Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

CrazyEddie · 2019-03-03 20:04:31

Can't decide whether Spoonwood or pein is more tiresome to read

pein · 2019-03-03 23:30:58

CrazyEddie wrote:

Can't decide whether Spoonwood or pein is more tiresome to read

you cant even decide on other things either so it not so surprising

if you don't like it don't read it
that's what i did with your 500 posts which wouldn't of made me any smarter

Spoonwood · 2019-03-04 12:49:47

booklat1 wrote:

Do we all understand that resource-wise raw foods are very unlikely to pay off?

I'm not sure how you're assessing 'very unlikely'. Wild berries, even in raw form, are very likely to pay off. I talked to someone yesterday who suggested building stone roads towards wild berry bush sources, and said he managed to have his children do it once as an Eve (I think it was pre-update though and I would guess they were living by a desert).

Booklat1 wrote:

Again, math evidence saying resource-wise it doesnt pay off. Fertily is one argument for yum, not for bad yum.

No, because there's no way to convert soil, water, and kindling cost into pips. Only in the case where there is no soil, water, or kindling cost can we know which pays off. And that's raw wild berries.

booklat1 wrote:

Also, its absurd that you ask me to talk about fertility and completely denies betame's beautiful cost analysis (and the conclusions that result from it)

Again, sure does seem like there's incentive to mislead people here, because of the fertility bonus and families being in competition for children.

booklat1 wrote:

if suggesting potatoes are good didnt already.

Laughs. Dismissing potatoes is another clue. It isn't like iron spent on a newcomen multipurpose engine or oil rig will actually directly contribute to fertility or the food supply, while potatoes will. Sauerkraut vs. potatoes would be a more interesting potatoes. But, those who disdain potatoes don't keep in mind that you and others can eat food, while you and others can't eat iron.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-04 13:56:30

DestinyCall wrote:

It gets really annoying when I have to keep repeating myself. You didn't count the cost of using wheat or the value of a meat-only pie. Compared with the available alternatives, berry pies are wasteful. There is no getting around this. It is plain to see when you look at the numbers.

It's not at all plain to see, because you don't know what a player has eaten previously. And you don't know whether or not fertility makes for a concern.

DestinyCall wrote:

The difference between a bowl of berries and a berry pie is only 18 pips. But to make a berry pie, you must also use 1/4 of a bowl of dough. If you made bread with that bowl of dough instead of pies, it would provide 64 pips. A quarter of 64 is 16 pips. That means that you only gain 2 pips per pie when you make berry pies, instead of eating the raw ingredients separately. That is really crappy.

It's still an increase. So, all cooked foods increase their value. But also, that's not the total bar increase to the player. Yum makes that 2 pips per pie probably higher than 2 bars per pie, given that berries still lie around. And the fertility gain also makes it more worth it. Additionally, wild berries regenerate while wild wheat doesn't respawn. So, wild berry based berry pie has advantages over wild based bread if both were produced in bulk.

DestinyCall wrote:

Using a whole bowl of berries as a pie filling is very costly.

Laughs. What?! For all we know the cost of a whole bowl of berries is zero water, zero soil, and zero kindling. How is that 'very costly'?

DestinyCall wrote:

It would be better to make a different kind of pie using that wheat and leave the berries on the bush to be eaten raw or used for composting. Doing so would allow you to feed more people with the same number of cooking ingredients OR produce more dirt to grow vital crops, like wheat, corn, squash, carrots, milkweed or even gooseberry bushes.

You didn't account for yum, so you don't know any such thing.

DestinyCall wrote:

This high cost is present in all berry pies, but it gets even worse when you look at berry rabbit pie and berry carrot rabbit pie.

I mean you said all. That sentence is simply not true. Such massive exaggeration and forgetting about wild bushes which I'd think most players know about strikes me as suspicious.

DestinyCall wrote:

This is because the rabbit pie is already so good and the berry pies are not good enough to make up for the high-cost berry filling. When you ADD berries to the pie, you do not get back the full value of the berries you just put in. A berry rabbit pie is worth 72 pips. After you subtract the food value of a rabbit pie, you get left with only 16 pips. Then when you subtract the food value of a bowl of berries you are left with -14 pips. So you just LOST that many food pips by choosing to make a berry rabbit pie instead of a plain rabbit pie and keeping the bowl of berries separate.

No, because you haven't accounted for yum. This is after all a thread that originally concerned yum, and I've brought it up repeatedly. So, no, it was not the case *that many* bars got lost. Thus again, your last statement is simply not true.

DestinyCall wrote:

Put another way, a rabbit pie and bowl of berries is worth 86 pips, but a berry rabbit pie is only worth 72 pips. The difference between them is the amount of food you LOSE when you decide to make the berry rabbit pie instead of just making a rabbit pie.

No. No food gets lost by cooking anything. You've selected rabbit pie to compare to. I do find that interesting and you have interesting numbers. But it's kind of selective. Why didn't you choose berry pie and a cooked rabbit to compare to instead?

DestinyCall wrote:

Combining these foods together is a BAD idea, since you end up with less food than if you do not combine them together.

No. Just talking about total food as you insist on doing is simply inadequate. It doesn't account for yum, nor does it account for the fertility bonus that comes from yum.

DestinyCall wrote:

The berry carrot rabbit pie is an even WORSE pie. You lose the value of the half the bowl of berries and pretty much the entire carrot.

Oh really? Even more selective calculations? You could compare to berry pie, a carrot, and a cooked rabbit. Or carrot pie, a cooked rabbit, and a bowl of berries. Or a bowl of berries and carrot rabbit pie. Or a berry rabbit pie and a carrot?

DestinyCall wrote:

You actually lose even more than the base math suggests, because even though the berry carrot rabbit pie has a pip value of 20 per bite, you can only really gain 19 pips max from any food.

I mean when you talk about such a pie, it's not even clear what you're comparing it to as the baseline. Or at least any such comparison assumes quite a bit.

DestinyCall wrote:

It isn't possible to eat when your food bar is empty, so a 20 pip food really gives you 19 or less pips.

Actually, the latest update (which happened before you wrote your latest message) makes it so you can eat at 0 pips. You can't eat at -1 pips though.

DestinyCall wrote:

This means that the berry carrot rabbit pie (20 pip/bite) and the berry rabbit pie (18 pip/bite) have effectively the same food value in practice.

No, it most certainly does not even assuming that people eat them both at 4 pips on their pip bar. Again, yum. It comes as very suspicious that you continue to say things which completely ignore yum at this point in time. Look, let's say you have 18 yum, always eat at 4 pips left, and you just ate berry rabbit pie and haven't eaten berry carrot rabbit pie? What is the value of another berry rabbit pie? A full bar of pips. What is the value of berry carrot rabbit pie? A full bar of pips PLUS 19 more bars.

DestinyCall wrote:

But the three-ingredient pie costs significantly more to produce and, therefore, involves even higher waste. This does not even get into the dirt/water/iron/labor costs of producing extra berries and carrots for pies.

Sure, it doesn't account for the dirt/water/iron costs. All of those might be zero or the berries and carrots.

DestinyCall wrote:

Now imagine that you decide to mass-produce a bunch of berry pies to help feed a hungry village. Do you see the problem yet?

