Why there are no wars

Spoonwood · 2019-04-02 21:35:35

futurebird wrote:

I really like the burying idea but i think it should also require a grave.

I'm not sure how I feel exactly on the burying idea. I like it better than family locking. One thing though I do feel very strongly on:

The reincarnation via a dug grave should NOT require a flat rock for a grave. The problem lies in that if you want serious roadbuilding between towns, you want a substantial amount of flat rocks to go towards that. There do exist enough flat rocks in the game, but honestly after road building a lot on a low population server which almost surely has the largest road network in existence, I almost wish that flat rocks appeared in tundras, since getting flat rocks to connect towns takes a serious amount of time.

Amon · 2019-04-02 21:35:47

Spoonwood wrote:

jasonrohrer wrote:
-//-
No. The design is the computer program. How I react to it depends on me. If I felt sad at the end of one of my "lives", then it's because I chose to think something like "my character has her time coming to an end."

False, you are not the master of your own emotions, but the environment is.
Art, entertainment, music can coerce and manipulate our emotions.
A game designer can coerce us into emotion, sucessfully or not, intentionally or not.

Twisted · 2019-04-02 21:39:26

Spoonwood wrote:

futurebird wrote:
I really like the burying idea but i think it should also require a grave.
I'm not sure how I feel exactly on the burying idea. I like it better than family locking. One thing though I do feel very strongly on:
The reincarnation via a dug grave should NOT require a flat rock for a grave. The problem lies in that if you want serious roadbuilding between towns, you want a substantial amount of flat rocks to go towards that. There do exist enough flat rocks in the game, but honestly after road building a lot on a low population server which almost surely has the largest road network in existence, I almost wish that flat rocks appeared in tundras, since getting flat rocks to connect towns takes a serious amount of time.

We need different tombstone designs, the same way there's different walls. Same function, different look and different materials required.

The_Anabaptist · 2019-04-02 21:41:37

Jason, I do not understand your obsession with conflict or why you find it desirable.

Why do people / clans / nations fight?

1) mates / romantic entanglements
Not very applicable to this game.
1a) No fathers are needed. Give adult males a fertility age range and factor it into the existing heat & food calculations for having kids. Then there might be a reason to kill them off.
1b) There is no way to drag a fertile woman back to your camp, even if you do wage war against your neighbor. Figure out a way to throw one in a cart or onto the back of a horse.

2) Possessions
Short of clothing & a backpack and maybe a knife residing in the backpack, what else would you kill for right now? Clothing and backpacks aren't that uncommon, and once you have a knife of your own, why kill for another? Find more things for players to actually covet. I'm not going to kill somebody over food, cause moving slow while holding a murder weapon and gaining permanent curse markers from everyone else for that just isn't worth it.

3) Resources
Find a way to unevenly distribute resources so groups are forced to fight / trade for them. That means some resources either have to be rare, or unevenly distributed across the map.

4) Religion
What have you coded that pertains to religion? Your players are doing a better job of creating religions than you are.

5) War for the sake of War
Our options for killing are knives and bows. Right now both are little more than stand next to your target and right click. War has armor, war has ranged combat, war has pikemen and calvary charges, etc. You don't have wars because you haven't developed the instruments of war.

My name should be indication enough that I don't want anything to do with war, and frankly your insistence on it disgusts me.

The_Anabaptist

Amon · 2019-04-02 21:42:12

We used to have native stone graves, got nice stone cutters in the mediteran, but they did not last forever.
They aged.

Now its all marble..a marvle to look at, itll last fo sure, but its also foreign. Families would try to one up eachother nowdays.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-02 21:44:23)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-02 21:43:17

Amon wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
jasonrohrer wrote:
-//-
No. The design is the computer program. How I react to it depends on me. If I felt sad at the end of one of my "lives", then it's because I chose to think something like "my character has her time coming to an end."
False, you are not the master of your own emotions, but the environment is.
Art, entertainment, music can coerce and manipulate our emotions.
A game designer can coerce us into emotion, sucessfully or not, intentionally or not.

No, they do not coerce emotions. It should come as apparent that people have different reactions to artistic pieces. Why? Because people have different thoughts. Heck, even the same person will have a different emotional reaction to a piece at different times, because of different thoughts/cognitive states. Thus, no artistic work coerces emotions.

Amon · 2019-04-02 21:49:20

Please. Spoonwood.
There is the universal language of music as the most static emotion coercer.
I as a person of the craft know the theory behind why and how such feelings happen, how to simulate, how to build tension. You know people actually created academic courses and even vocational classes about that? Sure emotions vary, but within a margin or duality, but it is a visible pattern of reaction. Drawings games movies are a more complex language than music, less primal, less basal.
But still they put us on emotional rolercoasters. Dissapoint, sadness, tension.

