If fences are not viable, what does that mean?

DaTrüf! · 2019-05-18 03:36:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

Tarr says that fences are hopeless, because someone else can just block you in to grief you.
While I have my doubts that this is entirely true, and I haven't seen this happening in the game incessantly, it raises an important question:

Fences are just a special case of buildings.
Are buildings, in general, doomed for this same reason?

If so, what does this mean? That structures in the game will never be viable? That any kind of security in the game is hopeless?
And how could that really be true? There are other mutiplayer games where structures are viable, right?
And if it is true in this game, for some weird reason specific to this game, how can it be fixed? Tarr?

no, tarr is wrong dont let his opinion influence you

tarr represents like 2% of the community on this issue

everyone loves fences and buildings

jasonrohrer · 2019-05-18 03:45:22

Feigned, I guess I could block placement of stuff near the door.... but I'd have to code something in engine to do that, and it doesn't fully solve the problem, because someone can build a nice little "fence rainbow" around the unbuildable area.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 04:34:25

jasonrohrer wrote:

Feigned, I guess I could block placement of stuff near the door.... but I'd have to code something in engine to do that, and it doesn't fully solve the problem, because someone can build a nice little "fence rainbow" around the unbuildable area.

Well yeah, sure. But if it was literally fences, they can easily be knocked down or even just picked right up. Anything else would take a long enough time for someone to notice. Let's say it only was two spaces in front of a door that you couldn't build on, that's 7 walls you would need to put up without someone noticing. Isn't the problem the quick stake, rock, wall combo (meaning it takes all of a few seconds and a single building material to block off the door)? And that's if you have only one door. What is everyone doing inside the building that they're not going to notice someone putting up 14-21 (for 2-3 doors) walls?

I don't know how much harder it could make it, but you could even include the two tiles next to it (example below). That would make 9 walls to block one door. I don't know, I just find it hard to see someone getting away with all that. Unless the building is deserted...in which case, who's hurt by it?

*
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Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-18 04:49:04)

TheSamWish · 2019-05-18 04:38:22

Could you maybe use a road tile instead of a floor tile to block building? I feel like there is waaay less reason to build on a flat rock road tile. Blocking building things on that specific tile instead of wood flooring might be easier to do and make more sense.

Tarr · 2019-05-18 04:45:36

A thing I'd like to point out when it comes to doors and flooring: If you put two floors left and right of where you want to install a door when you place the door down in the stakes it'll automatically connect the two floors in the space removing the need for having to set down a floor in the first place. Flint chipping the door will remove the floor under the door since there's not actually a door there.

So there's 100% no reason to worry about trying to place stakes on flooring for the purpose of the door. Looking back at walls you can't even tell there's a floor under then unless it's a north/south door or wall which just looks silly. If you don't place a floor under the door the same auto fill occurs which looks much better than if you actually put flooring down.

So looking back at the previous post the only potential things you would want to stake on top of flooring is a newcomen tower or as you pointed out something like rails. Otherwise, not allowing people to build walls/fences/stakes on wood flooring seems like a good idea.

Dodge · 2019-05-18 04:53:55

Wooden and stone floors can be removed anyway so what's the point...

We should have property floors.

Even better if they use the gate system where they only get removed when everyone on the list dies, but since you would have to add everyone to an individual floor.

Family property floors.

The family of the person that makes them owns them, family dies, floors get removed.

You cant build any blocking object on property floors.

Maybe not even droping any object on them to make it easier.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-18 05:02:46

Dodge wrote:

Wooden and stone floors can be removed anyway so what's the point...
We should have property floors.
Even better if they use the gate system where they only get removed when everyone on the list dies, but since you would have to add everyone to an individual floor.
Family property floors.
The family of the person that makes them owns them, family dies, floors get removed.
You cant build any blocking object on property floors.
Maybe not even droping any object on them to make it easier.

Flooring can be removed, but it requires time and it attracts attention. If there is no-build floor in the way, a potential griefer will need more time and tools to cause problems and removing the flooring should raise concerns with on-lookers. "Property floors" might be necessary, but I think it is worth trying just regular floors first to see if that is enough to curb the behavior.

If you make the unbuildable floors too hard to remove you will end up going full circle and giving griefers a new griefing tool - spamming property floors in bad spots to block construction projects.

