Wood Flooring (Other Than for Improving Crop Picking) is The Devil

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 13:37:26

Wood flooring needs an entire 8x8 airspace to have an effect, or have a building surrounding it. It needs every tile covered. In a neutral biome (grassland, badlands, savanah/prairie, swamp) or tundra the temperature benefit comes from fire. A smart baby can just stand on the fire and dance a little bit to optimize temperature, though with how often children get overfed that really doesn't seem like an issue. Thus, wood flooring just isn't useful. Yes, there's an exception of flooring to prevent people from picking the inner bushes or picking other crops a few rows in like carrots and beans. But, as good as that may be, non-farming flooring is just a waste of time and slows down the production of other things, like clogs and buckets.

On the other hand wooden shoes to immediately improve the temperature of people and buckets are useful. They might become even more useful after this update. To start buckets can get used for water. The kitchen might need a bucket since it might not have a close source of water. Farms often can use multiple water buckets around them to improve the efficiency of farmers. Anyone who runs the engine can use a bucket, and since tarry spots usually aren't on top of the settlement, multiple buckets could improve the efficiency of doing a rig. A rubber oven can use several buckets. Buckets can get used for whole milk and skim milk. Rubber for rubber carts, a newcomen pump, an oil rig, or a newcomen multipurpose engine all need a bucket. If you want to make a bunch of sauerkraut or ice cream you might want a special bucket for saltwater. And iron mining needs a bucket for a stanchion kit. Stanchion kits also come as how you can even get a deep well in the first place, since you'll need a bucket for each stanchion kit. I went back to my two developed settlements on server12 the other day and learned that I hadn't made enough buckets in my own settlements to optimize efficient everywhere (and I wasn't making like 4-6 deep wells either).

The problem of wood flooring may come as even worse given current player dynamics. In a recent game, here's my lineage, I was Larenzo: http://lineage.onehouronelife.com/serve … id=4320885 we had some nice iron by the smithy as a child. I start thinking about newcomen tech, but figure the main holdup is lack of buckets (it was). So, I take a horsecart, make 4 baskets out of town, then find a pick and a stanchion kit, so I exchange two of the baskets for the mining pick and the stanchion kit, and bring home like 2 more iron, a pie, and 7 ropes. Someone, apparently using the hetuw mod, is making useless wood flooring by the oven. I look for the adze, but don't see it (I find it later). So, I use the froe like once or twice and make a few buckets. Some boards get made by someone else, so I take some disks and make more buckets. Then she stabs me and calls me a griefer. Lady, you were wrong. Your wood floors are useless and you need A LOT of buckets to have an efficient and well-run settlement. You sure your family has enough buckets? Your certainty is almost surely wrong, and the family can use more buckets.

CatX · 2019-05-03 15:18:37

I like wood floors regardless of heating. Give me floors without walls any day.

If the resources are better used elsewhere, I would suggest to implement cheaper floors (although I don't know what that would be... dirt floors? Sounds too dark, part of the point is to see available tools and ingredients quickly. Carpets? Sounds expensive...)

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-03 16:08:21

I find myself agreeing with Spoonwood. I get that people like them because they find them aesthetically pleasing, but I personally find it annoying and wasteful. However, I reconcile myself with the fact that when it's all said and done, it's just a quick and easy source of boards >:]

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-03 16:10:49)

Whatever · 2019-05-03 16:24:59

Its not so difficult to get logs. Take a cart and an axe and you can make 3 buckets easily
Why destroy someone else's work?

I would not stab or curse someone for removing a wooden floor tile in order to make a bucket, but i dont think it should be done unless there are no logs/tools anywhere.

I sometimes make wooden floors around farms, this is often required, otherwise people will just keep expanding farms without letting space in between.

Bob 101 · 2019-05-03 17:10:18

Logs are abundant, Infinite if you travel.
I think wood flooring is also good for designating work areas.

What I want to know is why you didn't just collect the materials yourself?

Last edited by Bob 101 (2019-05-03 17:20:35)

DestinyCall · 2019-05-03 17:23:20

Spoonwood wrote:

Someone, apparently using the hetuw mod, is making useless wood flooring by the oven. I look for the adze, but don't see it (I find it later). So, I use the froe like once or twice and make a few buckets. Some boards get made by someone else, so I take some disks and make more buckets. Then she stabs me and calls me a griefer. Lady, you were wrong. Your wood floors are useless and you need A LOT of buckets to have an efficient and well-run settlement. You sure your family has enough buckets? Your certainty is almost surely wrong, and the family can use more buckets.