No. I have no idea about the berry situation or their eating habits. Neither do you or anyone else a priori.

DestinyCall wrote:

You might think that you are helping the hunger problem, but you are actually burning through limited food resources much faster than you should be. A very small number of these pies could be produced for yummers in a stable village without causing any significant harm. But large-scale production of berry pies is irresponsible. It should not be encouraged, yum or no yum.

No. It is irresponsible to discourage the cooking of more yummy foods, especially for later generation settelements. That means the fertility of your family will be lower. And lack of fertile girls comes as what kills off settlements.

DestinyCall wrote:

Rabbit carrot pies are quite tasty and carrot pies are a net food gain, but carrots have important non-culinary uses which take priority over vanity foods. Most villages are perpetually low on carrots, so diverting carrots into pie-production unnecessarily is not a great idea.

Oh please. Are all of the soil pits completely empty and dug up? Is someone refusing to use a horsecart with baskets to get soil? Compost takes 4 minutes to get going. Running soil with a horsecart (better with a horsecart and a stone road) can outdo that soil pile. Also, are people refusing to get carrots from the wild? Because those can get domesticated using a clay bowl if needed, but I think they function the same as other carrots.

Also, so what if they are low on carrots? Grow more carrots then. Why would someone just divert those carrots into pie-production? Grow more carrots.

DestinyCall wrote:

In the vast majority of small to medium sized settlements, it will not work. You won't have time to finish the project in one lifetime and other people are unlikely to maintain all the pie varieties after you die, even if you manage to establish the basic framework. Plus, it is hard enough to make sufficient meat pies and stew to keep the population fed in a small town. If you start diverting carrots and berries into the pies too, you won't be doing the place any favors. It puts even greater strain on the food supply AND risks compromising the compost cycle. This is a recipe for town collapse.

Lol... the compost cycle. As if all the soil pits have gotten dug up and used, and no one can use a horsecart to run more soil. As if once sheep exist compost must be the most efficient thing, even though compost takes 4 minutes to complete composting once it has gotten composted.

DestinyCall wrote:

In a small town with a high population, food crisis and starvation due to over-population is a much more significant threat than lack of reproductive females. Therefore, in most smaller villages, it makes more sense to focus on efficient food production (meat pies) over yum-chaining for fertility. In fact, the fertility boost provided by yum can work against you if the village is already drowning in too many babies. Higher fertility is great when you need more girls, but it can be kind of a drag if your village is in "Just let your babies starve" mode due to widespread famine.

Sure does sound like theory crafting. Here's more theory crafting: survival of the fittest. Get as many people as you can, and then during famine the better ones survive. So, then the next generation gets a bigger jump, because the previous generations players were better. But, again, that's theory crafting. You can believe that you know all day long, but it's not like you ever know what "starvation" meant. Someone or a group of peopple might have quit or gotten careless or not wanted to forage for food. There is no way to know that a famine actually killed a town. Not in this game.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-04 14:11:15

it would be hard for me to find a point where i agree with pein
lol... you can't eat iron
i don't think i want to live in his type of camp
refusing to make eggs?
calling camps that prioritize food over iron 'shitcamps'?
lol... you can't eat iron
lol... iron doesn't produce any increase in fertility

lmake eggs with 5 ponds especially since eggs don't require any soil or water
also, no you can wait to make a shovel until water or soil runs out
both water and soil are for food so you don't need shovel until it will come as needed for food
water also replenishes and it's at a quicker rate than before
especially if farmers would take from multiple ponds early on instead of using the same pond over and over again

shitcamps?
those are the camps 10 generations or so in and still barely have any yum
food always has more importance than iron
in the end iron is useful for food or killing snakes (but snakes aren't so much of a threat anymore anways)
no one dies from an iron shortage
no lineages die out from an iron shortage

starvation, predators, and other people kill people
lineages die out from lack of fertile girls and murderous griefers
no idea what to do about murderous griefers myself
but more yum increases the probability of fertile girls

lol... as if anyone can eat iron or having an stack of iron or processed steel increases fertility

DestinyCall · 2019-03-04 20:50:21

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Using a whole bowl of berries as a pie filling is very costly.
Laughs. What?! For all we know the cost of a whole bowl of berries is zero water, zero soil, and zero kindling. How is that 'very costly'?

I am talking about the opportunity cost associated with combining the bowl of berries and the bowl of wheat to make berry pies. Compared with leaving the berry bowl out of the pie and either using a different pie filling or even baking bread. You do not gain enough to justify combining these foods in my opinion. Doing almost anything else with your wheat gives you more bonus food from processing. Bonus food from processing does not require the end user to take advantage of yum bonus. It is free food that everyone benefits from, even new players or non-yumming veterans. And you can ALSO gain yum bonus from high efficiency foods, so it is a win-win.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
It would be better to make a different kind of pie using that wheat and leave the berries on the bush to be eaten raw or used for composting. Doing so would allow you to feed more people with the same number of cooking ingredients OR produce more dirt to grow vital crops, like wheat, corn, squash, carrots, milkweed or even gooseberry bushes.
You didn't account for yum, so you don't know any such thing.

I intentionally ignore yum in these calculations because the base value of the food is important. That is what I'm talking about here. Making better pies feeds more people than making worse pies. All foods benefit equally from yum bonus, so you can eat low efficiency Tier 4 foods or high efficiency Tier 1 foods to gain the same amount of yum bonus. It is better to use better foods for yumming since they take less time and resources to produce in quantity. More people can benefit from yum when you make processed foods like stew, milk, popcorn, and meat pies. These all have lots of pips and lots of bites to spread the value.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Put another way, a rabbit pie and bowl of berries is worth 86 pips, but a berry rabbit pie is only worth 72 pips. The difference between them is the amount of food you LOSE when you decide to make the berry rabbit pie instead of just making a rabbit pie.
No. No food gets lost by cooking anything. You've selected rabbit pie to compare to. I do find that interesting and you have interesting numbers. But it's kind of selective. Why didn't you choose berry pie and a cooked rabbit to compare to instead?
Just talking about total food as you insist on doing is simply inadequate. It doesn't account for yum, nor does it account for the fertility bonus that comes from yum.

I made my comparison to the best alternative that can be made with the same ingredients so that it was a strong comparison. If you look at the food value for berry pie and cooked rabbit, it is only 58 pips. A bowl of berries, cooked rabbit and 1/4 of a plate of bread would be 56 pips, which is almost identical. But by recombining those ingredients into a bowl of berries and a rabbit pie, you get 86 pips. This is the power of meat pies.

If you are looking at a berry rabbit pie or a berry carrot rabbit pie, you shouldn't be making a weak comparison using carrot pie or berry pie or bread. Those options are not as good as rabbit pie. They don't give as many bonus pips from processing.