Tarr · 2019-05-18 05:04:26

Because it acts as a deterrent for raiders or outsiders to just blocking you in. Sure something like a family property floor would be better but I'm just trying to suggest quick ideas.

Eves can't adze up the floors to build gates or fences in front of entrances and even if a raider brings and adze it should be pretty loud hearing all the floors getting ripped up near one of the town entrances/exits. Basically if possible you should design stationary buildings that have constant use (nursery/smith/bakery) each at one of your entrances/exits to make sure people are paying attention to this sort of thing. Whether or not people would pay attention is up in the air though.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 05:07:13

Tarr wrote:

Because it acts as a deterrent for raiders or outsiders to just blocking you in. Sure something like a family property floor would be better but I'm just trying to suggest quick ideas.
Eves can't adze up the floors to build gates or fences in front of entrances and even if a raider brings and adze it should be pretty loud hearing all the floors getting ripped up near one of the town entrances/exits. Basically if possible you should design stationary buildings that have constant use (nursery/smith/bakery) each at one of your entrances/exits to make sure people are paying attention to this sort of thing. Whether or not people would pay attention is up in the air though.

Why would they have to rip up all the floors? Just rip up the one in front of the door.

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-18 05:07:27)

Tarr · 2019-05-18 05:09:11

FeignedSanity wrote:

Tarr wrote:
Because it acts as a deterrent for raiders or outsiders to just blocking you in. Sure something like a family property floor would be better but I'm just trying to suggest quick ideas.
Eves can't adze up the floors to build gates or fences in front of entrances and even if a raider brings and adze it should be pretty loud hearing all the floors getting ripped up near one of the town entrances/exits. Basically if possible you should design stationary buildings that have constant use (nursery/smith/bakery) each at one of your entrances/exits to make sure people are paying attention to this sort of thing. Whether or not people would pay attention is up in the air though.
Why would they have to rip up all the floors? Just rip up the one in front of the door.

Because unless your gate is placed poorly they've got to at least block three tiles since you can walk out diagonally as well as just straight. So sure they don't need to rip up all the boards but they do have to rip up at least three.

BladeWoods · 2019-05-18 05:10:47

I don't think blocking buildings is that big of an issue, things that are unmovable and undeconstructable like newcomen engines need to be fixed. Once all those are fixed the only way to perma block a gate is with property fences but those take time to set. You've got 23 minutes to remove attempts at blocking gates with property fences. Could extend that time if really worried about it.

Locks on doors are still a problem, though spring doors help with that. Maybe installing a lock should be something more time-consuming and complex than just slapping a lock on a door.

Like others are saying buildings aren't a thing b/c there's little to no advantage to them and a LOT of detriment from them forcing longer walking paths and taking up a lot of space. Usually towns only bother maintaining one fire, b/c that's all a town needs and it is a little expensive to maintain a fire. The advantage of buildings to contain heat from a fire could only be useful for one building at most. And it's not that much better than being fully clothed in a nuetral biome especially with doors opening and closing which they constantly would be if it's the only fire in town.

Maybe open doors could just be considered walls as far as heat and heat calculation is concerned. So open doors don't leak heat. A little unrealistic but this is a game. Would help buildings a tid bit.

Or since Feined has a good point, doors could not leak heat for just a few seconds after they're open, then leak heat. Still have to close them, but the heat of the building isn't hurt from opening and closing.

Last edited by BladeWoods (2019-05-18 05:17:57)

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 05:12:33

@Tarr

Oh, I get it. Two more clicks. Well that will make all the difference. Cool, thanks for clarifying.

So a one wall in front of a door will block it, but fence needs three? Or does a door need three too?

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 05:14:35

BladeWoods wrote:

Maybe open doors could just be considered walls as far as heat and heat calculation is concerned. So open doors don't leak heat. Would help buildings a tid bit.

But then there'd be no point in ever closing the door. Just always leave it open. Were you raised in a barn?

Tarr · 2019-05-18 05:22:36

FeignedSanity wrote:

@Tarr
Oh, I get it. Two more clicks. Well that will make all the difference. Cool, thanks for clarifying.

So a one wall in front of a door will block it, but fence needs three? Or does a door need three too?

You have to block all three tiles in front of a door or gate to actually block access. Blocking a door like in the picture creates a one way door (can only be opened from inside or outside in this case) while if the tomato tiles were also blocked the door would become completely useless as there's no way to walk in and out of an area.