Intentionally wrecking someone else's project to get the material for YOUR project is incredibly rude behavior. I think she was justified in assuming you were a griefer. Next time, ASK the woman if you can use some of her boards to make more buckets. You saw that she was working on a flooring project. Those were not just random boards, abandoned by the previous generation. She gathered the logs, cut them into boards and had a specific purpose that she intended to use them for. That was a lot of time and hard work that she put into that project and everyone only have one life to finish working in a particular village. When you disrupt someone else's work you potentially prevent them from finishing what they have set out to achieve and ruin their enjoyment ... just like a griefer.

You should respect other productive players. Their work is important too. If you are making buckets and already have a froe, you don't need to steal someone else's boards. If you can't find the froe or adze, you could just ask that woman where to find the tool you need. She obviously got those boards from somewhere. If neither of you can find the necessary tools, make another one, if you have sufficient iron. It does no one any good if you dismantle someone else's hard work or intentionally get in their way because you feel their goal is less valuable than your goal. Especially if you do so without communicating your intentions and reasoning to the other person so they understand why you are acting like a jerk. It just looks like you are disrupting peaceful village life and ruining things for no reason.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-05-03 17:25:11)

Booklat1 · 2019-05-03 18:12:17

as said before, if you steal floors already placed you arent helping

get your own logs, plant trees

coriander · 2019-05-03 18:22:12

You'd complain if someone stole the milkweed for your buckets because they have "better plans", so how is this any different.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 19:22:45

DestinyCall wrote:

Intentionally wrecking someone else's project to get the material for YOUR project is incredibly rude behavior.

Town buckets aren't just for me. They are for everyone. In that time where I was making multiple buckets, I filled one with water and put it by the wheat farm. I wasn't wheat farming myself, nor planned on doing it.

DestinyCall wrote:

I think she was justified in assuming you were a griefer.

Alright, tell me then, what was I grieving?

DestinyCall wrote:

Next time, ASK the woman if you can use some of her boards to make more buckets.

She doesn't own the boards in the first place.

DestinyCall wrote:

You saw that she was working on a flooring project. Those were not just random boards, abandoned by the previous generation.

If they are more than random, then tell me exactly how those boards DO something with respect to game mechanics.

DestinyCall wrote:

When you disrupt someone else's work you potentially prevent them from finishing what they have set out to achieve and ruin their enjoyment ... just like a griefer.

No, I don't think she enjoys that. She thought it useful. She was wrong and she delayed more useful projects.

DestinyCall wrote:

You should respect other productive players.

She was NOT being productive. So what you say doesn't apply to me. Wooden flooring for a kitchen? It's useless, a waste of time for the player doing, and a positive inhibition on other things like cows, wooden shoes, rubber, deep wells, newcomen technology, sauerkraut, ice cream, and iron mining. I think I had like 5 buckets made, and was about to make another. We didn't even have a deep well, so rubber and other projects could started and farming could be better. I already had several rope when she had put down wood flooring. She slowed down the progression of the family.

Again, she doesn't own the boards.

DestinyCall wrote:

It does no one any good if you dismantle someone else's hard work or intentionally get in their way because you feel their goal is less valuable than your goal.

I do not merely feel such, I KNOW that her wood flooring for the bakery is useless. You think otherwise? Don't make me laugh. You have no information to support wood flooring in an open air bakery on bigserver2, and what's even worse is that she couldn't build a building there without cramping the smithy, which when that happens I don't doubt it results in players who can smith suiciding as babies.

DestinyCall wrote:

Especially if you do so without communicating your intentions and reasoning to the other person so they understand why you are acting like a jerk.

I did explain (most) of the uses of buckets AFTER she stabbed me. She didn't say anything before that though.

DestinyCall wrote:

It just looks like you are disrupting peaceful village life and ruining things for no reason.

There's no fighting in using resources that are around. Stabbing someone is another story.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 19:26:31

Booklat1 wrote:

as said before, if you steal floors already placed you arent helping
get your own logs, plant trees

She doesn't own the floors.

Plant trees? LOL You definitely want a bucket for that. Alright, you're probably joking with that tree comment, but if not, you're not consistent. Planting trees without a bucket or two? That can be slow. Plus those trees won't provide me with logs.