Last edited by Amon (2019-04-02 21:50:20)

Booklat1 · 2019-04-02 22:38:19

The_Anabaptist wrote:

? Your players are doing a better job of creating religions than you are.

The_Anabaptist

which is working as intended

FeignedSanity · 2019-04-02 23:24:42

Whew, what a time I picked to come back to the game. Things are getting VERY interesting. I tend not to post on forums because people rarely read what you wrote, they only read what they want it to say, but I have a suggestion to this whole "burying to come back to your village" thing that Jason seems to have taken an interest in.

I propose a counter mechanic to the burial process. Someone dies, and their bones decay. If they are buried (probably with a grave/tombstone of some sort or a ritual) they can come back. However, what if want to banish someone from ever returning? Currently, I guess murder would be the means to this end, but innocent people get killed, I believe, frequently enough for this to be looked at. Besides, it puts the decision solely on one person, not the family.

I would like to suggest possibly replacing the banning method with bone burning. I feel like this adds an interesting mechanic to the banning process. Let's say, someone is trying to hand off a knife and accidentally stabs someone. Everyone recognizes it was an accident, but there are no medicinal supplies. Someone walks in from off screen, jumps to conclusions and stabs the "murderer". Boom, two people facing the ban. If everyone agrees they were innocent, then they give them the burial. Maybe the village decides that the second stabber is a deviant and decides to burn his bones, but bury the guy who accidentally stabbed when trading off.

This way, the family is able to use their knowledge to make their own choice on who should be reborn or not, and leaving less up to happenstance. That, and I love the idea of burning the bones of the mass murderer after you've hunted him down. You can bury all his victims, then burn the bastards bones. Of course, you can apply this to many different scenarios, but I feel like this mechanic would really add a lot. So I decided to throw it out there and see if it gets ripped to shreds or just dismissed.

Edit: Possibly make the process not be instant. Maybe make the bones burn for 10 seconds before they're turned to ash or something. That way you don't have some guy immediately burning bones and people could remove them.

I am aware that this idea has problems that would need to be worked out, but I feel like it could have merit. Maybe the idea seems redundant. If you don't want someone to come back, just don't bury the bones. But maybe this would be a means to keep someone from being "that guy" and burying the griefer.

Last edited by FeignedSanity (2019-04-02 23:33:13)

antking:]# · 2019-04-02 23:30:42

we really need a way to identify groups... groups divide and make unions and then states! their will always come conflict with different groups.
and i'm still holding to the belief that food should be harder to grow the more times its grown! to encourage people to spread out!

we also need a smaller map

Last edited by antking:]# (2019-04-02 23:31:06)

Spoonwood · 2019-04-02 23:40:44

Amon wrote:

Please. Spoonwood.
There is the universal language of music as the most static emotion coercer.
I as a person of the craft know the theory behind why and how such feelings happen, how to simulate, how to build tension. You know people actually created academic courses and even vocational classes about that? Sure emotions vary, but within a margin or duality, but it is a visible pattern of reaction. Drawings games movies are a more complex language than music, less primal, less basal.
But still they put us on emotional rolercoasters. Dissapoint, sadness, tension.

No, music is not a universal language. Nor does it consist of a static emotion coercer. Music consists of a collection of sounds which have to get interpreted by a brain to have any meaning whatsoever. Psychology does NOT support emotions getting coerced. One of the most successful forms of psychotherapy actually teaches that emotions cannot get coerced, since thoughts (or beliefs) precede emotions in it's model.

antking:]# · 2019-04-02 23:53:40

Spoonwood wrote:

Amon wrote:
Please. Spoonwood.
There is the universal language of music as the most static emotion coercer.
I as a person of the craft know the theory behind why and how such feelings happen, how to simulate, how to build tension. You know people actually created academic courses and even vocational classes about that? Sure emotions vary, but within a margin or duality, but it is a visible pattern of reaction. Drawings games movies are a more complex language than music, less primal, less basal.
But still they put us on emotional rolercoasters. Dissapoint, sadness, tension.
No, music is not a universal language. Nor does it consist of a static emotion coercer. Music consists of a collection of sounds which have to get interpreted by a brain to have any meaning whatsoever. Psychology does NOT support emotions getting coerced. One of the most successful forms of psychotherapy actually teaches that emotions cannot get coerced, since thoughts (or beliefs) precede emotions in it's model.

wow spoon wood you really are a wooden spoon! don't you ever feel when you hear emotional music.... or are a blank canvas with out a streak of color?