So three blocking is basically used to grief a door while placing just one item in front of it creates a "lock" that requires a player to let you in from the other side.

Last edited by Tarr (2019-05-18 05:22:51)

Dodge · 2019-05-18 05:25:51

Yeah maybe the property floors shouldnt be too hard to remove, maybe they would need to be connected to a property gate, and would take the same property rights as the property gate near them.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-18 05:45:17

Huh, so why was this a concern in the first place?

I honestly think the floor change just adds a few more clicks, but i guess we'll see.

CatX · 2019-05-18 07:37:20

Winters? One year out of sixty winter destroys all food left outside, destroys crops (but not seeds) and drops your temperature even if you're wearing clothes or near a fire outside. So we work to create safe spaces before winter comes. We don't need snow covering everything during winter, perhaps a few snow flakes could drift across the screen while the food is destroyed.

Fences - Would it be possible for one hit with the rock to repair an area of fences, say all fences within a radius of three tiles?

pein · 2019-05-18 07:39:47

jasonrohrer wrote:

Tarr says that fences are hopeless, because someone else can just block you in to grief you.
While I have my doubts that this is entirely true, and I haven't seen this happening in the game incessantly, it raises an important question:

Fences are just a special case of buildings.
Are buildings, in general, doomed for this same reason?

If so, what does this mean? That structures in the game will never be viable? That any kind of security in the game is hopeless?
And how could that really be true? There are other mutiplayer games where structures are viable, right?
And if it is true in this game, for some weird reason specific to this game, how can it be fixed? Tarr?

i think i made the most pens in this game, and experienced with every kind of blocking materials
the main issue that not everyone is able to build reasonably, mainly because they got no zoom and newbees tend to place everything too close
and they don't know the importance of free tiles, and ironically they die cause they cant put down an item cause no free tiles

the kid of the eve just snaps down an adobe, and gen 3 they build a kitchen around it cause why make new when already got one?
so either have some sort of building rights or some rules/limitation in building
but some sort of planning support would help
this is long ago a big issue, how to enforce free tiles, i was the first who suggested that we would need some sort of recipe to prevent building/planting on some tiles

morti was the first who pre-designed 3x3 farm plots, i was the first who digged trough berry fields and placed roads in between, i was too bored, no content in a while and tried to make it meta. i think i was kinda successful with it, people started to do the same

i think it wouldn't be hard, and you could implement it, and people would love it: dirt roads
similar to fences, an easily spammable road, which prevents building and planting on it, has a decay timer or durability
can be removed with some basic tool

once i found a startign camp, nothing major, kiln, fire tools, carrot farm, snare, saved me like 20 min top.
i had kids who werent the most pro, but listened to my directions. First son i sent to rabbits, iron, he died later but his work was useful.
My next girl started planting berries, told her to keep spacing, and so she did, planted two 3x3 berry fields with empty tiles on middle.
My third kid, a newbee son, asked for a job, and made sense to put him on firewood gathering as i made axe by that time. Once he finished, told him to cut boards. Then i made a road aroudn berries. 39 gen later i came back and the city had 10 plots of 3x3.
Now i catched my girl before she tilled the soil and planted the seed, and was able to prevent boxed berry field, but generally we got no time to farm and do tools, and it's a good job for a new player.
and if i cant tell them how to do it or where then the result is often very bad

so a dirt road would be the best thing to do so. similar to floors would prevent farming, show the way, imagine makign a square of dirt road, would be logical to everyoen that you plant inside it, or make the pen inside it, or make the room inside it, mark the way between 2 springs and would be logical to space out everything else

btw we use floors much more often than fences, walls or pits. you should change the orders and floor stakes first, EW stakes, NS stakes, Diagonal then pit

i told this so many times and annoys me a bit every time:
as this game is on a square based map, square shape buildigns are most optimal
i only noticed this after drawing pens in image editor
each pen/room needs 4 corners, corners have 3 tiles next to them
sides need 1 wall next to them to block it
center of building needs no wall
to have more center tiles, the best is to have a square shape building
this way the number of free tiles inside is the most optimal for the cost
when extendign a building, the shorter side extension costs the same but gives more inner tiles

