Tarr

Morti · 2019-07-16 19:17:55

It doesn't feel right, talking in game when people are counting on us, even if it's just a simulation.
And it doesn't feel right talking about the game, as what it is outside of itself, while being inside.

Not to mention, the limit of characters, so, I want to open up a dialogue with you based on what was said in game.

I trust that was you, as Sophie

How do I start this? There are just so many levels of abstraction here, so many...

And to top things off, now Jason will be in on the conversation, at least, he'll see, if he doesn't respond.

But I want to speak to you as if this is a direct message, I want to reiterate the points I was trying to make.

1. This is a test. It's kind of a lame test, but, it's one Jason wants to give to people in general. It's also one we cheat on, just by communicating outside of it, about it. I don't know for a fact, how much Jason thinks he is outside of this test, or even if he is being subject to it himself. I mean, he most certainly is, and has been, just as we all are, no matter what we do in life, but this is more than likely a test he feels outside of and wants to issue to the people who play this game.

If we kill people, (sadly, without the consent of our governments) then we fail the test.
If this were real life, and someone tried to kill us, and we allowed it, well, in a way, that's failing the test too.
But, if we don't fight back in game, we don't necessarily fail the test. We are not limited to one life, or one chance, in the game, the way we are in reality.

This aspect of almost every game; multiple lives, is why I think some of the best lessons we could teach each other, that we as adults, can teach kids, or that all people could teach each other, this is why some of those lessons just can't be conveyed via this medium. No matter how much programmers, and game designers, like Jason wish they could. Only reality has the power to teach people that they only get one chance to leave their mark on the world; and that the time they have that chance, is finite. So very finite, in the grand scheme of things. But it's all we'll ever know, all we get the chance, to really know.

When we issue these sorts of tests to other people, we are bias as to what the correct answer should be, based on our own morals and values, that we have picked up over the course of our life. The swords and the fences are two separate questions on the same test. Do we, who have known this game before them, who have known every player as our family, allow ourselves to be divided, by walls and weapons? You know that anyone who was your child an hour ago, might be in another family 500 m away in another life. It's the same person. Why wall yourself off from them with a fence? Why ride up to them with the intent to draw a sword?

I know it's a little ironic me saying these things, after I stabbed you in game, but that wasn't just me stabbing you, I want us to stop testing each other like this, the way Jason feels he's being tested as a game designer; the way he feels the need to test us, as the players. We're not going to pass this test without getting past the swords and the fences. Unless, the correct answer to Jason is that we DO choose to use them, and that we do distinguish ourselves from each other, because to him, that's the right thing to do. If that is the case, then he has failed his test, and he wants us to fail with him. But I don't think that is the case, at least, not entirely.

2. You are doing his dirty work. I think this is more likely the case. I think Jason has probably opened up a line of dialogue with you, as he tried to do with me and he has persuaded you, or encouraged you, to play the way you are; to make the swords and the fences, and to help force these changes onto the rest of us. Whether or not this is the case, that either he is encouraging you, or, you are being persuaded, along with others, to bring this change to the game, it is still the case that Jason himself, as a player among players, would have next to no power to enact these changes without assistance and support of the more active players.

I worried about this, when he listed the people with the highest kill counts by email address, showing only a few characters of the details of their email, so that only the players might know who they were. He has never come out against people killing each other, he hasn't even indirectly discouraged it. This worries me, this suggests to me that he failed the test long ago, that his answer is ultimately incorrect, and that he, like the vast majority of game designers out there, is just out to make another murder simulator. Perhaps the parenting, and the displays of affection, they were just ruses to get good people into the game, people with no intention to ever kill other players, or to be murdered in a game, to get in here and be killed. As if that is something he thinks more housewives and little girls, should be experiencing.

If so, that is pretty fucking dirty, and I really hope that I am wrong about that.

What I think is more likely is that Jason, like so many other Americans, is drawing from his upbringing that we get here in America. That war is good, as long as you are the victor or benefactor. This is a lesson we have been subject to since elementary school. Every year, every history class, the documentaries on television, the movies that have come from Hollywood, and now the games. The United States, has more money invested in it's military than any other country per capita. That money comes from the tax payers as well as from the arms dealing industrialist who lobby the government to protect and allow for foreign investments. We put guns in the hands of children in Africa, we sell weapons to people on both sides of the Palestinian border, one decade we arm Iran, another decade we arm Iraq and, all the while we fund the Sunnis via the Saudi Royal family who owns ALL of the oil, in Saudi Arabia. There are almost no wars, no government sanctioned murders of foreigners, on this planet, that the United States is not supporting, either with weapons, money used for bribes and propaganda, or with the lives of our own citizens.

It is integral to that process that United States citizens be numbed en masse, before the reality of this sets in as they mature. That is the role of the educational system, of the news and of the entertainment industry. With Jason being born in a petroleum family, he may have just been set on a course from the start, to be bias towards this numbing, and not just of the citizens of the United States, but of the world. We echo the message, that murder for profit is okay, as long as you kill with our guns, just as the Romans did with their swords, just as the Mongols did with their bows.

--

Cars, Planes, Radios, and... Swords. Boy, haven't we messed up?

Excuse me for a moment, Tarr.

Jason, it's not too late, for you, the game, or us.

If you are doing this, to lure in kids who would have otherwise been playing other murder simulators, so that we can potentially turn them away from that sort of thing, well, I suppose I see your line of reasoning. This War of Mine is one of my favorite games of all time, for many reasons, you just had something good here. You had Don't Starve, Stardew Valley and the Sims, but in a cleaner, less convoluted package. Now what, you want to turn all the innocent people into Gandhis and Hitlers? Socrates' and Ghenghis Khans? You want to make this more like Rust, so, then what? You can hit us with the lessons of This War of Mine? Come on man, you had your market with the parenting; that woman on NPR, the kind men who are considering what it would be like to have children of their own, to feel the kinds of things their wife, mother, sister or girlfriend might have to go through if they want to raise a child. Heck, I think I've ran into about a dozen gay men over the last year and half who haven't said so, but they are probably playing this just because they are flirting with the idea of adoption, or are considering partners who have children from previous relationships.

By making this game more about murder and less about compassion, you are turning away more and more of those people who want, who need, to feel some kind of bond with other people, in only the way parents and children have the potential to bond. You lose all those middle-aged mothers who have become addicted to raising kids, but who's kids have all since grown up and left home. You lose those young women contemplating motherhood. You lose those boys and men, who could really benefit from this game, by experiencing just a hint, of what it might feel like to be a mom. You are throwing that empathic experience away for some cheap thrills for a tiny fraction of your audience who gets a kick out of it.

If you are doing this because you want to attract those young boys that just want the thrill of killing and avoiding being killed, so that the greater audience can try to reach them and pass on some sort of lesson, you're just going to wind up turning away more of those good people; the ones that are already playing, and the ones who might potentially play and benefit from this, only to look on Youtube and see murder after murder and just say... nah, not what I want.