Furthemore, a 5x5 floored area is 25 butt logs. A town that has made 25 buckets? Alright, you MUST be joking with that tree comment, because just one person making wood floors can probably eat more butt logs than anyone else using them.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 19:30:09

coriander wrote:

You'd complain if someone stole the milkweed for your buckets because they have "better plans", so how is this any different.

Strange that you expect that, because the next life I got born into a family, we had some rope around, and someone made a bunch of reed skirts. I didn't say anything about the rope consumption. And no, in general, I do NOT own milkweed. Even the ropes I bring home, I don't own, except those in my backpack or that I have in my hand. I've brought ropes home and then left them around sometimes, never knowing what someone else does with THE TOWN'S ropes.

thundersen · 2019-05-03 19:43:11

Spoonwood, I think nobody is contesting your point about open air floors. (Except to organize farms.)

I agree with the others though that you should have talked to that lady. Just yoinking shit from under people's noses is rude. And maybe she would even have seen your point about buckets.

futurebird · 2019-05-03 20:17:31

We had a griefer kid in one of our towns, spammed faces as a baby, was rude, grabbed the adz and tore up any board he could find. In side buildings, berry paths, everything. Took like 15 to put it all back. She killed you to put a stop to your destruction and because she isn't a mind reader who would know what your issue was.

She made the right call. You should have cut your own trees. Gotten your own logs. If trees were short then plant some and walk further.

If you talked to her nicely she might have given you the boards... or not. Lots of of people find that having the space defined is very useful. Makes it easier to organize and floors like that can serve as a blueprint for future buildings. (lets you see if the building will be large enough, is placed well in advance) It's not all about what will or won't keep you warm. A town without a floor in the bakery looks provisional, incomplete. And making floors is a nice project that makes kids want to stay.

Your idea was suspect in value, you communicated it poorly and choose the most annoying and antagonistic way to implement it. Sounds like the woman who stabbed you was keeping an eye on the town.

And I've said this before but... Again... it's more important to have people cheerfully engaged in projects they care about who stay for their whole lives than being a caustic bean counter over min/max perfection.

You made a nice productive person feel unwelcome, how do you calculate how many pips or births per fertile female THAT is worth?

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-03 20:19:43)

CatX · 2019-05-03 21:16:10

Spoonwood wrote:

She was NOT being productive. So what you say doesn't apply to me. Wooden flooring for a kitchen? It's useless, a waste of time for the player doing,

It's not useless if it was fun to the person doing it and if there are others living in the same town who enjoy wooden floors in buildings.

The only truly useless act is griefing, because it is a way of actively hindering and boring others. Wooden floors are not detrimental to your experience in any way unless you choose to be annoyed by them.

Spoonwood wrote:

and a positive inhibition on other things like cows, wooden shoes, rubber, deep wells, newcomen technology, sauerkraut, ice cream, and iron mining.

Wood is not iron.

Again, if this really is such a big problem, we need to ask Jason to either make floors cheaper, or trees less rare.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-03 21:59:17

CatX wrote:

Again, if this really is such a big problem, we need to ask Jason to either make floors cheaper, or trees less rare.

It is not that much of a problem except in Spoonwood's imagination. We already have many ways to handle a shortage of nearby trees without resorting to floor theft or abandoning all non-bucket related board projects. And we are a long way from a meta where building wooden floors is bad for the village even if you are a hardcore min-maxer who despises wasted effort.

On the upside, it is nice to see that Spoonwood has moved on from over-focusing on yum foods to worrying about bucket production. That's a much more useful obession. Never enough buckets.

FeignedSanity · 2019-05-03 22:07:49

So, I don't know if anyone was directly speaking to me, or the OP. But I felt like some people might've been so I wanted to clarify some things.

Getting boards is not difficult. However, the fact still remains that tearing up wooden floors is still easier than tracking down the tools and logs, or getting the logs myself, and actually making them. You do save a fair amount of time.

If someone were to ask me why I would destroy someone's work? I would say that it's not serving a purpose. So if I find a means to give it a purpose, then why not? I don't see it as "destroying" their work, anymore than killing a domestic goose and cooking it would be "destroying" the work of the guy who hatched it. I'm using it. It's not doing anything just sitting there.

There are a few exceptions to this rule.

One, obviously being if it serves a purpose. If it's in a building (that has reasonable potential to be used), separating farmland, marking a road, or whatever else, then I don't touch it. Because it's serving a purpose. The boards I take are basically ones like the random wooden floors placed down in the forge, the bakery, or wherever else without rhyme or reason. Just because someone felt like it.

