to make transistors or wathever parts from ground sand and copper that you will mine yourself.
Starknight_One wrote:
It's good to dream. Good luck with your restaurant!
Ty I'm currently watching gordon ramsay going into peoples restaurant and calling their food trash, i'm planning on doing the same next time i go out to eat, if they dont give me the key to their restaurant i dont know what else to do.

K. As I thought, you're more interested in being illogical and mocking anything I might actually have to say. We shan't be speaking again.

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