You have a game that can attract an audience that NO OTHER game could attract right now, and you're going to throw, that, away.

I know you are so happy, with your wife and kids Jason, you are so satisfied with all the work you've done over the years and your status among a bunch of other low budget, low rent, game designers, but, just try and see that you still have an opportunity hear, to make a game about families, struggling together, to feed each other, to clothe one another and to shelter each other from, well, from nature itself. The elements of nature that your mom and dad didn't really know, but that billions of people around the world right now, do have to live with, malnutrition, starvation, even dehydration, but most certainly things like not having access to doctors and medicines in their times of need. I mean, you added yellow fever, which, I don't know if you did that as a play on the black people acting white yellow fever, or something more along the lines of malaria.

I know this is art to you and in art the artists has so many interpretations and messages they try to pack into their work. Heck, there is even a hint of Spike Lee's Jungle Fever mixed in with that update, as I seem to recall that was around the time you started toying with races as well.
That's all wonderful art Jason.
Really, but you can do better.
You can do more.
Stop trying to lure in those 'gamer bois' that want to floss and tea bag, and, make a wholesome game that more real moms might want to play with their daughters. Make a game for people who have and appreciate compassion, to come together and support each other.

I'm really sorry for being so harsh to you. I'm sorry for jumping on you with the mob, rather than trying to keep our conversations civil. I don't want you to be depressed Jason, or to think you've thrown away a much greater opportunity. That's not why I ever speak to you directly or indirectly. I just want something good for more people. Encourage what is left of your community to carry on and to be a beacon, a lighthouse to a safe harbor for like people out there that always want to experience this sort of game; to feel safer, among each other, rather than to feel threatened.

There are still so many aspects of life that you can include in here, so many things you can challenge us with, to work together to overcome. I have an idea what sort of challenges you are facing with this; keeping it simple and letting the stories and experiences write themselves, vs, too many meters and stats and recipes that people just get overwhelmed. I want to believe you I know some of the tough decisions you must have to make from week to week, as to what to include and what to avoid, but, really, only you truly knows exactly what it's like for you. And I do trust that you have good intentions, not just your good intentions, but our good intentions, at heart, when it comes to the overarching message of this game, and of all your work.

--

Tarr, I really appreciate you helping Jason and, in your way, being supportive of him, especially through things like github and through the way you are a conduit between the intricacies (and flaws) of the game, and, the community.

I don't know what goes on in Discord, I don't a lot about what even goes on on Github, but, I read what I read here and, more importantly, I experience the changes happening in the game, with the other players. I just want to tell you guys how I feel, when I feel strong enough about things to speak.

It's been so long now since you were Sophie, I forget everything we talked about and everything I wanted to say, but didn't want to flood that life and that town with.

What can I say?

I don't want to see the fences used, offensively or defensively, if they have any ultimate purpose, they should be as good as a simple, white picket fence. Not a warning, not a wall, just, a subtle demarcation between an area that someone wants to work in and the rest of the surrounding area. I don't want them to be like two meter tall chain link fences with barbed wire on the top and no trespassing signs, with chains and padlocks on the gates. I'd like to see them used more as simple farm fences, the kind of fence, THE fence was, when we could just remove the shaft and pass through, maybe even that we could step over, but that would discourage shorter animals, like the sheep from passing through.

As for the swords, well, I think it would be handy if we could turn them into scythes; Swords to Plowshares. Maybe an update where we can breed oxen, craft yokes and attach tools to them that could make working the soil a little easier. I'm sure they can be put to good use. I wouldn't doubt if Jason has thought of that long ago.

We just have to give these things time.

Yet another reason why I don't like reading too much of everyone's comments, saying do this, do that, add this, nerf that!

But what more can we do?

I mean, I love the guides and the plans. I especially love the mods and things like wondible's map that those of you who are more code savvy are doing. I really appreciate that stuff, as much as I appreciate the streamers and the video makers, sharing their experiences with the world. But most of all I love being in the game with the players. With everyone, especially all those people playing this game for the first time and the ones with so few hours. I envy them the most. I want them to stick around. I want all of them to get everything the game, and this community, all of it, has to offer.

I just want there to be more than enough good, to make up for the occasional bad, and I don't want people thinking each day is just a flip of a coin.

Nor do I want players like you, Tarr, thinking that you need to use 90 murders as a point, or feeling you need to fence in whole villages, just to teach someone, anyone, a lesson.

I want more people trusting, educating and encouraging each other.
That's the kind of experience I want new players to have and that's the kind of experience I want them passing on to other.

I'm sorry, I'm tired, forgive me, if I have shown any misjudgment, or misinterpreted, anything, any of you are doing.

I'm sorry.

(and forgive me for not proofreading, I'm not a big fan of erasing mistakes, but I agree, they can be interesting)

We certainly are.

arkajalka · 2019-07-16 19:49:55

Am i hearing right. That oldschoolers are going on fence/sword grieffs to prove a point to jason?

Am dissapointed...

anakin

Tarr · 2019-07-16 20:23:31

Yes, that was indeed me Morti. I only walked over to yourself because I genuinely believed your claim as I don't think I have ever seen someone else make the claim to be you.

1. While we certainly impact every single player we meet in game we certainly can't always make it a good impression no matter how hard we try. I will fight for whatever I think is right in this game regardless of whatever means I have to do so to get the desired result. Clearly, sometimes one must step on the toes of their own moral code but is it not better to do a little evil in the name of good? If I didn't go on that week long crusade to get the sword nerfed this sword problem we have right now would not only be worse but the game would likely be close to near unplayability.

Of course this came with a very heavy cost. I had copycats start doing exactly what I was doing seeking to get a bit of attention as I was the first and only player to be specifically mentioned within an update. People used my in game surname to destroy anything and everything that got in their way and unlike myself just seeking to get a problem I saw fixed but to ruin the experience of other players over and over again without any sort of mercy. This crusade has also brought us to the issue we are seeing right now which I wouldn't have imagined happening. Any sort of killing or fighting in this game has been reduced to a complete garbage fire.

This is a direct result of me failing to think any further than just getting what I thought would be a quick fix to make the game a better place for everyone. Combat being as it is now is just a joke and not something I can get fixed without specifically asking or convincing Jason otherwise. My goal to use destruction to protect all the players who couldn't deal with the threat of swords really backfired on myself in this situation as now I can't even defend them, nor can I barely defend myself in these sort of situations now. So to reflect back on the previous thought, was doing evil in an attempt for good worth doing? It wasn't. I changed a function of the game that I was good enough in to protect the newer players into a system where anyone can do massive amounts of damage.

I got something changed where skill stopped mattering. While maybe only a small fraction of the community could have really inflicted the amount of damage I could with a sword now almost anyone and everyone can do these sorts of things. I forced Jason to make a change that absolutely fucked the sort of people I was working to protect from the update. These swords aren't war swords at all, they're just simple tools of genocide made for those with the worst intentions to prey on players who just want to create, on those who just want to connect with their families, and those who just want to live peacefully. I take full responsibility for forcing a change without thinking Jason would create such a terrible solution.