Two, I do not rip up projects that people are actively working on. If I see that someone is working on something, I leave it be. Mostly this is to avoid confrontation and being a dick.

And third, if someone voices any complaint, then I concede even if I disagree. Again, this is mostly to avoid confrontation.

But 98% of the time, no one gives a damn when i rip up boards, because they weren't doing anything in the first place. The other 2% of the time, I give the boards back and make my own or replace them.

I feel like it's usually fairly obvious which boards shouldn't be ripped up. And if they don't fall into that category, I say they're free game. Especially if following the above.

I still think wood flooring that's not serving a purpose is "the devil". Which, for me, just means annoying. It's just annoying clutter.

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-05-03 22:10:14)

futurebird · 2019-05-03 22:09:03

One more story: It occurs to me that I was in your exact position a few weeks ago. These twins were building an "arena" with a wood floor and It was so huge I thought it was waste (at first.)

I wanted to make some buckets. I had a bag full of string but they were sucking up all the butt logs for their massive project.

I brought the saw to their work area and started helping them cart and chop boards for about 5 min. Didn't say anything just helped. We did a ton. Then I say "need some for buckets too"

They let me have all the logs I wanted without question. Even help get more rope to make extras.

Then made clogs from the worn out mallets.

And I made friends. That road not taken is one you ought to look in to, spoonwood...

Last edited by futurebird (2019-05-03 22:10:41)

DestinyCall · 2019-05-03 22:30:50

FeignedSanity wrote:

I feel like it's usually fairly obvious which boards shouldn't be ripped up. And if they don't fall into that category, I say they're free game. Especially if following the above.
I still think wood flooring that's not serving a purpose is "the devil". Which, for me, just means annoying. It's just annoying clutter.

I feel similarly about boxes that are not being used for a specific purpose. If I need a cart and the village has a couple of badly placed boxes, I'm more inclined to repurpose those boxes rather than starting from scratch and farming milkweed. But I would never steal a box that someone just made or one that is being actively used for a specific purpose by someone else. That's just selfish. My time is no more valuable than the other person's, so I will do the extra work if I must.

I also have no problem with re-designing or moving stone roads. Way too many bad road builders in this game. You can make the town much more functional by properly organizing work areas and paths.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-05-03 22:31:17)

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 23:10:10

futurebird wrote:

We had a griefer kid in one of our towns, spammed faces as a baby, was rude, grabbed the adz and tore up any board he could find. In side buildings, berry paths, everything. Took like 15 to put it all back. She killed you to put a stop to your destruction and because she isn't a mind reader who would know what your issue was.

There was NO wood flooring on the berry farm. I also didn't make 15 buckets.

futurebird wrote:

She made the right call. You should have cut your own trees. Gotten your own logs. If trees were short then plant some and walk further.

Oh wow, you're serious? Trees take too long to grow. She did NOT make the right call. Her first mistake was making the wooden floors in the bakery in the first place. Her second was killing someone who was trying to make buckets.

futurebird wrote:

If you talked to her nicely she might have given you the boards... or not.

She does NOT own the boards. There is nothing for her to give.

futurebird wrote:

Lots of of people find that having the space defined is very useful. Makes it easier to organize and floors like that can serve as a blueprint for future buildings. (lets you see if the building will be large enough, is placed well in advance)

Blueprint for future buildings? That's even worse! Doors aren't exactly easy to open. The walls take up space. Each door consumes a rope. The springy doors use up iron. The stone wall buildings bust shovels and chisels. Trying to smith with a building a few tiles below it burns kindling increasing the time needed to get branches, and resources needed to get the kindling.

futurebird wrote:

It's not all about what will or won't keep you warm. A town without a floor in the bakery looks provisional, incomplete. And making floors is a nice project that makes kids want to stay.

lol. Players attracted by floors just aren't quality players. Maybe later stage towns end up worse, because players who realize the problems with buildings and wood flooring won't stick around. Buildings LOOK AWFUL. Wood flooring LOOKS AWFUL also.

futurebird wrote:

Your idea was suspect in value

It's surprising that you're serious, unless you're trolling. 4 buckets for rubber (rubber carts, pump, engine, rig, pulley drive mechanism all have uses... that's not even considering rubber balls or cars or planes.. or replacing rubber tires on carts). 2 buckets for the first deep well for the farm. A bucket for the bakery. That's already 7 buckets. A bucket for the milkweed farm (by the soil pits in the grassland). A bucket for trees. Nope, I did NOT make 9 buckets. That doesn't even cover deep wells or iron mining also. Or milks. Or sauerkraut.

futurebird wrote:

you communicated it poorly and choose the most annoying and antagonistic way to implement it. Sounds like the woman who stabbed you was keeping an eye on the town.