And I am JUST talking about total food value here for a reason. Because you can yum using rabbit pie and other high efficiency foods for a yum bonus. The exact same yum bonus that you could get by using less efficient foods. But by yumming on bad foods, you are losing out on the bonus pips gained from processing food in the best ways. That is why I recommend NOT using bad food to yum. Use the power of processed foods and the yum bonus TOGETHER for maximum benefit. Don't waste pips in the pursuit of yum. It's counter-productive.

pein · 2019-03-05 04:05:05

Spoonwood wrote:

it would be hard for me to find a point where i agree with pein
lol... you can't eat iron
i don't think i want to live in his type of camp
refusing to make eggs?
calling camps that prioritize food over iron 'shitcamps'?
lol... you can't eat iron
lol... iron doesn't produce any increase in fertility
lmake eggs with 5 ponds especially since eggs don't require any soil or water
also, no you can wait to make a shovel until water or soil runs out
both water and soil are for food so you don't need shovel until it will come as needed for food
water also replenishes and it's at a quicker rate than before
especially if farmers would take from multiple ponds early on instead of using the same pond over and over again
shitcamps?
those are the camps 10 generations or so in and still barely have any yum
food always has more importance than iron
in the end iron is useful for food or killing snakes (but snakes aren't so much of a threat anymore anways)
no one dies from an iron shortage
no lineages die out from an iron shortage
starvation, predators, and other people kill people
lineages die out from lack of fertile girls and murderous griefers
no idea what to do about murderous griefers myself
but more yum increases the probability of fertile girls
lol... as if anyone can eat iron or having an stack of iron or processed steel increases fertility

most of camps never even become cities
a city has tools and pen
if it doesn't, people will quit that life
its not fun to do the grind over and over
and doesn't help to feed noobs for sake of population if the smartest quit on you
no noobs built big cities
every city is made by a few smart people
i had a gen 40 camp
we had a huge adobe building
that was made in one lifetime by multiple people or same person in multiple lifes

we went out on a horse and found a gen 20 camp, had a smaller bakery and a pen, was quite neat, still maybe 4-5 people did it in 20 gen
they had one girl, who had mostly sons

then we went even further, a gen 10 camp? lowest population of all, had the basics, farm, some tools, 2 people alive, no kids

so what is the difference between all those?
mostly just eye candy i think
i cant really call it gen 40 when i knew gen 40 towns made by myself and a few friends

this 3 tows were very close to each other and tarr described the stdout, which helped me find them, they were far enough no one to meet there by chance

some maps are bad, and people cant make it viable, its not time or workforce, it's the skill
if you got a small green biome, you will have bad time doing eggs and stew
if it's a small swamp you will have less plates
if its small savanah, most people will be naked
if its tooo high population people waste time with organization and rarely makes it a good looking city
i moved kilns a lot of times, and that saved us lot of time on tools, i don't think anyone would have made an axe between the babies running next to the kiln using branches

sometimes i go look for iron and i find dead camps
its not so hard to determine how they died out
generally no soil or water and no tools to get more, no carts either
you cant eat babies
technology makes it easier
griefers only are a major issue after you got a stable state
most of games you don't have griefers anyway
and if he succeeds then it means you got no good veterans there
i can assure that no one fucks around with my camps while im there

sure there are cases when a girl escapes and makes new camp but most people stick to what they got

you wont see newbee girls go and make new camp cause there are too many females

ever so often i meet one guy who tries to feed everyone and fails
then i make the technological breakout and one girl survives
you just want to put more work on veterans and still disregard their value

so that's why what you say is stupid
you can make a camp viable with tools, cistern, carts
more babies, more people, more workforce? nope, more mouths to feed
you cant provide static jobs for everyone
a sstatic job requires resources, resources are gathered by scavengers

you did play on my camps, they work
you don't know if im there or i was there
they are on a stable level
heck everyone came to s5 when i did my marathon and they got there by chance and stayed by choice
when i joined there was no barely any population
when i switched to s2 the other day, same thing happened
im not the only one, there are others too
and they are not yummers, they are hard working people who can make viable camps

the other day i kept alive a civ for 2-3 more generation and told on discord that i made a grave pen with sand pile entrance
tarr told me the city wasnt good enough to play in it
i wanted to quit myself but i was a last girl at that time
its not that its not possible, its that not fun or don't have to play 60 min to realize its an unviable place to have big population

on other server knowing that im not the only one decent person, i do goofy stuff like a pen made of 5 lines of bush wall and tree farming, goose farming, on bigserver its not possible

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 04:44:03

DestinyCall wrote:

I am talking about the opportunity cost associated with combining the bowl of berries and the bowl of wheat to make berry pies. Compared with leaving the berry bowl out of the pie and either using a different pie filling or even baking bread. You do not gain enough to justify combining these foods in my opinion. Doing almost anything else with your wheat gives you more bonus food from processing. Bonus food from processing does not require the end user to take advantage of yum bonus. It is free food that everyone benefits from, even new players or non-yumming veterans. And you can ALSO gain yum bonus from high efficiency foods, so it is a win-win.

There's no way to know if that makes for enough yum for a settlement. Everyone benefits from? But a settlement with 2 women and 4 men with 6 yum each is LESS likely to survive than a settlement where the 2 women have 10 yum each and the men have like 2 yum maximum.

DestinyCall wrote:

I intentionally ignore yum in these calculations because the base value of the food is important. That is what I'm talking about here.

You're STILL ignoring yum, even in a thread about yum and where I have repeatedly insisted that it should get taken into account.

DestinyCall wrote:

Making better pies feeds more people than making worse pies. All foods benefit equally from yum bonus, so you can eat low efficiency Tier 4 foods or high efficiency Tier 1 foods to gain the same amount of yum bonus.

No foods benefit from the yum bonus. It's only the player who benefits. Also, foods in tier 1 and tier 4 come as all over the place with respect to raw pips they give a player. You keep insisting that 'bad foods' exist. Alright, I'll take on that challenge for a moment. A player with low pips can't get your yum as fast by eating rabbit pie first and then say shucked corn after. A player would get their yum up faster by eating shucked corn and then eating rabbit pie. There exist over 20 foods with less raw pips than rabbit pie. So, guess what? Rabbit pie ends up one the lower tier of all foods. In other words *rabbit pie can be a bad food*. Why would you want to get your yum up fast when you have low pips? Well, maybe you're a female and it's looking like fertility comes as a serious problem. In such a case, rabbit pie is inefficient. But hey, since you'll ignore yum, you'll insist that only 'efficiency' matters. But having more raw pips around is irrelevant if a family dies off due to a lack of fertility.

DestinyCall wrote:

It is better to use better foods for yumming since they take less time and resources to produce in quantity. More people can benefit from yum when you make processed foods like stew, milk, popcorn, and meat pies. These all have lots of pips and lots of bites to spread the value.

More people benefiting isn't even necessarily better. You don't want griefers to have a high amount of yum, do you? Also, females in or near their fertility period can use yum more than men.

DestinyCall wrote:

I made my comparison to the best alternative that can be made with the same ingredients so that it was a strong comparison. If you look at the food value for berry pie and cooked rabbit, it is only 58 pips. A bowl of berries, cooked rabbit and 1/4 of a plate of bread would be 56 pips, which is almost identical. But by recombining those ingredients into a bowl of berries and a rabbit pie, you get 86 pips. This is the power of meat pies.

Meat pies are more filling than non-meat pies and thus can be slower to accelerate yum than other foods.

DestinyCall wrote:

And I am JUST talking about total food value here for a reason. Because you can yum using rabbit pie and other high efficiency foods for a yum bonus.