2. I would never EVER be convinced by Jason to try to force such a change on this game like getting players to use fences. I am classically one of Jason's hardest critics with being one of the only players in the highest play time reviews to have a negative review most of the time. I am just trying to get Jason to change the game the only way I personally know how at this point and that's by breaking things as much as I can where he is forced to take action against whatever I can come up with. I don't want to see fences just as much as you Morti, and I certainly don't want this game to be a bunch of fenced in hell holes where people are just trapped waiting for death to free them of their cells.

My high kill count comes from my overzealous nature in the game which has a certain ebb and flow to how I deal with things. I won't lie here as I've clearly killed people for terrible reasons just like anyone else with someone being wasteful with food being a clear memory of one of my many mistakes. I hate to admit it but I absolutely looked up to pein and his no nonsense attitude when dealing with people but I have never wanted to go as far as he goes. Pein is why I even learned how to deal with my problems in game instead of just asking for Jason to fix all of my little problems and without his influence I wouldn't have learned to properly pvp in the first place.

But of course to be pein lite is not something others should want to be as no matter how hard of a worker he is as being such a loose cannon is just as dangerous as having a griefer running around threatening to shoot people. I vowed to myself I would protect those who could not protect themselves, to remove people who were assholes just for the sake of being assholes, and folks who would only ever make this game worse for all those who just wanted to have a little fun playing the game I have mostly enjoyed from the first day I seen this.

While war in game is something that occurred on the rare occasion before the war sword it's not something I want in a FAMILY AND CIVILIZATION BUILDING game. While I can understand that not everything can peachy 24/7 within the game whenever something comes up there should be both a peaceful and violent solution to whatever thing does arise. Unfortunately, in the current game there is no peaceful way to resolve some sort of problem, and even worse violence is the only option given to a player. You seen this first hand when we put our swords down and tried to reforge them in that little town, there were no swords to plowshares. We disarmed ourselves in protest of the swords but in that we only armed more of the players who would want to destroy.

Fences and swords do not belong in the game and with the current systems in place never will. All these updates did was sunder and change the community dynamic where people think this game has always been some terrible pvp game with an undertone of parenting and building. I put those fences up to try to protect those people in that town, and I tried to put them up to trap them. Neither of these things will fix this game, and it's clear it will always be better to just pray that raiders don't find the little piece of heaven carved out of the ground the Eve settles on.

3. I really don't want to be in another situation where I actively have to cause as much problems to other players to get points across to Jason on whether or not something is completely broken. I directly warned Jason two weeks before the latest snowball incident that these things had a bug in them that actively made them lethal again and he didn't even respond to me. Hell, I even made a little video to prove that the snowballs were killing a baby though I could have thought it out a little better but I was just rushing to prove a point that these things were able to kill another player. Once someone else showed the direct way to deal with the problem I expected Jason to fix it.

But he didn't. I had to go back to the discord (at a time where I was actively on break from the game) and leak to the players within the community how to abuse the bug to get it fixed. This is where the underlying issue comes from Morti. I can tell Jason X is broken but sometimes he doesn't see the need to fix it. He should not and cannot leave bugs of that caliber on the table for anyone and everyone to abuse as slowly more and more people would find the bug and only a select few would kill everyone. I believe in ripping the bandage off when it comes to these sorts of things instead of trying to just let a small flow of bug abusers keep all the power to themselves.

Some of my fondest memories of this game are those where I taught another player to do something that was just every day fair to myself. The student who learned the art of setting up an oil rig, the boy who no one would teach learning to make all sorts of different level foods, or even just the many children I've taught to to keep the town stable through composting and animal tending. These are the things this game should be about, teaching, caring, loving but that's not where we are right now. We've made a complete 180 and look how awful this game is right now.

Players can't even play without fear of some idiot with a sword wiping out all their children and the work of their great grandparents. You can't fight back in this game, and you can't ensure your children can enjoy the sort of peace we have throughout the many MANY months we've played this game. There isn't ever going to be another OHOL created, I'm sure of that at this point so I want to make this the best possible experience for future players. I want them to get to love the game we did Morti, I want them to feel how we did when we gout our first spark of connection with our children, our parents, and even our grandparents.

We won't ever fully see eye to eye on every little detail but we can definitely agree on most. This is both a game we dearly love and I always enjoy getting to meet you whenever I stumble upon you in this game. There's only ever going to be one of you and there will only be one of me but lets continue to change this game in the best ways we can Morti. Lets let others enjoy the game we fell for, and let us continue to stumble forward with Jason and pick ourselves back up whenever we fall. Maybe with a little elbow grease we can change the world just a little bit at a time.

ollj · 2019-07-16 21:52:01

oooh tarr reveals his player id ingame just like me. this leads to fun pseudo-twinnings.
oooh tarr signs his last words just like me. thats just nice. this usually gets people angry.
thats all neat.

i have yet to whitness an identity theft ingame (besides copying a family name for whatever reason)

notes that just say "i am NAME on youtube subscribe" are commonly excluded from libraries and hidden in the deepest swamps.

on point-proving and excessive warswording, yeah its just a game.
except today i significantly increased the population of killian bell-town (even if only temporarily over and over), by constantly going there, buiulding roads there or bringing turkeys there.

Last edited by ollj (2019-07-16 21:56:36)

Tarr · 2019-07-16 22:06:27

ollj wrote:

oooh tarr reveals his player id ingame just like me. this leads to fun pseudo-twinnings.
oooh tarr signs his last words just like me. thats just nice. this usually gets people angry.
thats all neat.
i have yet to whitness an identity theft ingame (besides copying a family name for whatever reason)
notes that just say "i am NAME on youtube subscribe" are commonly excluded from libraries and hidden in the deepest swamps.
on point-proving and excessive warswording, yeah its just a game.
except today i significantly increased the population of killian bell-town (even if only temporarily over and over), by constantly going there, buiulding roads there or bringing turkeys there.

I tell people whenever people ask or make a comment about what I'm doing. I do this because if anyone claims to be me in game can quickly be disproved by pinging me in discord to ask if X is me or by checking the death log and comparing my email hashes to anyone else's. Most people know my main surname since it's my name on discord/forums and I keep a few others undisclosed for whenever people start specifically targeting the lineage due to trying to make some goofy attack on me.

I've both had people such as Datruf pretend to be me and others either in an attempt to make me look bad, gain trust of others who know who I am, or just do it because they can. It's not that big of a deal since I can prove when or when someone isn't myself since discord + the life logs showing a different email hash when it isn't either of my accounts.

I don't normally sign off my lives with a message of me being who I am but I knew Morti would look back at the message at some point.

In regard to the whole swording thing that was a lot of players (and repeat players) that basically had zero chance and all their work destroyed in a matter of minutes. If you didn't understand how to pvp at the time you stood 0 chance against someone using hit and run with a sword, basically the same thing we see today where pvp is 100% one sided.