I'm pretty sure that my buckets got used later if the town survived. Her wood flooring just sat there doing nothing. She wasn't keeping an eye on anything. She was wasting time on a useless project.

futurebird wrote:

And I've said this before but... Again... it's more important to have people cheerfully engaged in projects they care about who stay for their whole lives than being a caustic bean counter over min/max perfection.

The bucket problem isn't about min/max perfection. You simply cannot advance in terms of the quality of a town without enough buckets.

futurebird wrote:

You made a nice productive person feel unwelcome, how do you calculate how many pips or births per fertile female THAT is worth?

She was not productive. No, I did make her feel unwelcome. She is resopnsible for her own emotions. I used the boards she had made. She could still get more butt logs. I could have gotten buckets in a few stations and if I had made a knife (which I might not have done) and I might have gotten started on rubber production.... if that's what I had done next. But, I never had the opportunity, because of the devil that is wood flooring and some player who doesn't care or doesn't realize the importance of a town needing multiple buckets to advance.

Your comment stands as perhaps the most convincing argument that milk is not overpowered. No family can get milk without a bucket. And without multiple buckets, a family won't maintain milk with a low number of natural water sources around.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 23:13:30

CatX wrote:

Wood is not iron.
Again, if this really is such a big problem, we need to ask Jason to either make floors cheaper, or trees less rare.

Yes, wood is not iron. But, precisely because of that I will point out the holdup with newcomen technology isn't iron so much, though of course you need the iron. The holdup generally lies in lack of rubber. And why doesn't the rubber get produced? Because the town has issues with a lack of buckets.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-03 23:17:40

DestinyCall wrote:

And we are a long way from a meta where building wooden floors is bad for the village even if you are a hardcore min-maxer who despises wasted effort.

FutureBird pointed out that wood flooring servers as a blueprint for future buildings. With that in mind, wood flooring around a bakery ends up bad for a village. And no, lack of buckets is not a min-max problem. Min-max is more like optimizing movement or making sure to always use your backpack or making sure you have your basket full with useful items, etc. It's not just upgrading carts to rubber carts or making rubber tires, or throwing buckets in decent spots for them, or getting and then milking cows.

CatX · 2019-05-04 00:27:06

Spoonwood wrote:

lol. Players attracted by floors just aren't quality players. Maybe later stage towns end up worse, because players who realize the problems with buildings and wood flooring won't stick around. Buildings LOOK AWFUL. Wood flooring LOOKS AWFUL also.

I would gently remind you that this is just your opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

And I disagree with you.

If there is no room for other people's work in the towns you are in, how about running a private server where nobody will make what you consider to be mistakes?

Remember that the first rule of the game should be to have fun. Since we're sharing a world, let's try not to lessen other people's fun.

That means, griefing is lame, and accusing other players of being "not quality players" when they're having fun is contrary to what the game should be about.

Spoonwood wrote:

The bucket problem isn't about min/max perfection. You simply cannot advance in terms of the quality of a town without enough buckets.

I'm all for more buckets. Cut down some trees and make more buckets. Nobody's stopping you.

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 04:27:17

CatX wrote:

I'm all for more buckets. Cut down some trees and make more buckets. Nobody's stopping you.

An even stranger thing to say. I was stabbed. I got stopped from making more buckets. I didn't plan on stabbing the player making the wood floors, though perhaps I should rethink that.

DestinyCall · 2019-05-04 04:32:02

The lesson should be "don't piss people off while making buckets" not "stab more people while making buckets".

Spoonwood · 2019-05-04 06:08:47

DestinyCall wrote:

The lesson should be "don't piss people off while making buckets" not "stab more people while making buckets".

Or maybe there is no lesson to learn other than the players who do the most useless things in the game sometimes come as the most likely to stab others. But still. They should NOT feel happy and satisfied with their projects. Their projects make things more difficult on their descendants than if they had done something more productive with their time... I don't know... like milking a cow. Oh... you need a bucket for that, not wood flooring.

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