A woman at 18 who has 3 pips left and eat a rabbit pie is nearly full. If she eats popcorn, green beans, and shucked corn gets 12 raw pips and +2 yum. The yum meter is separate from the pip bar. She has plus 2 yum. Assuming none of those eaten, which is better for the woman seeking to have more children? The rabbit pie is the inferior choice. Really, when I think about it, this suggests that a bowl of popcorn, and a bowl of green beans should ALWAYS lie around camp in the case of a fertility crisis once a settlement can make both of those. If the woman was at 7 pips... she'll have to wait to eat until she loses a bar. If the pip bar is 20 at that age (I haven't done those calculations) and she ate the popcorn, green beans, and shucked corn, then she can eat again and have +3 yum. The rabbit pie eater is 3 yum behind on fertility.

DestinyCall wrote:

But by yumming on bad foods, you are losing out on the bonus pips gained from processing food in the best ways. That is why I recommend NOT using bad food to yum.

How many times have I talked about fertility before your response here?

DestinyCall wrote:

Use the power of processed foods and the yum bonus TOGETHER for maximum benefit. Don't waste pips in the pursuit of yum. It's counter-productive.

Lack of efficiency is not a cause of death. Nor do lineages die from a lack of efficiency. Efficiency can matter, but it's indirect enough. Families dying out, because the women weren't fertile enough is counter-productive. Yum has a direct link to fertility. And ferility has a direct link to lineages surviving.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 05:11:25

pein wrote:

tarr told me the city wasnt good enough to play in it

You are worried about the opinion of the guy who raids tutorial areas with planes? I mean... he's not helping his family by wanting 21 iron to go towards a toy, instead of increasing the yum and food potential of his family. The opinion of the guy who suggests dying at what 56 or 57, because apparently he doesn't realize that if one yums enough, one can still get productive things done during their last few years?

pein wrote:

griefers only are a major issue after you got a stable state

I have to wonder if you would say the same thing if your first child went around trying to light as many fires as possible in his or her life.

pein wrote:

you just want to put more work on veterans and still disregard their value

Like DestinyCall and booklat1 who are still deliberately ignoring the conversation about yum in this thread which was originally about yum? Who aren't saying anything about fertility? Like Tarr who doesn't think the last years can be productive enough to warrant it? Even like Twisted, who tried to argue that potatoes were bad in a recent YouTube video of his? Give me a break. If those players come as what you call 'veterans', then the veterans have arrogant attitudes who don't care about how the yum bonus and don't care about the fertility of their families. Or they hold such back. One of them apparently would rather raid a tutorial area with a toy, than make the probability of his family surviving more likely.

Who puts more work on skilled players? Anyone making any technology that requires a newcomen multipurpose engine. You can have infinite water with just a charcoal pump. So potatoes end up better than a diesel engine used for anything. I mean really, it's 18 iron to make a diesel engine in the first place. That's so much resources and time processing all of that which could have gone to increasing the yum and total food of a settlement that it's not even funny. But hey, people will go on insisting that I'm wrong here, and using questionable arguments by authority, I don't doubt that. Why wouldn't they at least one person do such when all when families compete for fertile children?

DestinyCall · 2019-03-05 05:22:18

Spoonwood wrote:

More people benefiting isn't even necessarily better. You don't want griefers to have a high amount of yum, do you? Also, females in or near their fertility period can use yum more than men.

So the truth comes out .. you secretly don't like men. How dare you disregard their right to yum just because they lack the ability to reproduce? Is fertility the only think you care about? How rude. Men are people too. They deserve to yum just as much as the reproductive age females in the village. Don't be so elitist. Yum belongs to everyone. Let them all yum, old and young, men and women, griefer and non-griefer, veteran and noob. Don't restrict it to just a small subset of the population that benefits from the fertility boost. After all, over half of your population is either too old or too young or too male to have children. None of them get any fertility benefit from yumming. Should they just not yum at all? That seems really unfair.

I think you should make it easy and affordable for everyone to eat a variety of foods. Good, cheap foods like meat pies and stew and bread and milk and turkey bring yum to the common folk. Everyone can eat a wide variety of foods instead of just a select few. I don't understand why you are against this. It seems like a really good thing to me.

I guess I just don't understand your vision, Spoonwood. Perhaps I never will.

pein · 2019-03-05 06:28:23

guess what, Tarr at least makes things people are interested in
after so many hours you cant expect any veterans to feed noobs for 1 hour

the age has other reasons i don't wish to disclose

i kill the griefers, while you yum

lot of cities fail without a veteran, it doesn't hurt that much on an eve camp
also skill difference means that if the griefer is more skilled, your pathetic attempts get you killed anyway
i tend to be cautious even if i meet noobs with weapons, generally they chase me and they die without a chance of getting back to city to frame me

my opinion about twisted is not a secret
you can see the skill difference on that video
if planted potatoes wouldn't look like planted wheat for the early stage, and i didn't spent my life teachign that life, possibly i would have stab him on screen, but chances are, he wouldn't upload that

its an understanding between us, lot of people are skilled enough to make a workign camp and in meantime others make the same then next life a witch might happen and we continue their work
thats our current endgame, and its more fun than running around eating and talking

we could argue that people don't have the skill but i seen that most often they don't have the mentality either
even a newbee can be useful grinding resources
and a person who chooses rp in a small camp, only increases food consumption and distracts others to solve long term problems

you are not fully wrong, you just don't have the experience of a highly populated city and what actions make an actual difference
my approach is to showcase things until it becomes mainstream
want more food? show them how goose farming is viable by planting trees in a pen form
this increases butt log output, firewood and saves time on transport, you get 1 goose per egg and poop, and requires no plates when done in mass scale only uses 1 kindling, and you can still do paper and a few cooked rabbit, then the rest of the eggs
make a cow pen attached to a house and make enough buckets to have excess for the milk

lot of people do the bush digging, and placing boards on middle, that was showcased by me, maybe not enough people but good to see some of them do it, also ideal job for my newbee daughter who lived 40 years instead of 6-7 like the others
i care about the select few who has the ability to become a good player
like how i meet Dodge in 2 lifes or Bluediamondavatar, and they are newer players but already see the bigger picture and can save a camp and make it nice and tidy

don't paint things black and white
i killed most of the people in this game, and i was killed a few times by some of them, we are still ok with each other
some people like twisted have their head in their butt, and honestly is just funny to troll them even more
if you hate me or others is your problem, good players can put away their feelings and use their logic
if you are an asshat and expect good will in return then the problem is not the other person, you never even tried any other way

Tarr · 2019-03-05 07:40:22

Spoonwood wrote:

You are worried about the opinion of the guy who raids tutorial areas with planes? I mean... he's not helping his family by wanting 21 iron to go towards a toy, instead of increasing the yum and food potential of his family. The opinion of the guy who suggests dying at what 56 or 57, because apparently he doesn't realize that if one yums enough, one can still get productive things done during their last few years?

Lord you're a goof ball. I'm only responding because you brought me up again even after you tried to defend flat rocking the main fire before getting out the steel axe. We have very different viewpoints with some of us liking to base are things off facts while your goof butt likes to base it off your silly viewpoint.