PXshadow · 2019-07-16 22:31:01

Tarr wrote:

2. I would never EVER be convinced by Jason to try to force such a change on this game like getting players to use fences. I am classically one of Jason's hardest critics with being one of the only players in the highest play time reviews to have a negative review most of the time. I am just trying to get Jason to change the game the only way I personally know how at this point and that's by breaking things as much as I can where he is forced to take action against whatever I can come up with. I don't want to see fences just as much as you Morti

I personally think the issue with the game's PVP is that it's in a limbo state, with a poor compromise between a peaceful primitive society. And societies with roughly designed technologies such as the war sword and fences. The best thing to do now would be to push for change, as either direction is currently better than the middle. Either Jason reverts back on the war sword, or he improves it even more there by the demand for solid defenses becomes even more needed.

Tarr wrote:

and I certainly don't want this game to be a bunch of fenced in hell holes where people are just trapped waiting for death to free them of their cells.

I think there's ways to make defenses more beneficial and alleviate that worry, looking historically at castles would be a good change of pace for defense at least early on (build a moat have a draw bridge, storing surplus food). Let me know what you think.

ollj · 2019-07-16 23:17:30

instant killing is the main issue i think.

arkajalka · 2019-07-16 23:31:55

Yes create armor to sustain hits. Oneshotting sucks bigtime. 0 skill all about who draws first and if you are peaceful by nature you'll be the one to eat the hit.

Imo somekinda karma system could be real nice. That way we would have peaceloving towns that prosper on technology and marvelous buildings. On the otherhand you would have these raggedy ass warmongering towns that are all about forging every iron ingot into swords and conquering the prospering town from the peaceful folk.

This way swords and fences would actually work. As in peaceloving town you would know that you dont get siblings that are murderous in their intentions and use every piece of technology to kill. You could maybe even do the fences proper as people who are pro peace prolly know how to build stuff and how to take advantage of thing. The ownership would transfer and the swords that are made are solely for defence.

Tarr · 2019-07-17 00:44:12

arkajalka wrote:

Yes create armor to sustain hits. Oneshotting sucks bigtime. 0 skill all about who draws first and if you are peaceful by nature you'll be the one to eat the hit.
Imo somekinda karma system could be real nice. That way we would have peaceloving towns that prosper on technology and marvelous buildings. On the otherhand you would have these raggedy ass warmongering towns that are all about forging every iron ingot into swords and conquering the prospering town from the peaceful folk.
This way swords and fences would actually work. As in peaceloving town you would know that you dont get siblings that are murderous in their intentions and use every piece of technology to kill. You could maybe even do the fences proper as people who are pro peace prolly know how to build stuff and how to take advantage of thing. The ownership would transfer and the swords that are made are solely for defence.

PVP is just plagued with a whole lot of issues at the moment.

REMOVING THE SKILL OF ENTRY

Previously before the new system there was an actual level of skill required to duel in this game. People had to make sure to click very specific tiles or the player in question AND you had to keep doing this as if they moved out of the tile this would cause a person to drop their weapon thus leaving them disarmed. This dancing as it was called meant that both players either had decision trees that had to go down whenever attempting to attack the other player as bad moves ultimately left you getting stabbed in the gut or shot. You can see this specifically play out in the video where I was showing off the issue of swords to Jason where I lead a woman around a tree to get her into a choke point to make sure my snowball isn't going to miss. She ultimately decides to stay 100% on the offensive and charges without thinking and is punished for walking into a tile I know I can hit with a snowball. This leads to her getting stabbed and the town massacre resuming.

So what happens when there isn't depth to combat? Basically what we have now. Anyone and everyone can kill a person without any sort of fear of losing as long as they shift click first. Melee weapons have 9 different tiles you can attack a person from and bows have about 16 or so IIRC. Where as in the before system you might have had two different correct choices to click on with so many options it completely removes sort of skill as Jason wanted. However, this means the bar to entry is much MUCH lower and thus anyone can grief now, and anyone can grief successfully. Before hand, if you tried that sort of thing on someone like myself you ended up dead 99% of the time due to being lured into a bad spot or just being hit in the dancing phase of combat. There's no such thing as of now and the game is unilaterally 100%/0% win rate for fights depending on who clicked first. Removing the skill from combat made it much easier to attack and removed all the defense from pvp.

EVEN STEVENS

What if in the situation of two players having the kill command queued instead of one always winning it would instead result in a draw? This means both players would end up with a knife wound if wielding the same weapon (knife v knife, sword v sword) or arrow wound if both holding a loaded bow. In the case of knife v sword just give the kill to the sword since it's the weapon actually made for killing in the first place. This would mean whenever trying to attack someone who is ready for you you'll essentially one for one yourself instead of knowing you would have won or lost with 100% certainty. In the case of multiple family conflict it should be crystal clear who you should be healing, and with inter-family conflict it becomes a game of convincing the medic who to save which adds DRAMA like Jason can't live without.

A RPS (rock paper scissors) approach would be much clearer on who is supposed to win a duel instead of the current system where you wouldn't even understand how fighting works without someone explaining it to you. Allowing someone to stab you while their injured seems a bit too far in my opinion but would likely be a better option than the meme that is our current combat system. Basically the idea would be if someone attacks you, you can attack them back as long as you are armed (injury wouldn't drop items anymore) which may or may not be a good idea as well.

THE ONLY DEFENSE IS OFFENCE

With the removal of snowballs as the great equalizer there is no counter in combat besides just running away from someone. When a disarm was available in game you were both able to disarm people and deal with them nonviolently or it allowed you to turn the tables on the player attempting to kill you in the first place. With the current pvp system the only way to win against someone is to be the first person to growl OR have a ranged weapon vs melee. You cannot ever win if they growl first when both players are using the same type of weapon no matter what you do to try to prevent it. This means PVP ends up boiling down to a game of running around in circles waiting for one of the players to need to eat as otherwise the kill command will not drop (or if they decided to drop the weapon for whatever reason).

This is clearly worse than the previous combat system where players were making decisions on how and what to do while on the fly. Fences are just not viable. You heard it before, and I'm here to tell you it again. Something so annoying to deal with while also being so easy to grief is never going to be something players use to defend themselves from attacks. The only time we seen fenced cities going up was during the highest spike of Eve related genocide where a random Eve could single handedly wipe out an entire village by herself, and could even respawn back to the same town she just attacked. Fences have to be made actually usable for players to want to build them as they're not idiots who will do things just because it's what they should. Theory vs reality are two very different things and players should be expected to do the opposite of what they're supposed to when given the tools.