in certain games you need a road to be conencted in order to make a building, like knights and merchants, tropico, etc.
but also the buildings are predefined
what about havign some sort of predefined structures?
for example hit stakes with a building hammer (mallet+file for example), then it would show the options and how would the buildign fit, the area needs to be cleaned up, and would show the unremovable structures red (ponds, cactus, etc)
scale the size, then it would put stakes all around it, then show that the cost is 36 adobe for example
either some sort of tool to draw rectangles and select a purpose for it
we could use them as stockpiles for food, wood, iron, other things
we could edit them if needed but would help people to recognize what they should put where
or what building goes there and how much space is needed

the dirt roads could be upgraded later on, and maybe the stockpiles could also be upgraded, maybe some sort of storage that can hold more items than normal, but even a spot for attachign a sign, would help

same issue with fences: they arent full proof
maybe allow adobe or stone placedon top of it, so it wont compromise the blocking tiles, so people could upgrade their fences to adobe or stone

in rust twigs are similar, cheap, non durable buildign material, mostly to planning phase or roleplay reasons, easy to destroy or upgrade
by providing entry level building material, which later can be solidified, people would build more
sure, it has to have some sort of limit on player or on the material
if a property fence can have 16 uses ( that can surround 3x3 tiles) , then is quite balanced
or one player can have only 16 tiles of fences , but multiple people can have more than that attached to each other, sharing the ownership
maybe just until upgraded to at least half walls ( wouldn't remove the fences so cant be watered up instantly, maybe with a timer of 5 min to allow reaction)
also some sort of modifier first to prevent accidents with fenced forges

this entry level buildings would allow planning a city early on and upgrading later when people got the resources

speaking of resources, just had a life near a tutorial town
rushed sheep and horse, finished pen at 18, by 20 i made shears and we had knife, so made saddle, and attached a cart, so i made 6 runs to the tutorial area 120 tiles away
i targeted iron, ropes, it had a part decayed and was near a swamp so i watered it up and got 15 adobe back
lot of clothes too
this is best case scenario, me, or tarr, mirelli, some others got tons of experience building structures but still takes 20-30 min minimum to gather the resoruces and build it up, and as i said people don't like to gather but like to use gathered materials
each time i tried to make a sheep pen, with half walls, people upgraded the half walls before completign the circle for functionality
distance has a limitation on materials, even if we got a huge swamp near us, people don't go gathering, digging up reed
to have structures, maybe we need cheaper buildings
maybe adobe would have 2 uses, which could make a full wall or 2 half walls, or cover 2 tiles, that would make the standard fences more viable too, to cover 2 tiles with them at a time, the 2 uses sounds better cause then we could still design tile by tile and make even or odd length walls by preference, while with 2 tile long it would be weird on edges

same goes to wood boards, if some tree would yield 2 butt logs, and maybe grow faster, that would make people grow that tree so we can make roads or floors with it
more emphasis on working with materials, less with gathering them

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structures in general:
-they limit space, especially south side covers a tile
to solve this, we would need an option to show half versions, like sims/stronghold/desperados had

basically toggle a shortcut/button to flatten walls or just mouse over to show inside of buildings
also they could be in between tiles or edge of tiles (i guess that's not possible with the engine) but at least allow storing things somehow
hooks could store one item, shelves could store 4 items, could be same recipe as a box, boards and rope
now that would make a non movable storage for pies

-walls got no advantage over empty space, also they block movement
forging right now is just better without walls, most of us who can smit fast need around 5x7 or so space in minimum
same thing, a tool shelf and maybe a new type of forge which lasts a bit longer, would already worth the price

-the heat bonus is just not enough
the fire radiant heat alone heats up 9 tiles fairly well, 2 fires can heat up tiles perfectly in 4-6 tiles
after some testing, i measured how much the insulation bonus worth
0.5 for one fire
which is a weird mechanic, once you think about the radiant heat, bonus only matters if your airspace is outside the fire range (fire is only in your range if your airspace tiles contain the fire, so basically 4-5 tiles around you)
so bonus from insulation of walls and floors only applies when you are further than 4 tiles from fire, but enclosed space

what is a bonus that worth all the hassle? 0.5 perfect medium
right now the only way you reach 0.5 heat in a room with fire is havign a 1x5 room with fire on one side, and you in other side
fire only has a heat of 2.5 value divided per tiles
so for a decent 5x5 building, that means 0.1
but that also means that the radiant heat will overlap and creates 9 too hot tiles, and the rest which is outside fire is too cold