When I make a plane we very easily output more resources than we use to make a plane in the first place. We've even gotten the tutorial raids down to where we're using horse carts over in the tutorial for even faster load times between back and forth trips. Your goof ass is defending using shovel charges to clear potatoes which are 48 pips worth of food (you have to seed one potato per row) or 52 if you count the yum bonus. Do you know what other food produces exactly 48 pips without using the shovel? Popcorn. You are busting shovels on the main server for an extra four pips over popcorn and that's not only wasteful but atrocious.

This is a constant in your arguments you are always supporting terrible net food gains (berry pie variants, potatoes) in hopes that others will yum off these terrible food options. People constantly explain to you that these food options are awful and that you should yum off the good food options instead of yumming off the worst possible options.

Berry, Bowl, popcorn, stew, mutton pie, rabbit pie, bread, whole milk, skim milk, buttered bread. That's a ten yum chain all on good food options that are easy to come by in a city and guess what? No shitty potatoes, no shitty berry pies and if you make any of those foods you've done your city a favor. If your argument was for people to make good yum foods you would get a lot more support than trying to convince people to make bad food for a meme mechanic.

But Tarr me need big brain yum chain, ten too smol.

Mango slices, omelette, turkey on plate, drumstick, turkey broth. Wow you're now at a yum chain of 15 and still not eating bad foods. Oh and what's this? we've only eaten one nonrenewable resource (turkey) so this can be kept up for a long time. Don't like a nonrenewable in your list? Replace turkey with sauerkraut, bean burrito, cactus fruit. So now we're at 18 yum, no bad foods AND 15 of it is renewable. Lets just throw in the mushroom, and a cooked piece of mutton. Now we're at a yum chain of 20 and guess what? Zero bad foods.

This is why people think you're a troll. You support picking the worst types of food to back when you have a whole list of options that are both good foods and not completely asinine to try to convince people to eat. Hell we even skipped some of the easy foods to get because they're bad to eat in the first place: Carrots, cooked rabbits, raw corn.

So instead of trying to convince people to eat potatoes and berry pies tell people to make good food that you can either yum off of or eat separately without making a bunch of waste.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 13:57:04

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
More people benefiting isn't even necessarily better. You don't want griefers to have a high amount of yum, do you? Also, females in or near their fertility period can use yum more than men.
So the truth comes out .. you secretly don't like men. How dare you disregard their right to yum just because they lack the ability to reproduce? Is fertility the only think you care about? How rude. Men are people too. They deserve to yum just as much as the reproductive age females in the village. Don't be so elitist. Yum belongs to everyone. Let them all yum, old and young, men and women, griefer and non-griefer, veteran and noob. Don't restrict it to just a small subset of the population that benefits from the fertility boost. After all, over half of your population is either too old or too young or too male to have children. None of them get any fertility benefit from yumming. Should they just not yum at all? That seems really unfair.
I think you should make it easy and affordable for everyone to eat a variety of foods. Good, cheap foods like meat pies and stew and bread and milk and turkey bring yum to the common folk. Everyone can eat a wide variety of foods instead of just a select few. I don't understand why you are against this. It seems like a really good thing to me.
I guess I just don't understand your vision, Spoonwood. Perhaps I never will.

I found that an amusing post DestinyCall. What you say could get argued to the effect that the game is flawed with respect to reproducibility mechanics. And no, I don't take what you said personally, because as you know, I didn't design the yum mechanic. I also don't know of a better reproducibility mechanic for this game that would be viable, so I don't see why Jason would necessarily take umbrage at that either.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 14:00:52

pein wrote:

you are not fully wrong, you just don't have the experience of a highly populated city and what actions make an actual difference
my approach is to showcase things until it becomes mainstream
want more food? show them how goose farming is viable by planting trees in a pen form
this increases butt log output, firewood and saves time on transport, you get 1 goose per egg and poop, and requires no plates when done in mass scale only uses 1 kindling, and you can still do paper and a few cooked rabbit, then the rest of the eggs
make a cow pen attached to a house and make enough buckets to have excess for the milk

I agree that increasing food while increasing the wood supply makes for a good idea.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 14:33:16

Tarr wrote:

When I make a plane we very easily output more resources than we use to make a plane in the first place. We've even gotten the tutorial raids down to where we're using horse carts over in the tutorial for even faster load times between back and forth trips. You are busting shovels on the main server for an extra four pips over popcorn and that's not only wasteful but atrocious.

Tarr admitted on the discord that he had the plane stolen from him before. So, it follows just by that the plane won't admit more than it produces. Also, here's just the iron cost of setting a plane from scratch:

3 iron for a multipurpose newcomen engine core
1 iron to make the newcomen hammer
2 iron to make the roller
3 iron to make the bore (at least according to the wiki the lathe can use the same steel blade as the bore... my lathe has a different steel blade, but I'll trust the wiki)
8 iron for the rig + who knows how many more extensions
4 iron ore for the fractional distiller
1 tank to make crude oil
1 tank to refine the oil
18 iron ore for the diesel engine

That's (+ 3 1 2 3 8 4 1 1 18) = 41 plus however much iron you need for the steel pipes so the rig becomes wet. That's so many shovels, axes, and hoes that can get made. 7 tutorial areas have to get raided just to make that iron up. That doesn't account for the rope, the water, and the kindling to set all of that up either. Or the wool for the wing.

There is barely any food in a tutorial area with respect to yum. So, no, you don't make up that yum. And I simply don't buy that your family ends up benefiting yum wise from whatever you get from the tutorial area in the long run.

41 iron? Shovel the potatoes would you!

Tarr wrote:

Your goof ass is defending using shovel charges to clear potatoes which are 48 pips worth of food (you have to seed one potato per row) or 52 if you count the yum bonus. Do you know what other food produces exactly 48 pips without using the shovel? Popcorn.

No, it does NOT work that way. Let's say you have just 5 yum, which is low for anyone experienced. Popcorn gives you 3 pips for the first bite and 6 yum for 9. Popcorn again just gives you 3 pips. That's 12 bars. The potato gives you 6 pips and 6 yum for the first bite. It gives you 6 pips and 7 yum for the second bite. And that reveals the deficiency in your calculations. You can't just assume +1 yum, because it can easily come as more yum than that.

Tarr wrote:

This is a constant in your arguments you are always supporting terrible net food gains (berry pie variants, potatoes) in hopes that others will yum off these terrible food options. People constantly explain to you that these food options are awful and that you should yum off the good food options instead of yumming off the worst possible options.

Sure they do (except for pein, I think). And they are NOT looking at fertility, even after I insist that such get discussed.

Tarr wrote:

Berry, Bowl, popcorn, stew, mutton pie, rabbit pie, bread, whole milk, skim milk, buttered bread. That's a ten yum chain all on good food options that are easy to come by in a city and guess what?

And everything other than the popcorn can be slower to raise one's yum than the green beans.

Tarr wrote:

No shitty potatoes

Says the player investing so much iron into planes. Or wanting the iron invested that way. Give me a break. A settlement can easily die off in the time it takes to make a plane and raid enough tutorial areas to make all of those resources back that the plane cost.

Tarr wrote:

no shitty berry pies and if you make any of those foods you've done your city a favor. If your argument was for people to make good yum foods you would get a lot more support than trying to convince people to make bad food for a meme mechanic.