WORKING CURSE SYSTEM

Do you know what happens when there's no responsibility for what you do? Take one look at how bad the griefing situation has gotten in the last two months after the curse system got completely wrecked. While it has obviously never been a perfect system it was a deterrent for players to act like little scumbags ruining the fun of others. I sort of wish we would have told Jason to remove the curse system when we had the chance just for the sole purpose of showing why it is important to hold players accountable when they just want to grief or act like an asshat in general. What is the point of having a system in place that you can't use? I almost always have my curse token when I play because I can never use it due to the limitations put on them and that's not even because I can't curse outside my lineage. The time limit is much too small like I told Jason before. One minute was absolutely fucking ludicrous (his original idea) and five minutes is almost as useless.

Why is a time limit bad? Because name variation is wildly different depending on who is naming a child and what name the Eve picked. Mo Oo requires 11 characters, while some names require nearly 40 characters to be able to type which is just absurd. What is the point of having such a wildly varying system? Oh right. Because rough edges are more interesting than working systems. I really don't see it being unreasonable to ask the curse system just be a command you use at age ten+ OR allow cursing to occur up to an hour after a players death. This would allow players the ability to actually use their tokens while people who really deserve their trip to donkey town get the plane ticket.

ONE HIT IS BAD

This is something that clearly caries over from when death was instant in this game and depending on the situation might just be something that should go. What if knife wounds weren't always deadly along with wolf bites/hog cuts? What if instead it would reduce your permanent pips by some number (lets just say 10 for example). If you happen to be suffering from a wound that would reduce your total pips <10 this would become a lethal would like we have in the current game. It would basically be the same mechanic as how mosquitoes remove pips and until you were healed up you wouldn't get the food bars back (which return empty). If for example though you would get a second wound in this state it would reduce your maximum pips to zero which if you didn't have bonus food you would outright starve to death.

Of course this brings up the idea that yumming would work as a shield which seems really weird in my opinion. Maybe zero pips kills outright or potentially all your bonus food is removed upon first stabbing to counter a true yum shield. In the case of something like arrow wounds, sword wounds, snakebites, or bear bites the wound system would stay as is. This of course is debatable of course but this is just a base idea on which others can add or subtract from at their digression.

Anyways, PVP is and has been fucked for a while and the growing state of people raiding and stuff is only showing this more and more. The game either needs to have PVP brought to the forefront as something Jason plans to go forward with or it needs to be slightly muted but balanced around as to not take away from the main ideas of the game.

Léonard · 2019-07-17 09:24:54

Morti wrote:

I'm really sorry for being so harsh to you. I'm sorry for jumping on you with the mob, rather than trying to keep our conversations civil.
[...]
Nor do I want players like you, Tarr, thinking that you need to use 90 murders as a point, or feeling you need to fence in whole villages, just to teach someone, anyone, a lesson.

It's only Jason's fault and nobody else's really.
He has shown time and time again that discussion of any kind is utterly useless with him.
The only thing that has worked is, you guessed it, killing 90 people.

Tarr wrote:

If I didn't go on that week long crusade to get the sword nerfed this sword problem we have right now would not only be worse but the game would likely be close to near unplayability.

To be honest I'm starting to think that you shouldn't have done that.
You've had Jason's back for how long now? Does he deserve it?
I don't know for you, but to me the answer is a VERY CLEAR no.

Maybe you should have let Jason continue on his path, perhaps he would never have nerfed the war swords and continued to press on with them, eventually driving the majority of players away and THEN maybe, just maybe he would have finally learned his lesson.

Morti · 2019-07-17 16:36:04

Léonard wrote:

It's only Jason's fault and nobody else's really.
He has shown time and time again that discussion of any kind is utterly useless with him.
The only thing that has worked is, you guessed it, killing 90 people.

I don't think like that, because I know it's not the case.
He is not the one making the swords and the fences in game, we are.
We are because we are worried others are as well.
Because we made them in fear one life, and that fear carries over to the next because we know that having made them once, that they are out there, and can be used on our new family.

This is the trap of war.
It is the trap of invention, for machines capable of killing in the name of defense.
It's the trap of everything, everything we do that we don't want others to do to us, from lies, to slavery, to murder.
Once people see a benefit to exploitation or deception, a chain of events is always sure to loop back around on them, to haunt their children, using the same mechanisms, in the end.
Just as the conquest of Jerusalem, by Rome, let to their fall after Constantine was persuaded to become Christian.
Just as the United States, is suffering to deal with the crimes, and the lifestyles, of the descendants of people who were once enslaved.
And just, as there is no great Mongol Empire, after the people who were invaded, changed their tacts, to deal with future invasions by similar armies.

But here we are, in relative times of peace, for some, with a sort of, global protection, provided by the US military.
It seems a peaceful and prosperous time for some, especially those of us enjoying the internet and, automobiles, with all of our gas stations, conveniences and luxuries. We see the people on TV, all dressed nicely, reporting the news, discussing politics and, we know, all those people in movies and television shows, really live nice lives, no matter what conditions are portrayed in the scripts and on sets. And all of it, all these games and movies, they act as distractions, more than they shed light on any of the problems portrayed; and of the real struggles people are facing.

The games and movies we make, portraying the hardships of war, starvation, poverty and disease, act to draw people, towards more games and movies, more than it leads them to get out and solve problems.

Jason might say that "At least people playing games aren't causing problems. People making games, aren't causing real problems." Well, when the good that our cultures are experiencing depends on people engaging with each other, when people who play video games, don't even know their neighbors, the way our parents knew the neighborhood, when the games are keeping people from forming bonds with those around them, in the real world, they are contributing to problems, by taking away from that time we have to bond, to socialize, and just to get to know one another.

So many of us who have grown up on games, we are so poor, at communicating with others face-to-face. We couldn't get 10 of our neighbors to come together for dinner, let alone organize our communities in a time of need, or just, to make our neighborhoods places we are happier living.

What, what does this even have to do with One Hour One Life?

I guess this is just a chance for some of us to start over, in some way.

That's certainly what draws me to it. But unlike other video games, OHOL, makes me see my neighbors as my family, no matter who they are. At least, it did. It still does, but it did more, before we were turning on each other in these ways.

A lot more than this game has made me who I am. Some might say I've always been smart, kind and concerned. Others might say I'm weak, pathetic or an asshole. Certainly that I'm lazy. Certainly that I've never done enough.

But this game gave me a chance to work hard, to care and to prioritize the welfare of those around me, over my own life.
Staying alive just became part of a routine needed to do what I really wanted to do; to provide for my family.

That is the best, the absolute best thing about this game.

I don't want the sword ruining that.

I don't want to look out my window and see my neighbor, the way I look at another player and wonder, is this the player that killed my whole family an hour ago? I know, that it was a good mindset to be in, to look at my neighbors as I would look at my family in game.

The person bringing in the rabbits.
The person working at the smithy.
The person making the pies.
The person feeding the sheep.
The person teaching the new player how to make compost.
The new player, asking, what can I do to help?

I know all of those people, are good.
Not as characters, but as human beings.
They are good, not just for me, or my family, they are good for everyone, for every family.