so regarding to heating: the only way it would work and worth it, if indoor fires have no radiant heat, but much higher bonus heat
this could be archieved with central heating, a fireplace in a wall tile, which would spread the heat evenly in the room
maybe use more firewood/last less than outside (actually should last longer to worth the hassle of building it) if we want fully perect heat in bigger rooms, but to make it viable, we need 0.5 heat over 25 tiles at least
which means that the fire inside a building should be 5x hotter but it's radiant heat should work differently, this requires to define inside and outside
---------------------------------

security via walls is quite interesting questions
a newbee might feel safe inside a fence wall, and maybe plant some milkweed and farm berries, that will keep him happy
to advance in tech, players need to work together, need to scavenge a lot
people who could make a big enough room for multiple people wont be happy inside a small 5x5 hut where they can water a few bushes only
also if you only eat berries, you need like 3-4 bushes, even if you pick the bush off and fix it right away
also quite claustrofobic to see more people inside a small area, they will block each other, i don't like to step in front of others, or if others do that
now there will be situations where some people make a big, like 30x30 feced area, but that is hard to make, hard to maintain and generally the amily members can hurt more than insiders if they got bad intentions

i seen 3 doors locked all the same time while i wasn't there for 5 minutes

my idea against door blockign was a door mat, attaching it to a door would create one extra tile which cant be blocked, and then the griefer has to block 5 tiles instead of 3 (if he blocks inside building, 1 in middle already prevents opening the door from the middle)
now we got an option to place spark gaps on floor, which is unmoveable, but ever since i knwo this, never was able o make one

but honestly a door in my perception is one "wall" that can be switched on and off and i cant imagine a situation where the front and back of the door is blocked, as on Tarr picture shows, it can be front OR back blocked, controlling the direction of movement
maybe used for a prison, or some maze, where you cant turn back, but it cant be both
Now you could technically make a turnstile door which is often used in theme parks, movie, or even for animals in pen to slow down and control movement of people, or allow acces (pay to go in or out) but in every other case a door is 3 tiles where middle can be switched and the sides are free of any blocking element
even saying that a door is 5x1 where the middle can be switched and the next 2 tiles are free, is often true
that still allows building rooms on a minimum size of 2x2, maybe you cant put a newcommen or a fence inside o nthat side where the door is
yeah i made fence for my horse inside property fences, but as you can see below, if the door is 5 size (similar to newcommen, which affects the right side tile) then blocking is much harder and the compromise is not being able to build useful structures inside either

generally a griefer wont want to work more on ruining things than you spend fixing it

same goes for walls, i don't see any situation where you want to stack walls on all 4 sides of other walls, that can only be when it's a corner of 4 rooms, and limiting those corners to corner walls only would fix the issue, normal NS wall would block out any structure EW, and EW wall would block out any structure NS. that would be a bit of a limitation to kilns and ovens, but who does that anyway?, sure a newcommen couldn't be next to a wall (exception boxes could be next to walls but not in front of doors)
maybe when you build it, you could check/uncheck those tiles and their limitations, but default would be no blocking elements next to doors 2 tile where it faces, and 1 tile for walls
honestly i would do the same with graves too
the only issue with this is the special case of flat facing walls as on picture of Tarr, i also prefer all EW walls and doors, easier to click and bigger surface for paint