There are NO bad foods. The game comes as too situational in terms of optimal play to classify foods as bad. Even the mushroom is fine for players who know where things lie (but it's tricky).

Tarr wrote:

But Tarr me need big brain yum chain, ten too smol.

Go back and read that argument where green beans appear again. The size of the yum chain isn't the only problem.

Tarr wrote:

Mango slices, omelette, turkey on plate, drumstick, turkey broth. Wow you're now at a yum chain of 15 and still not eating bad foods. Oh and what's this? we've only eaten one nonrenewable resource (turkey) so this can be kept up for a long time. Don't like a nonrenewable in your list? Replace turkey with sauerkraut, bean burrito, cactus fruit. So now we're at 18 yum, no bad foods AND 15 of it is renewable. Lets just throw in the mushroom, and a cooked piece of mutton. Now we're at a yum chain of 20 and guess what? Zero bad foods.

For all I know from what you said a fertile mom ate a turkey slice with 1 pip left, and instead of eating popcorn, green beans (7), a berry (12), a berry in a bowl (17), and a piece of shucked corn. She could have 4 yum fairly quickly, with the green beans eaten, but if she just goes with the food which costs the less in terms of soil and water (the turkey slice), she's made the inferior choice for fertility.

pein · 2019-03-05 17:57:31

mushroom as food is same as irl cocain for food vouchers
it's a joke from jason, and its not reliable

change the sprites if you want to see them squitoes

Spoonwood · 2019-03-05 23:08:41

Well I have managed to plan out a little project after eating the mushroom such that the effect doesn't slow me down. Like a few times. And I'm by no means consistent with doing that. Like if I tried again in a hour I might manage to get a bunch done during the psychdelic period, or I might not. And that's in a town where I know where everything lies.

And yeah... sometimes mosquitoes become more visible with the mushroom, sometimes they don't. As pein said, it's not reliable.

Also, back to the orignial post... if you want to get plus 10 yum, there's a trick. I didn't mention it before, because I'm not sure it counts. But, I'll throw it out there. You eat up to your +4 yum. Then plan two meals with small foods like popcorn and green beans. Wait until you have a pip deficit (that's how many bars are white) of at least one more than the smaller food. So, you would need to have 4 white bars if you hadn't eaten popcorn and green beans. Then you eat the pocorn and green beans in quick succession. You get +5 yum for the popcorn, and +6 yum for the green beans giving you +11 yum.

There exist two advantages with such a technique.

1. It can boost fertility. It does NOT boost fertility up to +11 yum level according to a comment by betame here: http://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=5508 Though, it will boost your yum fertility in the above example up to +6 yum earlier than if you had waited to eat.

2. It can boost your yum up before going on a trip, or doing some project where you won't want to eat for a while.

Such a technique of spiking yum though probably wouldn't be ideal for a man smithing around town or a woman past her fertility. It might, or might not, have value for children before 8, because of their slow movement speed. So, it's something to think about, but in my opinion requires caution, unless you know you're in your fertility period as a woman and have a concern about having children.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2019-03-05 23:16:49)

futurebird · 2019-03-06 01:45:43

This thread is like digital Cain and Able. Who is getting killed? The farmer or the Shepard?

Tarr · 2019-03-06 11:04:23

futurebird wrote:

This thread is like digital Cain and Able. Who is getting killed? The farmer or the Shepard?

I'd more describe it as a flat earther ignoring all the facts they're given lel.

pein · 2019-03-06 11:31:11

futurebird wrote:

This thread is like digital Cain and Able. Who is getting killed? The farmer or the Shepard?

went for a nap, after 4 hours awake a bit, but i was actually in bed for like 6.5 hours

spoonwood still talking about yum in discord before and after

Spoonwood · 2019-03-06 14:06:52

Tarr wrote:

I'd more describe it as a flat earther ignoring all the facts they're given lel.

I'm pretty sure the people who made all the "efficiency" calculations ignored yum. Also, I'm pretty sure that people who talked about "bad foods", especially claiming green beans as a "bad bood", didn't consider the fertility bonus aspect of yum, since green beans can be an excellent food to quickly increase yum.

Greep · 2019-03-06 14:54:29

Perhaps we're not explaining our case correctly because it's too obvious when you enter a main server. I didn't know you mainly play on off servers for a while into this argument.

The main issue is in a good sized city you will have around 20-30 people. Lets say 8 of these are yumming, and most of them are doing non-food related activites, because most of the rest of the town is essentially leeching and the good players need to do a lot of upkeep. Which means you've probably got 1 or 2 people for a gigantic town making variety food.

The bad strategy, the one you seem to be recommending as possible on a main server, is trying to provide all yum varieties either for yourself or a portion of these 8 yummers. You will fail, and some yummers will get very high yum and some will get medium yum. But all of them will be consuming some food that is inefficient.

The better strategy is to mass produce yum in order of their efficiency in the tiers list, only bumping down a tier when you've made dozens of a given yum food. You will fail in making your way down the whole list, but because it's massed produced, all yummers will have a medium-high yum. And because youre focusing on the higher tier foods only, they will additionally get better food. This also has the upshot that if some newbs are randomly eating food en masse, they will probably only destroy one or two food varieties, as opposed to, say, five or ten.

When we say "potatoes are bad" it's because you will never make it this far down the list with the mass production strategy. If you have somehow gotten that far down,, chances are you should be doing something other than producing variety food because way too many people are focusing on that.

On a solo or near solo server, this is not the case: You will have such a high average skill level that you can have a much higher portion of the town percentage focused on producing variety food and can succeed on making variety food for all players.

Last edited by Greep (2019-03-06 15:04:38)

DestinyCall · 2019-03-06 17:23:00

Spoonwood wrote:

I'm pretty sure the people who made all the "efficiency" calculations ignored yum. Also, I'm pretty sure that people who talked about "bad foods", especially claiming green beans as a "bad bood", didn't consider the fertility bonus aspect of yum, since green beans can be an excellent food to quickly increase yum.

I do not place much weight on the "yum value" of foods when determining efficiency, because ALL foods can gain a yum bonus, good or bad, efficient or inefficient. That means that foods which have a better base food value are improved by yum bonus in the same way and to the same degree as foods that have a low base food value. It also means that foods that are very easy to produce on a large scale at low cost can be improved even more by yum bonus, so they remain the better choice. Using the yum bonus to try to make an inefficient food look better doesn't work, because that food still costs too much to make compared with cheaper and easier to mass-produce foods. An inefficient, costly food isn't more efficient because you eat it when your yum chain is +14, even thought it now gives you more food from one bite. Getting your chain high enough can eventually make any "bad" food into viable food option by adding enough pips to make-up for its lower base food value, but that food is still inefficient to produce compared with the available alternatives.

I haven't talked that much about the fertility bonus aspect of yum, because I think it is moving away from the primary question of how to keep an entire village well-fed. Fertility rate only applies to a fraction of your village population. On average, half of your village will be male and about half of the female population will be either too old or too young to be reproductive. So at any given time only about a quarter of your village might be able to benefit from the fertility boost provided by yum. Of course, there are times when your village has a lot more women, so more reproductive age women could be yumming to improve their birth rate. But the more women you have in your village, the less you need to improve fertility rate. The larger number of mothers will increase your village's birthrate regardless of yum, so any additional bonus provided by yum will be largely unnecessary.

