Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-15 16:18:17

NEW UPDATE EDIT : Shallow and Deep Wells now refill after being run dry, thanks to the new update. Including what was in the previous post below. Thanks for Update! Love It!

Happy Farming!

Shallow Wells and Deep Wells DO NOT REFILL WHEN EMPTY. They are a finite supply of water.

A Well whether shallow or deep will refill at the same rate as a pond BUT, IF AND ONLY IF YOU DO NOT DRAIN IT TO EMPTY.
There is no current way to track how much water is left in a well therefore if you have no knowledge of how many uses it has or hasn't DO NOT USE IT, once it is dry it is useless, cannot refill itself and cannot be refilled.

USES

Shallow Well has 7 uses.
Deep Well has 14.

Will Update this thread if wells are changed in an upcoming patch.
Happy Farming Civs.

Last edited by ShadowsSoldier (2018-03-17 00:46:49)

Tebe · 2018-03-15 16:23:16

ShadowsSoldier wrote:

Shallow Wells and Deep Wells DO NOT REFILL WHEN EMPTY. They are a finite supply of water.
A Well whether shallow or deep will refill at the same rate as a pond BUT, IF AND ONLY IF YOU DO NOT DRAIN IT TO EMPTY.
There is no current way to track how much water is left in a well therefore if you have no knowledge of how many uses it has or hasn't DO NOT USE IT, once it is dry it is useless, cannot refill itself and cannot be refilled.
USES
Shallow Well has 7 uses.
Deep Well has 14.

Will Update this thread if wells are changed in an upcoming patch.
Happy Farming Civs.

True, this suggests that the only safe way to draw from a well would be to give it a single fill first.

But if you're using the well because you need water, and you already a full bowl, and you don't gain by drawing... I mean, you see where this is going.

You'd have to have someone watching the well around the clock and keeping stock, and get it right. I really suspect this is an oversight, but we'll find out soon enough from the man himself!

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-15 16:31:44

There is a simple way around it tbh, build your Well's next to ponds and make sure you take from ponds first then the Well, and never take from the well when the ponds are at 1 use. You are using the well as a measuring device.

Yes you are not using the well to its fullest, however you are basically installing another pond for you to draw water from.

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-15 16:34:18

If you use the method above, you have a 2 use buffer as to not dry a shallow well, and a 10 use buffer on the deep well.

Sheph · 2018-03-15 16:39:14

There IS a way to know exactly how much water is in a well. Build a Cistern next to it and fill the well up from the Cistern. When you can't put any more water in it, you KNOW it's full. It's the only way to know for 100% certain the value of the water in the well. You are then able to use 13 water for whatever you need. Do this every time the well leaves your screen. Frankly, it's not worth it when there are ponds nearby, but if you are in a low water area, it could be a strategy.

Tebe · 2018-03-15 16:39:21

ShadowsSoldier wrote:

If you use the method above, you have a 2 use buffer as to not dry a shallow well, and a 10 use buffer on the deep well.

that's a good start, but it's unwieldy if nobody's keeping track (other villagers may be draining the well without topping up), and there's also no indicator at all when the well is down to one use. It's either "well" or "dry well". It's either an oversight or it's just plain mean!

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-15 16:41:48

Yes, TBH wells are a bust right now, until there is a method to refill from DRY and or keep track of the uses left, there's no point lol. Find a spot with lots of ponds and get to farming lol.

Uncle Gus · 2018-03-15 19:07:01

I'm pretty sure the intended use of the well is that we should never draw from a shallow well, only a deep one.

InSpace · 2018-03-15 20:27:11

Always fill up a well before taking from it, and then leave 2-3 bowls of water in it.

Uncle Gus · 2018-03-15 21:25:38

You can't fill up a well.

Potjeh · 2018-03-16 00:08:41

Wells should be quite better than ponds seeing they involve a decent tech level, but on the flipside maintenance of wells should require a certain tech level so they're not a one-off tech investment. Maybe something like well walls collapse when you drain it dry, and you need to reinforce them with iron bars or lime and stones or something.

ShadowsSoldier · 2018-03-16 00:47:25

Id be fine with that, but right now having them basically worthless once someone drains it dry, its incredibly taxing. I like the idea of "repairs".

jasonrohrer · 2018-03-16 04:11:22

Well, part of my thinking here is to create dramatic "turning point" moments in the life of a town, and also have people develop complex social systems around these things.

The thinking in this thread, about how to actually use wells, is what I'm after.