Booklat1 · 2019-04-03 00:00:18

Spoonwood wrote:

Amon wrote:
Please. Spoonwood.
There is the universal language of music as the most static emotion coercer.
I as a person of the craft know the theory behind why and how such feelings happen, how to simulate, how to build tension. You know people actually created academic courses and even vocational classes about that? Sure emotions vary, but within a margin or duality, but it is a visible pattern of reaction. Drawings games movies are a more complex language than music, less primal, less basal.
But still they put us on emotional rolercoasters. Dissapoint, sadness, tension.
No, music is not a universal language. Nor does it consist of a static emotion coercer. Music consists of a collection of sounds which have to get interpreted by a brain to have any meaning whatsoever. Psychology does NOT support emotions getting coerced. One of the most successful forms of psychotherapy actually teaches that emotions cannot get coerced, since thoughts (or beliefs) precede emotions in it's model.

Yet in a given cultural background you see scales/chords/progressions producing the same emotional responses in the majority of people. Human brains are btw not only the result of our social/psychological developments, but a construct originated from evolutionary processes, suffering selection, keeping characteristics and becoming what it is now. Brains may differ in individuals as does everything in biology but patterns exist in them which allow sounds to produce a sensory response which in turn triggers emotional response.

Tell, can you choose not to be sad if people you love are brutally murdered?

antking:]# · 2019-04-03 00:06:59

the hole point of music is to hit emotional cords... if they didn't we wouldn't listen to them.... and booklat is right you can see this in any community even in church! where the music is for praise and is meant to be sung by a great many voices to give the words power unlike Mikel Jackson

BladeWoods · 2019-04-03 02:00:44

There's very little sense of property in this game. In order for something to be your property, you need to be able to stop others from taking it. Since there's no inventory like in Rust, this only easily applies to your clothes and backpack, but if you want to own anything else you'd need your own house and a key to the door. This is possible despite being very expensive, but even if I was born to a mother who gave me a key to a house, what would I do with the house? What would I put in the house? Why would I want the house? I'm not sure.

Booklat1 · 2019-04-03 02:08:13

BladeWoods wrote:

There's very little sense of property in this game. In order for something to be your property, you need to be able to stop others from taking it. Since there's no inventory like in Rust, this only easily applies to your clothes and backpack, but if you want to own anything else you'd need your own house and a key to the door. This is possible despite being very expensive, but even if I was born to a mother who gave me a key to a house, what would I do with the house? What would I put in the house? Why would I want the house? I'm not sure.

Very relevant point too. Bags and knives are good example of things that add material value to our lives

jasonrohrer · 2019-04-03 05:18:37

Yeah, I think that if burial encourages people to come back, pissing on the bones could just as easily ban someone from the family.

But as we saw before the advent of curses, it's just not enough. And it's too unilateral. It just takes one person to piss on the bones, or one person to bury you. This is exploitable by griefing partners (who bury each other), and griefers generally, who piss on bones whenever they get the chance.

The nice thing about the curse system is that it requires some consensus before it actually affects someone, making it very hard for a griefer to exploit in either direction (the number of truly innocent people who ended up in Donkeytown is pretty much 0, except for streamers like Twisted who have been targeted).

So if we just think of burial by itself, there are still some problems. Obviously, it would take time to do, but the dead player is probably already hitting the "get reborn" button. Seems like this would encourage chain-suicide, while they eagerly wait for burial and try to return to their family. Unless they get a 1 hour ban no matter what, and the burial just ensures that they will come back "later" at some point.

MultiLife · 2019-04-03 05:24:34

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is exploitable by griefing partners (who bury each other)...

Well if they're twins or triplets they'd die to Old age at the same time, so no burying each other unless they don't twin or don't have to wait to 60.

Tarr · 2019-04-03 06:01:53

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is exploitable by griefing partners (who bury each other)...

Yes but griefing partners are going to abuse any sort of mechanic you put in place anyways.

They can:
-Use all of their curses on one person jumping their lifetime score up four points in a quad group. Sure that might not seem too bad but when they all get together and start organizing like we're seeing at this point innocent people can be forced into donkey town (Twisted for example.)
-Multiple sets of hands means they can do all sorts of troubling things. Stab one? His buddy heals him unless you've specifically dirtied or hidden all the pads. No pads? His buddy just stabs you on cooldown and suicides to avoid dealing with any of the backlash. This isn't even mentioning how fast multiple people can hide things.
-Abuse the fact that two, three, or four people can't all be cursed to donkey town by one village. Where as a coordinated group can solo focus down a player a town cannot force a whole group to donkey town due to lack of members, curse token availability, or unwillingness to give up curse tokens.

There's other things they can do but the griefing community is too dumb to use the game mechanics to their advantage and I'm not willing to explain out loud how to abuse the game to help them.

My point is I think it's silly to limit what the good players could do to rid themselves of the trolls when the trolls are already the people with all the advantages in in the first place.