In fact, from a village perspective, the time when yum-based fertility provides the greatest benefit would be when the village has only a very small number of reproductive females. In this special situation, the "rules" for yum change from what is best for everyone to a more selfish "yum as much as you can, as fast as you can" approach to yumming. The mother-to-be would want to raise her yum as high as possible during her childhood and prepare a wide selection of yum foods for her fertile period. Depending on the state of the village's food supply, this might include some "bad" foods which are costly to produce in larger amounts but quick to make from available resources, like green beans and berry pies. Ideally, this woman would also focus on getting fully clothed and try to remain as close to ideal temperature as possible. In most villages, that would mean being in a closed building with a fire or right next to a fire for most of her fertile period, only leaving to quickly grab food shortly after birthing a child so she was in cool-down. Even better, she could have a variety of foods prepared and brought to her by the rest of the village. This would maximize fertility along both values and increase her fertility rate above competing mothers so she could birth a horde of children (if there were enough players on the server to allow it). This kind of lifestyle would only be reasonable for a woman who is specifically aiming to be as reproductive as possible during her fertile years and shouldn't be followed by the average player who is not focused on being a dedicated baby oven.

For the majority of the village, it doesn't make sense to yum like a pregnant woman. In fact, I'd say that even the majority of reproductive-age women probably don't need to yum like that. Personally, I'd only consider yumming for fertility when my village is experiencing a "baby famine" and I'm one of the last females. Otherwise, I just deal with the babies when they come to me and keep on working to improve the village in other ways, while wearing good clothes and keeping a reasonable yum chain going from the available high-efficiency foods. The standard fertility rate is usually more than adequate to keep a stable population, especially if you are providing your children with a strong support system - adequate food, clothing, and education to keep them alive to adulthood.

Bottom-line, the fertility boost provided by high yum is worth considering in certain situations, but it doesn't change the math related to food efficiency. From the "whole village" perspective, green beans, fresh corn, and berry pies are still bad food. Tier 1 and Tier 2 foods are superior to Tier 3 and Tier 4 foods when mass-producing a variety of foods to feed the general populace. Individual yummers can produce and eat "bad" foods to improve their personal yum bonus above the average, but this behavior is not sustainable on a larger scale. In most cases, it is just selfish and wasteful to aim for maximizing yum bonus in a multiplayer village, rather than focusing on sustainable and efficient food production for everyone.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-03-06 19:22:30)

Spoonwood · 2019-03-07 02:10:30

Greep wrote:

The bad strategy, the one you seem to be recommending as possible on a main server, is trying to provide all yum varieties either for yourself or a portion of these 8 yummers. You will fail, and some yummers will get very high yum and some will get medium yum. But all of them will be consuming some food that is inefficient.
The better strategy is to mass produce yum in order of their efficiency in the tiers list, only bumping down a tier when you've made dozens of a given yum food.

No. Those berries sit on the bushes and consequently encourage berry munching (which I'm well aware of). Also, the whole tier list slows done yum potential. Cook as many of the pie types as you can as soon as possible. Milks, as good as they are, will also take longer, since you'll need to spare buckets away from the water supply and for making rubber for a newcomen charcoal pump or a rubber cart (for the record I do NOT make a rubber cart where I play... I am aware that they are significantly useful on the bigserver... I feel like it's not worth it for what I've done lately, because of the amount of time I spend playing to the decay rate). Additionally, cooked mutton can precede milk given that a sheep pen precedes a cow pen (I don't know if a cow pen preceding a sheep pen has ever even got attempted). Furthermore, omelettes can appear very early on. So can the wild foods via gathering.

The list completely ignores context of when it comes as reasonable to make a food. Suggesting that milk precedes omelettes comes as the most glaring example. Omelettes require plates. Milk requires a bucket. Milk also pressures the water and soil supply. Omelettes don't. I see every reason to believe that omelettes make for a good idea in an Eve camp. If all of the plates get used cooking omelettes so much the better (and I do mean this). If there are no smithing plates, then the person wanting to smith should get the clay and then fire more clay. The first fire probably should not even get turned back into a fire after it goes to hot coals, since there probably won't exist more clay ready to fire more clay or blacksmithing won't be set up. And keep the fires going before firewood ends up burning more kindling (kindling which ends up further and further out... back when I did desert edge Even runs I once had a child threw kindling on the hot coals before I could start frying eggs... I asked him why he did that, he said to keep the fire going...I thought it rather silly, because he'd just have to run more and more to keep that fire going which wouldn't get used for anything... now such a fire will heat a baby, but so will hot coals while also supplying food) with less payback in terms of resources. So really, it's probably better than eggs appear that early. And even if not, soon after. Eggs also decrease the pressure on needing a shovel and allows for more water regeneration time (which ends up even better with farmers who use multiple ponds instead of the all too common taking almost all to all water from the primary pond). And omelettes make for a terrific food if the player is an adult and waits until they have a very low pip count (I'm not saying that waiting until 1 pip comes as optimal... just that it should be low). If no adults eat omelettes for a bit and the children don't either, and that delays blacksmithing, that's fine also. More clay should get gotten and fired first, and more charcoal should get made which picks up the blacksmithing process later. And that also can mean another earlier trip out to the swamp to know whether or not boars exist there which should get hunted, or where backup ponds might exist.

So really, that whole tier system comes as remarkably flawed. I guess I might have revived an old argument about cooking eggs early on. But, I don't see any real reason to delay a food that can get cooked ad infinitum in principle, requires no water and no soil, in turn decreases iron pressure, allows for more water regeneration, and lastly increases the amount of yum available.

Greep wrote:

You will fail in making your way down the whole list, but because it's massed produced, all yummers will have a medium-high yum. And because youre focusing on the higher tier foods only, they will additionally get better food.

Milk before a bucket is not better than omelettes once plates exist. So, no, what you assert does not hold.

Greep wrote:

This also has the upshot that if some newbs are randomly eating food en masse, they will probably only destroy one or two food varieties, as opposed to, say, five or ten.

Seriously, think about cooking at the oven. You've suggested cooking only tier 1 foods first. So, then in the oven you only cook rabbit pies before a knife. Really simple to remove that yum. Once a knife exists, it's bread, rabbit pies, and mutton pies (there's no bucket, given sheep precede cows... so your tier suggestion suggests not going to tier 2). That's only 3 food varieties via the oven. So, eating all of the yum via the only needs a few food types eaten.

Compare that with making 7 of the 8 pie types before a knife, and 8 pie types plus bread once a knife. 7 > 1, and 8 > 3. So, in both cases just cooking as many yummy foods as soon as possible via the oven makes it more difficult for the yum supply to get drained out completely.

Greep wrote:

When we say "potatoes are bad" it's because you will never make it this far down the list with the mass production strategy. If you have somehow gotten that far down,, chances are you should be doing something other than producing variety food because way too many people are focusing on that.

The more food variety, the less probability that some generation depletes the yum supply or wears it down. When you all say 'potatoes are bad' you are wrong for any point in the game once an iron vein or two has gotten tapped and brought home. Your reasoning of them costing too much iron doesn't hold up, because of so much mulitpurpose newcomen engine technology costing so much iron.