I don't want to make it foolproof, or easy to recover from a mistake with one weird trick. I want everything to be dangerous. I want heavy communication and coordination to be necessary every step of the way.

After all, draining the well over and over again and doing some trick to fix it repeatedly isn't interesting. That's just busy work.

Having one guy in the village who's in charge of the well IS interesting.

And the moment when he messes up and the well runs dry is a dramatic turning point for the town.

"Dag gummit, the well done gone dry! We're up a crick without a paddle now!"

That said, I may add some visual "tick marks" on the deep well... people could be marking the wood when they take water out.

jasonrohrer · 2018-03-16 04:27:26

So I'm sitting in the editor about to add tick-marks on the well stanchion or at least water in the bucket to show you when the well is about to go dry.

But that's simply too simple of a thing to teach. "Don't take from the well unless you see water in the bucket." Or "count the tick marks and stop taking when you see 13."

That leaves no room for player creativity. It's just one more arbitrary rule to learn---a rule that I invent, not a rule that YOU invent.

What's the BEST way to track water in a well, given what you have available?

What about with two piles of stones? When you take from a well, you move one stone to the other pile. When all the stones are in the second pile, we stop and wait half a generation for the well to refill. Then someone is in charge of moving the stones back to indicate that the well is safe again.

Maybe there are other ways to track this or mark the well as "risky" to take from. Maybe building a cistern next to the well is the way to go. Maybe building a well next to a pond. However you do it, you need to teach it to your children so they can continue.

And that's culture!

And that's what I want to see emerge in the game.

"Our village had this really cool way of making sure the well never ran dry. In my next life, I tried to teach the method to my new village, but they wouldn't listen to me. They were doing it a different way."

jasonrohrer · 2018-03-16 04:28:29

Also, just so that it doesn't waste stones forever, I'll make them recover in... 10 hours or something? How does that sound?

Uncle Gus · 2018-03-16 04:33:01

Why not just "only draw water from a deep well"?

Edit: Duh, because they are two different structures, with the difference being a stanchion kit.

Last edited by Uncle Gus (2018-03-16 04:46:46)

Left4twenty · 2018-03-16 04:35:01

jasonrohrer wrote:

What about with two piles of stones? When you take from a well, you move one stone to the other pile. When all the stones are in the second pile, we stop and wait half a generation for the well to refill. Then someone is in charge of moving the stones back to indicate that the well is safe again.
Maybe there are other ways to track this or mark the well as "risky" to take from. Maybe building a cistern next to the well is the way to go. Maybe building a well next to a pond. However you do it, you need to teach it to your children so they can continue.

YES! All those things, only one person is allowed to draw from the well though, they put it in the cistern and are in charge of moving and tracking the rock measurement system. It's their job to pass this
knowledge and system to the next well master as well
Realized this morning this system is easily trollable. One troll simply has to move one rock from your "taken"water like and move it to the "available" water pile

Last edited by Left4twenty (2018-03-16 12:40:05)

Uncle Gus · 2018-03-16 04:53:12

Okay, better idea. It takes five minutes for the well to replenish one level. It takes ten minutes for a wild berry bush to grow one berry. So build a well next to a berry bush. Every time a berry grows, take two water.

Hans Lemurson · 2018-03-16 06:55:56

jasonrohrer wrote:

So I'm sitting in the editor about to add tick-marks on the well stanchion or at least water in the bucket to show you when the well is about to go dry.
But that's simply too simple of a thing to teach. "Don't take from the well unless you see water in the bucket." Or "count the tick marks and stop taking when you see 13."
That leaves no room for player creativity.
...
And that's culture!
And that's what I want to see emerge in the game.
"Our village had this really cool way of making sure the well never ran dry. In my next life, I tried to teach the method to my new village, but they wouldn't listen to me. They were doing it a different way."

I am continually impressed by the faith in humanity that you so regularly display. A real optimist at heart.

yvanhooe · 2018-03-16 09:00:21

jasonrohrer wrote:

And that's culture!
And that's what I want to see emerge in the game.

This game gives an incentive to develop a culture, but puts a lot of hindrance in the way. As a result, the culture rather emerges on the forums. Transmitting things in the game right now is super hard. Can't talk unless you are older, some ages limited to one line of text, speech limited to one or 2 squares away, no way to put signs or instructions down.