All of you are lifting the bar of humanity, all of you, are helping me to look out the window and want to help, everyone I see.
And if I'm feeling that, by playing this with you, then certainly some of you, are feeling it too.

I want more of that.
I want more of it for all of you.
I especially want it, for those kids, those kids who would otherwise be playing Fortnite, Counterstrike, Rust or Call of Duty. But we need to be strong enough to accept those players, without becoming them.

I don't want to lose any of you, over an item.

--

The Yew Bow, was added in Version 20, May 17th, 2017.

The Knife, was added in Version 52, February 8th, 2018.

How many people have we lost, because of the events that played out because of those items?
We made those items.
We did it, because we felt they were necessary.
We knew we needed them, to get something more, out of the game.
We misused them, on each other.
We've turned away, so many good people.
I've turned away my share, and I'm sorry.

I don't want you to be anymore sorry for what you've done.
I don't want a mother, looking at her child, suspecting them of being the one that murdered them in their last life.
I don't want children, wondering if their mom, was one of the people they killed, in a previous life.

I want you to understand that part of the game, that part that makes people care less, about their families, to care less, about their towns.

I want you to understand, that that, is what is destroying this community.

We can blame Jason for introducing these pieces, to our game, but we should not, let them, or him, become excuses for caring, any less for our children, or family, or any other player in the game, that we can share our lives with, in any way.

We must never allow fear, of what someone else may do, change what we value most; about ourselves, the other players, or about anyone on Earth. We make this game what is, just as we make life what it is.

--

Oh, and I don't want armor in this game, that should go without saying.
Maybe just some leather clothing to help reduce the chance that a wild animal encounter will be fatal...but, wait. No.
Nope, nope, nope.
Jason is already sadistic enough as it is.
Nope, he doesn't need those kinds of ideas.
Nor do we need those kinds of ideas.

"Oh, but if Jason hadn't added the warsword , you wouldn't have said such nice things."
Fuck off.
You can just fuck right off with that attitude.
That's the kind of mindset Jason is suffering from.
The kind of bullshit, Star Wars, attitude that thinks because the Sith are weak and the Jedis are strong, that there need to be more Sith to bring about some kind of naive mindset of balance.
FUCK. THAT.
If people thought that 10,000 years ago, we'd never had left that time in human history.
And if people start thinking that now, we'll never make it another 10,000 years.
Always, get better.
Always, raise the bar.
The past is a primitive time of dumb fucks and dumb fuckery.
And the future will always be better, overall,

but only if we make it better, today.

Always love your family.
Realize everyone, is your family.
And never put up a 'guard' to ever let down.
You don't need it. You never will.
Do better for everyone, every life, and everything will be the best, it could possibly be, at the end of each.
The community will all be wiser, the players will all be stronger, and each day, our towns will become more impressive than the day before.
Become the machine of transformation, that is the life of the world.
Stars, gave their life for you.
Strive, for no less.

arkajalka · 2019-07-17 17:46:27

After a speech like that i must say: "All your bases belong to us -xxpussyslayerxx"

mmmurdered

ollj · 2019-07-17 18:52:52

i like the armoring concept. bamboo,leather, chainmall, plates.

one hour, one knife!

Last edited by ollj (2019-07-18 00:06:43)

Morti · 2019-07-17 19:28:09

Tarr wrote:

You seen this first hand when we put our swords down and tried to reforge them in that little town, there were no swords to plowshares. We disarmed ourselves in protest of the swords but in that we only armed more of the players who would want to destroy.

For now, this is the best thing we have to undo the damage.
But, of course, it's much easier to make the sword than it is for people to unmake it.

Because of you, pein, and every other smith that throws a fit whenever someone else is trying to work at the smithy, this is as far as I've made it towards learning to use the Newcomen machines.

I've been working to counter that attitude that pein and others have been infectiously spreading through the game; the hate and disconnect, the lack of consideration for the education, of other players. It's one thing for us to focus on being productive in one area of the game, so that others may be productive elsewhere, but it's another when we deny players the opportunity to go through the motions themselves by insulting them, even stabbing them, for 'getting in our way when we are trying to work' and making everyone afraid to explore anything more than keeping berries alive.

I'm sorry, but education of the playerbase should be our main concern, every life.

Some people have not been taught that. Some, struggle to understand it, due to other experiences in their lives. I know even I myself, don't fully understand it, as I have failed to hold onto my teaching positions, many times in my actual life. I have sacrificed many jobs, and many opportunities to carry on teaching, because I have felt that one message, was greater than everything else. Those were mistakes. Real life mistakes that have cost me my livelihood, my health and ultimately, the financial stability to feel confident enough to form a relationship with someone else that may have lead to a family of my own.

It hurts to see others make similar mistakes, but I don't want to fight and quarrel with people over living the way they think they should be living. Though I still do.

Obviously, I still do.

It has always been clear to me why people like pein have wanted to be in charge, of the jobs where the tools which could potentially be used as weapons, were required. They are insecure, mentally, and having those weapons handy, havig the option to kill those who challenge you, a click away, brings them a peace of mind that words; that their family, teachers and community, have failed to give them.

It is not our fault though. Nor is it the fault of the community. This is just, us, human beings, crawling out of the water, drying ourselves on the shore and finding our wings, to greater things. This, really is life. And we are not to blame for our own habits and idiosyncrasies. What we can be blamed for, however, is having known how to prevent these things from happening, yet failing to do so. By not choosing to do a good thing, the moment the choice is presented to us, we set the future on a course, where that, one thing, that, act of kindness and consideration, never took place.

When we close our windows, because our neighbor has left his dog out in the cold, and it's whimpers, are eroding our conscience.
When we carry on driving down the road, after seeing someone has been in an accident.
When we pretend to ignore a mother and a crying child, the way the mother, is pretending to ignore the child.

The world becomes, a little worse of a place, to be alive.

I could probably not even count, the number of times I have recognized pein in game, by his actions.
They have always been around weapons.
Near, every life, whether it has been the bow, the knife or the sword.
And I don't blame people for wanting to be like that as well.
Just as I don't blame the founding fathers of America, for their lack the foresight, when it comes to the problem of the second amendment to the constitution, the owning of slaves, and the problems that plague so many cities, across the country, in the present. The problem of the descendants of those slaves, using guns, on one another, as misunderstandings arise.

But what can we do, about it now? That is what is important. Not what our ancestors did in the past, but what we do, now.

Me, I will carry on teaching. I will draw light into dark corners of the past, as I carry on, urging people to, to seek light elsewhere.

I don't deny humanity has made mistakes. I accept that what distinguishes us from the other life on Earth, is that we can address them. We can deal with them, and we can solve them. And in so doing, we can take on greater challenges. Challenges cowards like Jason, are afraid to accept.

jasonrohrer wrote:

...in general, I'm not trying to help or save the world.

Dec 17, 2018, 5:47 PM, after I asked him what he would have done if he would have been in Elon Musk's position as a programmer, after Paypal was sold and he walked away from that, with $160 million dollars.