Whatever · 2019-04-03 06:23:44

jasonrohrer wrote:

Obviously, it would take time to do, but the dead player is probably already hitting the "get reborn" button. Seems like this would encourage chain-suicide, while they eagerly wait for burial and try to return to their family.

It could be so that you have to wait X minutes + the minutes until you would reach old age, for example:

- If you die at the age of 52, you need to wait 8 minutes + 5 minutes = 13 minutes until you can get reborn into your lineage again.
- If you die at the age of 60, you can get reborn in 5 minutes again.
- If you die at the age of 30, you need to wait 30 minutes + 5 minutes = 35 minutes until you can get reborn into your lineage again.
(real life time, not in game time, you dont need to play to spend this time)

The exact details of this idea can be changed. Maybe the minimum time you need to wait should be longer than 5 min or maybe shorter.

Whatever · 2019-04-03 06:28:36

jasonrohrer wrote:

This is exploitable by griefing partners (who bury each other)...
The nice thing about the curse system is that it requires some consensus before it actually affects someone, making it very hard for a griefer to exploit in either direction (the number of truly innocent people who ended up in Donkeytown is pretty much 0, except for streamers like Twisted who have been targeted).

Curses could also play a role in the reborn process. You can only get reborn if you dont have X amount of curses that come from your lineage.
This would even protect streamers, because the curses have to come from your lineage.

Last edited by Whatever (2019-04-03 06:31:09)

ryanb · 2019-04-03 06:42:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, I think that if burial encourages people to come back, pissing on the bones could just as easily ban someone from the family.
But as we saw before the advent of curses, it's just not enough. And it's too unilateral. It just takes one person to piss on the bones, or one person to bury you. This is exploitable by griefing partners (who bury each other), and griefers generally, who piss on bones whenever they get the chance.
The nice thing about the curse system is that it requires some consensus before it actually affects someone, making it very hard for a griefer to exploit in either direction (the number of truly innocent people who ended up in Donkeytown is pretty much 0, except for streamers like Twisted who have been targeted).

So if we just think of burial by itself, there are still some problems. Obviously, it would take time to do, but the dead player is probably already hitting the "get reborn" button. Seems like this would encourage chain-suicide, while they eagerly wait for burial and try to return to their family. Unless they get a 1 hour ban no matter what, and the burial just ensures that they will come back "later" at some point.

What if the tombstone is what allows them to come back? This can easily be added and removed so a griefer cannot permanently force it one way or another.

Chain suicides are the biggest drawback I can think of with this system. If there was some way for players to choose to be reborn in their last lineage then it would solve this.

Whatever · 2019-04-03 06:54:24

ryanb wrote:

What if the tombstone is what allows them to come back? This can easily be added and removed so a griefer cannot permanently force it one way or another.

Griefers could take away all the tombstones and hide them somewhere, also what if griefing partners burry themselves far away. But how do they even burry each other? If there are 2 griefers, one could burry another one but they cant burry both.

ruanna · 2019-04-03 07:24:56

Some issues I have with this scenario Jason wants

- you mentioned caring about your 3 children - you only have 3. I have had hundreds of kids across my many ohol lives - of course I stop caring about them, because who can keep track of hundreds of kids? Who can remember the difference between kid 301 and kid 302?
- meta is kids stand on a fire. ironically this decreases the bond between mother and child. previously you had to carry your child around with you as you continue your job, child sees what mother is doing, etc. I would tell them what im doing, say help mum with x when you grow up. now you drop your kid on the fire and run off. most of the time mothers on the fire don't even interact with the kids.
- after the kid runs off at 3 to start their life you rarely see them again. you might not recognise them in the crowd of people, unless you specifically go looking for them. and why would you look for them, when you never had any conversation after you named them and dropped them on a fire?
- the base zoom is a problem. with the base game zoom it's like living in a bubble. with the zoom mod you see and hear much more of life in the village.

CatX · 2019-04-03 08:55:44

ruanna wrote:

- you mentioned caring about your 3 children - you only have 3. I have had hundreds of kids across my many ohol lives - of course I stop caring about them, because who can keep track of hundreds of kids?

Also, there are so many baby suicides.

Fewer kids would be great.

Perhaps if being born itself was more of a boon, something to value. Perhaps if we were stuck on the log-in screen for a while, with the message: "Searching for available mother", we would treasure life more.

Perhaps if spawning in as an Eve was something you had to earn through your other lives, so there was a reason to stay in a town and help.

Perhaps if mothers were able to decide when to have a baby, they'd care more about the ones they got.

And perhaps, if you could have a say in where you're born, like a checkbox for "I prefer cities" or "I prefer wilderness" that would increase the chance of said life, there would be fewer suicides and thus fewer anonymous babies for mothers to worry about.

Also, I agree with Ruanna's other points.

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