Hopefully with enough settlements we should grow to a point where we can spend less time on survival and more on culture. When we get wooden-floored cities, clothes for everyone, well-tended milkweed fields, we may be able to spend more time talking.

Hans Lemurson · 2018-03-16 09:44:22

It's basically a question of whether forum-taught people can create enough structure in the world to allow the noobs to function.

I foresee many naked carrot-farmers starving next to bone-dry wells.

stormitwa · 2018-03-16 10:22:07

What about being able to craft a measuring stick out of a number of yew shafts to measure the well depth. It's a practical way to do something in a game where one cant simply prek down the well to see how much water is left.

Potjeh · 2018-03-16 13:25:30

jasonrohrer wrote:

So I'm sitting in the editor about to add tick-marks on the well stanchion or at least water in the bucket to show you when the well is about to go dry.
But that's simply too simple of a thing to teach. "Don't take from the well unless you see water in the bucket." Or "count the tick marks and stop taking when you see 13."
That leaves no room for player creativity. It's just one more arbitrary rule to learn---a rule that I invent, not a rule that YOU invent.
What's the BEST way to track water in a well, given what you have available?
What about with two piles of stones? When you take from a well, you move one stone to the other pile. When all the stones are in the second pile, we stop and wait half a generation for the well to refill. Then someone is in charge of moving the stones back to indicate that the well is safe again.
Maybe there are other ways to track this or mark the well as "risky" to take from. Maybe building a cistern next to the well is the way to go. Maybe building a well next to a pond. However you do it, you need to teach it to your children so they can continue.
And that's culture!
And that's what I want to see emerge in the game.
"Our village had this really cool way of making sure the well never ran dry. In my next life, I tried to teach the method to my new village, but they wouldn't listen to me. They were doing it a different way."

Between heavy limitations on speech, wonky camera and time being too precious for people to stand still and listen, communicating something like that is virtually impossible in the game. Having a guy responsible for well spending his whole life just sitting there repeating "Don't take water from well" might work, but a life like that isn't fun gameplay so nobody wants to do that. IMO much better design is opportunities for individuals to save the society and feel like a hero, something like bringing carrot seeds just as the town farm runs out. Discrete events like that just feel more impactful and memorable. So yeah, I'd much prefer a complex and expensive recipe for well repair to having to have well sitters. Which we won't, because wells are strictly inferior to ponds so making them is a waste of time, resources and space. They need to regenerate faster than ponds to be worth considering. But even if they did regenerate faster tending the well would be very inefficient use of time, by the time you move all that measuring shit you could've brought back more water from ponds with a pouch filled cart.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-03-16 13:41:58)

Dagar · 2018-03-16 15:57:37

New player here, but I disagree with Jason here. If it is true in the real world that you can tell in which state a thing is (here the well), it should be in game. In reality you can tell when a well is about to go dry (and btw., taking the last available water from it does not keep it from refilling from ground water afaik). Just listen if the bucket dropped hits something solid or splashes.
I mean, you did the same thing with ponds; they give us a visual clue as to how full they are. Even if I have never actively emptied a pond, I get a feeling that a pond with 1 or 2 charges left is better left alone until later, just from seeing the image. Why would you not make wells work the same way?

Left4twenty · 2018-03-16 15:58:46

What if the well is deep and you can't see the bottom. Dropibg a stone makes nearly indistuinguisable splashes until the water is basically at the bottom

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#1 2018-03-15 16:18:17

Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#2 2018-03-15 16:23:16

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#3 2018-03-15 16:31:44

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#4 2018-03-15 16:34:18

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#5 2018-03-15 16:39:14

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#6 2018-03-15 16:39:21

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#7 2018-03-15 16:41:48

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#8 2018-03-15 19:07:01

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#9 2018-03-15 20:27:11

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#10 2018-03-15 21:25:38

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#11 2018-03-16 00:08:41

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#12 2018-03-16 00:47:25

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#13 2018-03-16 04:11:22

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#14 2018-03-16 04:27:26

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#15 2018-03-16 04:28:29

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#16 2018-03-16 04:33:01

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#17 2018-03-16 04:35:01

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#18 2018-03-16 04:53:12

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#19 2018-03-16 06:55:56

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#20 2018-03-16 09:00:21

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#21 2018-03-16 09:44:22

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#22 2018-03-16 10:22:07

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#23 2018-03-16 13:25:30

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#24 2018-03-16 15:57:37

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

#25 2018-03-16 15:58:46

Re: Shallow Wells and Deep Wells The Truth. EDIT

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