Part of me thinks Jason doesn't want to be more successful. Part of me thinks, he wants to go on to keep saying how many games he's made that few, have ever heard of. Boy, what a bragging right. I made 20 games. I made 30 games. I made 40 games. Maybe someday, he'd have been able to say he made 100 games. What an accomplishment. What an ego booster.

To someone who thinks a game, is important.

And I think they are.

But not as important, as the future of space exploration.
Certainly not as important, as the people who make and play them.
Not as important as you, dear reader.
No game, is more important than you.
You, fleshy meat sack.
You blob of guts and bones, with a brain.
You skin donut, with a hole from your mouth to your ass, and blood filling.
You big eyeballed juggernaut of a hundred million year old mutant mouse genes.

You reproduction, of reproduction.

Let us go into the future, together.
Let us celebrate, this fucking amazing thing, that is life.
Together.

Hold me, mommy.

Good luck, son.

arkajalka · 2019-07-17 20:25:32

Imo its totally different thing to kill people out of their ignorance. Getting at way of things when you are actually providing more than all the rest of the village people together for the community and someone tryes to hinger your level of produce. Theres a lesson to be learned and people learn best (or atleast remember bit better) when it hurts. You simply dont go f around with you berry bucket moving things around when someone is in middle of making something complex that will serve many generations.

Killing just for the sake of killing is totally different. It serves no goal. Theres no lesson to be learned...

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-17 22:24:59

307 murders on Sunday out of 6014 deaths.

95% of deaths on Sunday were peaceful.

805 people lived to 60 on Sunday. That's 2.6x the number of people who were murdered.

If you are claiming constant murder in this game, you're either exaggerating for rhetorical purposes (my suspicion) or very unlucky.

You don't like the sword. I get it.

But calling this game a "murder simulator" is ridiculous.

arkajalka · 2019-07-17 23:26:25

The thing is, you have to work constantly towards dissarming towns to avoid killing sprees. Every knife has to be backbagged or turned in to shears, there cant be arrows laying around in the town(makes bear grieffing much easier), even better if you slay every nearby duck from the ponds, you cant leave pipes laying around(yet you need em for most important tech the oil/pump) or they turn into swords, people may even waste villages only ingots to swords rather than making a watersource, you have to pep talk people to not make em go rampage. Its a constant effort to dissarm villages. Spam some /love and distract them with some other nonsense. This all takes time for actual creating new kinda townsystems and enjoying the best part of this game.

Worst thing is that you cant actually trust anyone, evnethough majority of players are goodhearted few rotten tomatoes can do serious devastation and there is noway of thelling that. Usually the swords are created in means of selfdeffence, but eventually end up into wrong hands and turn against you or some other poor soul. Also these murders hit in clusters. There maybe few generations of peace but then it all get wiped with few swords.

Making swords is too easy. Maybe if the recipe would be harder(add all that hilt armguard building, sharpening hardening etc) then there would be less swords and the swords that are made would have more value and would be taken care of and transfered to "capable" hands. That being said tho the capable hands can actually murder whole towns unlike noobies. Usually they dont even know how to shift and drop them weapons on your feet making their attention very clear.

Seriously tho, this one item has so huge impact on whole gameplay that almost everything else has to be done that in mind and you can create it by hitting a hot pipe...

edit: btw is "/die" a natural death, if so it tweaks the stats really hard...

Last edited by arkajalka (2019-07-17 23:32:54)

Tarr · 2019-07-18 00:05:10

jasonrohrer wrote:

307 murders on Sunday out of 6014 deaths.
95% of deaths on Sunday were peaceful.
805 people lived to 60 on Sunday. That's 2.6x the number of people who were murdered.
If you are claiming constant murder in this game, you're either exaggerating for rhetorical purposes (my suspicion) or very unlucky.
You don't like the sword. I get it.
But calling this game a "murder simulator" is ridiculous.

Should you really be including SIDS deaths in your stats though? People using /die make up nearly as big of as big of a chunk of deaths as people just starving to death. When I took a peak at the death log I got the following results

6014 deaths
2244 SIDS deaths
2561 Hunger related/animal deaths
802 old age deaths
307 murder deaths.

Clearly there's 100 or so difference in between our results so I'll just add it to hunger related since that's probably what I'm missing. Our final death count looks closer to this

3770 total deaths for the day
2661 hunger related/animal deaths
802 old age deaths
307 murder deaths.

So we're respectively sitting at around a 70.6% hunger/animal death rate, a 21.27% old age death rate, and a 8.14% murder death rate. If any of my math is wrong I wouldn't be totally surprised as I was never good at math in the first place but it seems deceiving to include what are essentially just players rerolling in the math.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-18 00:38:31

Sure, so 91% of deaths are peaceful, if you ignore SIDS.

Thus, the game is not an insane bloodbath where you're constantly getting murdered or getting murdered 2x for every non-murdered life.

No, instead you live 11 peaceful lives for every life where you are murdered. Getting murdered 1 out of every 12 lives sounds about right to me. Does that sound crazy to you? Sounds like a pretty reasonable amount of conflict and drama. 1/12 of the game is conflict and drama. Good.

In a game like rust, you get killed over and over and over by other players and then finally live for a little while.

This isn't like that, and isn't meant to be. This is a game about building a civilization. Rust isn't really about that (though it almost could be).

However, that doesn't mean that murder should NEVER occur in this game. Obviously, murder is necessary in some cases (as I've explained repeatedly) because otherwise, there's no way to enforce village rules, deal with griefers, and so on.

Beyond that, though, some amount of conflict is interesting. I wouldn't want NO conflict. Would you?

As for the "morality" of it.... this is a game, not real life. No one is actually dying here. People act like I have a moral responsibility to build a game where people can live in some kind of communal utopia. Somehow, people hitched their political wagon to this game as a sign of hope for humanity. They look at the real world and see something terribly broken and evil. They hope to find a better world in my video game.

I look at the real world and see something beautiful and amazing and wonderful. This game is actually a love letter to the real world, with all its beautiful messiness. With all its human complication. With all its emotion and turmoil.

This game is not a piece of political propaganda.

That said, murder in this game is more real than it is in a single player game, and more real than it is in a movie. That's a good thing, I think.

jasonrohrer · 2019-07-18 00:44:10

Also, if Tarr and a few other folks run around and intentionally inflate the murder rate to prove a point, what point are they proving, exactly?

I could do the same thing in real life. Many people do. But it doesn't exactly prove a point.

Well, I suppose it proves the OPPOSITE point. It's so easy to run around and kill lots of people. Thus, it's amazing how peaceful things are, then, isn't it? I mean, it's amazing how much we can trust each other.

And that's REAL trust, and real trust is the only interesting trust. Toothless trust is meaningless. Two prisoners chained up next to each other don't need to trust each other. Two starving men with guns on a desert island can build a real trust over time.

"You had so many chances to kill me, but you never did. I love you."