You also seem to have a defeatist attitude with respect to yum on the big server Greep. I don't believe that holds up. As the length of this discussion shows and the resistance to considering potatoes as a seriously viable food at some point also shows, there exists an extreme resistance of experienced players trying to increase and maintain a strong yum supply of a settlement. If that resistance didn't exist, and people actually took the time to teach newer players about yum, then what you don't think can happen could.

Spoonwood · 2019-03-07 02:54:39

DestinyCall wrote:

I do not place much weight on the "yum value" of foods when determining efficiency, because ALL foods can gain a yum bonus, good or bad, efficient or inefficient.

Foods can only provide a yum bonus if not already eaten in one's yum chain. The only point at which all foods can provide a yum bonus are when a person is an Eve, or when eating a meal after having gotten breastfed. So, effectively, it is rarely the case that all foods can give a yum bonus. There exists far more time spent having eaten at least one meal in a yum chain than not having eaten a meal.

DestinyCall wrote:

That means that foods which have a better base food value are improved by yum bonus in the same way and to the same degree as foods that have a low base food value.

No, it does not. If a player eats popcorn, popcorn has constant value for that yum chain. Other foods have variable value depending on the length of the yum chain, which isn't determined until the yum chain gets broken someway.

DestinyCall wrote:

An inefficient, costly food isn't more efficient because you eat it when your yum chain is +14, even thought it now gives you more food from one bite.

Green beans at 21 yum not having been eaten in all of those 21 meals up to that point is more efficient than a berry if it had gotten eaten in that yum chain.

DestinyCall wrote:

Getting your chain high enough can eventually make any "bad" food into viable food option by adding enough pips to make-up for its lower base food value, but that food is still inefficient to produce compared with the available alternatives.

Inefficiency or efficiency of production concerns the amount of time needed to produce a food.

DestinyCall wrote:

I haven't talked that much about the fertility bonus aspect of yum, because I think it is moving away from the primary question of how to keep an entire village well-fed. Fertility rate only applies to a fraction of your village population. On average, half of your village will be male and about half of the female population will be either too old or too young to be reproductive. So at any given time only about a quarter of your village might be able to benefit from the fertility boost provided by yum.

No. You can't infer from an average to any particular situation like that validly. Statistical information only allows for probabilistic deduction, which means exceptions exist. Thus, a statement which says 'at any give time' won't work, because there only needs to exist one time for that statement to fail.

DestinyCall wrote:

Of course, there are times when your village has a lot more women, so more reproductive age women could be yumming to improve their birth rate.

Then it's not at any given time.

DestinyCall wrote:

But the more women you have in your village, the less you need to improve fertility rate. The larger number of mothers will increase your village's birthrate regardless of yum, so any additional bonus provided by yum will be largely unnecessary.

No, that doesn't necessarily hold. You would need to know the number of incoming players within the mom's fertility period, where they will sit in the fertility line, and where other moms on the server will sit in the fertility line also. A village can have 10 mothers in principle. But, if only 4 players decide to play during their fertility period, 10 moms have the same birthrate (in terms of the absolute number of babies born) as 6 moms (assuming that all babies go to this family).

DestinyCall wrote:

In fact, from a village perspective, the time when yum-based fertility provides the greatest benefit would be when the village has only a very small number of reproductive females.

I don't think that time comes as predictable as to when it will happen.

DestinyCall wrote:

In this special situation, the "rules" for yum change from what is best for everyone to a more selfish "yum as much as you can, as fast as you can" approach to yumming. The mother-to-be would want to raise her yum as high as possible during her childhood and prepare a wide selection of yum foods for her fertile period. Depending on the state of the village's food supply, this might include some "bad" foods which are costly to produce in larger amounts but quick to make from available resources, like green beans and berry pies.

Well, I feel encouraged that you've now put "bad" foods in quotes like you did. I'm smiling.

DestinyCall wrote:

Ideally, this woman would also focus on getting fully clothed and try to remain as close to ideal temperature as possible. In most villages, that would mean being in a closed building with a fire or right next to a fire for most of her fertile period, only leaving to quickly grab food shortly after birthing a child so she was in cool-down.

Perhaps. As it stands right now if a player has the most insulating clothing (a wolf hat, a sealskin coat, a rabbit fur loincloth, a pair of rabbit fur shoes) and a backpack, that player will have almost perfect temperature even if no fire exists on the whole server and hasn't for 70 years.

DestinyCall wrote:

Bottom-line, the fertility boost provided by high yum is worth considering in certain situations, but it doesn't change the math related to food efficiency. From the "whole village" perspective, green beans, fresh corn, and berry pies are still bad food.

I don't understand why you label it "whole village", when all of these efficiency calculations ignore the probability of the lineage having more children to keep on living.

DestinyCall wrote:

Tier 1 and Tier 2 foods are superior to Tier 3 and Tier 4 foods when mass-producing a variety of foods to feed the general populace.

No. I once spent a life as a child of an Eve almost entirely cooking eggs from like age 14 to late 50s (it was before the bigserver update, but still... I think eggs had gotten nerfed by then... it was just a spot with sooo many ponds closeby). Sometimes at least, eggs can get mass produced without domestic geese. As good as milk is, it's not relevant until it can reasonably get made. Wild food gathering I also find hard to argue against.

DestinyCall wrote:

Individual yummers can produce and eat "bad" foods to improve their personal yum bonus above the average, but this behavior is not sustainable on a larger scale.

Nah, I don't think so. It's not like large scale yum production and maintainence is getting tried is it? If it's not getting tried, then such a claim just comes as speculative.

DestinyCall wrote:

In most cases, it is just selfish and wasteful to aim for maximizing yum bonus in a multiplayer village, rather than focusing on sustainable and efficient food production for everyone.

Lol... sustainable food production for everyone, when the moms might not end up having babies, because their yum was lower than some other village with people trying to yum more. Lack of sustainability comes as clear on one point and one point only. Families that don't have girl children are not sustainable. Even a family with no food at home might survive with people foraging for it out of town, and at the very least, there exist some wild berry bushes with food on them out there somewhere.

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#76 2019-03-03 20:04:31

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#77 2019-03-03 23:30:58

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#78 2019-03-04 12:49:47

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#79 2019-03-04 13:56:30

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#80 2019-03-04 14:11:15

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#81 2019-03-04 20:50:21

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#82 2019-03-05 04:05:05

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#83 2019-03-05 04:44:03

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#84 2019-03-05 05:11:25

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#85 2019-03-05 05:22:18

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#86 2019-03-05 06:28:23

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#87 2019-03-05 07:40:22

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#88 2019-03-05 13:57:04

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#89 2019-03-05 14:00:52

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#90 2019-03-05 14:33:16

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#91 2019-03-05 17:57:31

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#92 2019-03-05 23:08:41

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#93 2019-03-06 01:45:43

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#94 2019-03-06 11:04:23

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#95 2019-03-06 11:31:11

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#96 2019-03-06 14:06:52

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#97 2019-03-06 14:54:29

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#98 2019-03-06 17:23:00

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#99 2019-03-07 02:10:30

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

#100 2019-03-07 02:54:39

Re: Yum bonus tutorial - step by step guide to start with x10 yum chain

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