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Tech reasons: there is nothing requiring to have a structure
if an advanced forge can be built only inside/next to wall, an advanced stove/oven, people want to and have to make those
if an activity can only be done inside a building, lets say sauna(gives a buff to temperature for a while), pregnancy room (higher fertility rate when you are inside that room)
Church or meditational room: no weapons can be wield/carried/hold inside
hospital: wounds show a timer and certain actions and structures slow down death of the person, go in bed, and you got 3 minutes to be healed, allowing to make new pads and needle with yarn to heal you
this things would make it worth havign a building
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Survival reasons:
occasional rain, snow, wind or hurricane which would debuff people, rain and snow would decrease maximum temperature you can reach, also would stop outside fires
hurricane would throw people away causing injuries and slowdown for a while
wind would cause slowdown or partial blindness
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Vanity reasons or for rp:
table for food, chairs, picture on the wall, fireplace, bed,easel
with minimal buffs or just convenience buff (select yum food by default, slower hunger bad decrease, longer death stagger, view a photo made with your camera, paint a photo using a small interface)
Bigger or better storage options or tracking of items taken from slot, thrash can for banana leaves, maybe composting in a bin which could be used for new type of plant, indoor farming, special upgreadable plants
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generally multiplayer games block building in other peoples property unless you gain acces of it
at least rust, ark, conan and similar games
or report the player doing such griefing and actual mods review it
or is destructable but depends on skill, materials, so you can technically use a hatchet on a wall but is so boring that you deserve to break it if you are that determiend to break it
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lastly: interface
the other day i checked the data of a day and half of the people werent even named
now from 8k was 2k SID and probably a lot of them very young bit is still around 10-20% of people who don know/forget to name their babies
same goes with the ownership and such. maybe you forgot, maybe you don't think that you die early
what about a new layer which shows all members of family with a small picture, maybe some data like age , then if you got some sort of gate, you can add/remove members to it or automaticlly allow all fmaily members, all direct ascendants (not your nepfews but your grandkids)
Oxygen not included used separate interfaces for heat, plumbing, electricity, priorities, etc. the compex systems came together nicely and it was a simple click of a button to manage them separately
------------------------------------

Specificly to this game?
no skill system, skill attached to clothing or barely any limitation of age
the elder who fed you all your life can smith tools just as the kid who grew hair
the 8 year old kid can kill anyone just as the adult
the naked griefer can take your weapon and kill you with it, not even needing him to make an effort to create a weapon first or leave the city
now i could imagine pickup age to build things, or requiring clothing to even hold a weapon but would slow us down in normal situations
the fact that people live maximum 60 minutes, make things like a building a lifetime of work, and no time of enjoying it
for example adobe wont last and if you don't plaster it, might decay
a tree will dry out if you don't make sure that you plant it before 30, and water it twice or have someone to do it for you
tree planting could yield faster wood, and wood to be used to make small wooden houses which don't last long but at least cheap and sustainable
domestic berries wasn't as common until you changed the timer from 60 to 8+2 min
we live butterfly lifes, we don't make things for our own enjoyment, even if is nice to leave things behidn for others, but since the decay update, people lack the initiative to make things, cause nothing lasts forever
all i hear is that "is a waste" "it will decay""im too old for it"
basically the uman life is cheap cause telling others how to do it is slower than making it yourself
lets say i got a newbee kid who want to help, but i don't need his help because he is too slow to realize how to do it, and it feels bad, but i cant live a life explaining things when people starving
sure they are newbees who get a cart of rabbit, get clay, iron and stuff, farm for a whole life, but they got the right attitude and soon will be veterans

one thing that this game each you is how often people got the bad attitude
and when you farm for a life, make al lthe clothing, the tools, save the town from bear, griefers, and they don't even say a thanks, they even curse you or call you old goose fucker, then you start to question why are you doing it in first place
i see some people got the same question as i had back before
people die, should i farm and sustain everyone? or be selfish and let them do their thing
cause i cant be fully selfish and make private things, i need them to continue my lineage, i feed newbees, in hope of them becoming a good contributing member of this game
the problem is those people who act as a newbee, using the chaos and lack of organization, fow and communication to slack and leach resources, when they are able to farm and able to compost, they just focus on vanity items
so that's why fences are bad, people make several small farms, several ovens and several kilns
there is no teamwork, and we stil ldont have property, we got things that we took from others, we got things that we made
we got no proof that we made something so people either think that you are a hoarder or you really are a hoarder
---------------------------------------------

one thing i think would be good fix is quest/task system
you could offer something for services
rather than putting your loin cloth on a random baby, set a quest to get 5 firewood then i give you a reward
maybe the first person who does it, maybe multiple, maybe just for competition
make 30 pies, then you get this golden pickaxe which you can use for 10 min without breaking it
this sort of tasks would motivate people to do things and everyone would profit from it

sorry for long post, hope it gives you some insight

CatX · 2019-05-18 08:25:53

pein wrote:

so a dirt road would be the best thing to do so. similar to floors would prevent farming, show the way, imagine makign a square of dirt road, would be logical to everyoen that you plant inside it, or make the pen inside it, or make the room inside it, mark the way between 2 springs and would be logical to space out everything else

I'd love dirt roads! If they're sufficiently cheap, they would be incredibly useful! Dirt roads around berry bushes. Dirt roads to tar spots and iron mines. Dirt roads thousands of tiles into the wilderness to create a network of cities.

futurebird · 2019-05-18 08:33:35

I to love dirt road but the simple change of making steaks do floor tiles first would also be a huge help for road building. It's cut the number of click need to position the steak by 4. Huge time sink carefully clicking the steak for each tile 4 times.