Dantox · 2019-07-18 02:08:06

You could exactly have the same exact scenario before with knives, war sword were meant to be used on "wars" (more like raids because there is not a way to fight back because the offenser has the advantage) hell, even the name has "war" written all on it.

8% may seem small, but getting raided or killed at sigh is not fun and it only destroys the feeling that ohol is supposed to give you, 8% could be 10 family lines or 10 towns destroyed just because the war sword and the raiders cannot get punished for ruining someone elses experience because they are an outsider and actual curse system is broken.

And because you broke the curse system to make it so foreigners cannot be cursed you enabled the "KILL ALL OUTSIDERS" rule on all towns so every town will be isolated until there is a bunch of guys who decided to let that stranger baby girl live that would become the reason that the town ends on a civil war to gain total control of the city between families

Its not interesting, its not fun for most of the players and it should not be a part of the game that was advertised as a charming bonding civilization game.

Tarr · 2019-07-18 03:36:48

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, if Tarr and a few other folks run around and intentionally inflate the murder rate to prove a point, what point are they proving, exactly?
I could do the same thing in real life. Many people do. But it doesn't exactly prove a point.

Well, I suppose it proves the OPPOSITE point. It's so easy to run around and kill lots of people. Thus, it's amazing how peaceful things are, then, isn't it? I mean, it's amazing how much we can trust each other.
And that's REAL trust, and real trust is the only interesting trust. Toothless trust is meaningless. Two prisoners chained up next to each other don't need to trust each other. Two starving men with guns on a desert island can build a real trust over time.
"You had so many chances to kill me, but you never did. I love you."

The thing is the murder rate has been stable the last week, floating around the 8-10% murder rate per day once you pull the SIDS babies out of the death pile. Swords are not palatable to players because there's no reasonable defense against them.

Someone who is going to attack you is going to be someone playing with a modded client. This person is also going to be a maximum zoom whenever they get near enough to issue the kill command. While you might hear growls which informs you to zoom out you've at this point lost the fight should you draw a weapon on your attacker since they issued the kill command first. Unless you find a bow and arrow within the next 10 or so seconds you are likely to just be dead.

Fences are still not up to snuff as we see players basically refusing to use them due to how inaccessible they make the town you're in. Not only this but they still will suffer from either players blocking the gates OR people teleporting in baby soldiers. While adding a floor piece to prevent tile blocking in front of a gate was a step in the right idea as long as newcomen towers can't be dismantled we will pretty much always be stuck with gates not being usable from a viability prospective just on that alone. This of course is also ignoring when people plan bad fences which are too little, too big, or too few gates to allow entry. Your weakest link will kill everyone and that's if they weren't already purposely letting in the people with swords.

I don't think players have a problem with a weapon existing that only kills other lineage so much as they have a problem with a poor pvp system mixed with an overpowered weapon plus a lack of viable defense options.

So without trying to give you my own solutions to the problem I'll list you the exact problems.

1) In the current game system defensive options to counter the sword are either deemed unviable for actual practice (fences), cannot be as easily handled as a sword (bows), or have been removed (snowballs)

2) In the current game system the first growl always wins. This makes it so attempting to fight back is meaningless. If you do not specifically know this fact you will 100% of the time lose against your attacker who is likely attacking you from maximum zoom. This plays back into the fact that defending against a sword is much more difficult than in the previous pvp system.

3) Sword juggling and duel wielding exists which isn't present on any of the other weapons in game. Bows which are supposed to be the counter to swords have a 4x longer cooldown and risk shooting innocent players if you aren't careful. Without a range equivalent to the sword the war sword will have the advantage in almost every fight.

4) Swords cannot be dismantled or recycled like their other melee counterpart. This means any sword created must be dragged very far into the wilderness or teleported into a special made cell to prevent retrieval. Even if swords are hidden they are very easy to mass produce in the current game.

Peace between families should be the default, not a rarity. The problem comes not from the fact that it's hard to work with people but that exactly one person can and WILL ruin it at some point for the lulz. It won't be because he had a reason, and it won't be because they've done something to upset him but it will be for the sole reason to get his le epik shift clicking fix.

People are just tired at this point. Unlike previously where you could tell someone to git gud and protect their village you've removed that which just leads to a bunch of helpless sheep getting preyed on.

Morti · 2019-07-18 03:36:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

307 murders on Sunday out of 6014 deaths.
95% of deaths on Sunday were peaceful.
805 people lived to 60 on Sunday. That's 2.6x the number of people who were murdered.
If you are claiming constant murder in this game, you're either exaggerating for rhetorical purposes (my suspicion) or very unlucky.
You don't like the sword. I get it.
But calling this game a "murder simulator" is ridiculous.

Your numbers don't tell you how many of those 5700 deaths were a release from the fear people had of being murdered in that lifetime. Or what percentage of each of those lives were spent looking at people with bows and knives, wondering if they were going to kill those people, or, spent wondering if working on their town was worth it, if someone with a sword could come in at any moment.

Morti · 2019-07-18 03:45:32

Tarr wrote:

6014 deaths
2244 SIDS deaths
2561 Hunger related/animal deaths
802 old age deaths
307 murder deaths.

Excuse me, of those 2561+802... 3363, deaths.

2244/6014, that's sad.

Tarr · 2019-07-18 03:49:07

Morti wrote:

Tarr wrote:
6014 deaths
2244 SIDS deaths
2561 Hunger related/animal deaths
802 old age deaths
307 murder deaths.
Excuse me, of those 2561+802... 3363, deaths.
2244/6014, that's sad.

Incoming wall of text: I ended up doing the whole week while removing out all the SIDS since I don't really count them as deaths in the long run. If there are any errors it's because I fetched all the data manually myself from the death logs.

Total deaths for Tuesday: 4977

Hunger - 2057
killer 306
Sids - 1851
Old age - 763

Minus SIDS: 3126
Murder rate: 10% of all lives.

Total deaths for Monday: 4987

Hunger - 2214
SIDS 1705
old age - 716
Killer 352

Minus SIDS - 3282
Murder rate: 10.7%

Total deaths for Sunday: 6014

Hunger - 2561
Sids - 2344
Old age - 802
Killer - 307

Minus Sids - 3670
Murder rate: 8.4%

Total deaths for Saturday: 5834

Hunger - 2538
Sids - 2181
Old age - 801
Killer - 314

Minus Sids - 3653
Murder rate: 8.6%

Total deaths for Friday: 5349

Hunger - 2338
Sids - 1970
Old age - 750
Killer - 291

Minus Sids - 3379
Murder rate: 8.6%

Total deaths for Thursday: 4951

Hunger - 2311
Sids - 1689
Old age - 682
Killer - 269

Minus Sids - 3262
Murder rate: 8.2%

Total deaths for Wednesday: 4912

Hunger - 2286
Sids - 1595
Old age - 724
Killer - 307

Minus Sids - 3317
Murder rate: 9.3%

Last edited by Tarr (2019-07-18 03:51:41)

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