It's been in github for a long time and I really hope it gets changed some day.

WalrusesConquer · 2019-05-18 08:56:08

Pu's have a city fence, and so far only one person was locked out! It is hard to tell who already owns the fence though. Just went to the baby fire and passed on the message

pein · 2019-05-18 10:02:50

well, if doesn't cost much then would replace floors and fast roads
i don't want to cost anything, and very low tech, like stakes and a yew shaft combined with a curved shaft to a rake
the point is to have a low tech temporary road, yes, not forever
would decay over time, maybe in two steps
so you should upgrade it to normal road if want to last

only that it acts as a blueprint until you got the necessary tech to make real roads
lets say the road would last 1 hour then decay and 30 min need to remake or decays totally, but you could smash with stone and upgrade to a road with placing rock or wood or stone
an eve could make it fast, just a 5 side square, then tell the kid to plant berry inside it, one more, then other for stew plants
a straight road to water sources, then the + shape would cross the city and divide the fragments to work areas
top left forge, top right oven
bottom left sheep, bottom right farms

the approval same as for fences, just cut out or roll it with a straight shaft, only that cancelling it would take time and confirmation again
not just roads, the whole area under forge could be converted signaling not to build or plant there
maybe two types of dirt road, flat terrain and dirt road, flat terrain would signal a structure/workspace will be there

Potjeh · 2019-05-18 10:58:11

lychee wrote:

- Add wild animals that eat food that is left outdoors, which can be prevented if it is stored indoors

Hell, not even just food. Add raccoons that will steal *anything*, but can be kept out with a fence, and magpies which will steal any small item (ie stuff that fits in baskets) and can fly right over a fence so you need walls to stay safe from them. Also dogs could finally be useful by killing raccoons.

Last edited by Potjeh (2019-05-18 10:58:33)

Twisted · 2019-05-18 11:50:01

As many people said the problem with buildings right now is that they're just not worth it. They look cool, sure, but they often make your town worse as you lose valuable tiles. We need buildings to have an another use besides temperature improvement, as that is such a small bonus it's not really worth it.

In real life we build buildings for many reasons. Privacy is one of those reasons, but what about barns and shacks and the like? We do not need privacy in those buildings, which means we build them for some other reason. We build them to protect the things inside it from outside influences.

What if buildings in OHOL did exactly that, or something similar at least since there is no weather. What if items decayed at 50% the normal rate while they are inside the building? Slow fires would last eight minutes instead of four, clothing decay would slow down while the wearer is indoors, the forge is on for longer giving us more time to smith, dyes simmer for longer giving us more time to dye clothes.

The cool thing about this idea (IMO) is that it would also affect some things negatively as some decay timers are actually good. If you have a hot steel crucible you want to take it outside as it will take longer for it to cool off indoors. You don't want to wall off your crops as they'll take longer to grow. Cows in barns will take longer to get to the milk stage, but you'll also have more time to milk them. You want sheep out in the open as you'll have to wait less for wool that way.

If buildings worked this way I think it would be reasonable to make food decay as well.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-18 11:54:40

pein wrote:

i think i made the most pens in this game, and experienced with every kind of blocking materials

You've experienced unpowered crude cars blocking door exists or made a pen out of unpowered crude cars?

pein wrote:

the main issue that not everyone is able to build reasonably, mainly because they got no zoom and newbees tend to place everything too close
and they don't know the importance of free tiles, and ironically they die cause they cant put down an item cause no free tiles

Even if buildings end up useful I agree this would still be a problem. Buildings won't be worth the squeeze for a bakery that is too small or a smithy where you can't roll out enough rods, because of lack of space. Also, not flooring underneath structures, such as newcomen engines sounds like it would be a problem.

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#26 2019-05-18 03:36:53

Re: If fences are not viable, what does that mean?

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