Clothing... is coat warmer than hat?

Turnspender · 2018-03-14 14:10:55

I looked up the object files in GitHub, but still not sure warmth value of clothing items.
"rValue" seems to be doing something with it, but if I take that value, wool gear is colder than rabbit furs and a shoe is warmer than a shawl.
My eyes can't see any meaningful difference in the temp arrow position when trying out different clothes.

So... can anyone say something solid about cloth pieces effects?

Cryptodream · 2018-03-14 14:20:10

Check this post

InSpace · 2018-03-14 14:53:16

https://i.imgur.com/3hXWrtg.jpg

JuliusRex · 2018-03-14 17:01:38

I posted this on the linked post, but I'll post this here too.

Your body radiates (loses) a certain amount of heat over time, with a default value of 1. The rValue is a coefficient applied to that radiation, thus with an rValue of 0.6 you are radiating 40% less heat.

The rValue of your clothing is calculated as follows: 0.25*rValueOfHat + 0.35*rValueOfChest + 0.2*rValueOfButt + 0.1*rValueOfFrontShoe + 0.1*rValueOfBackShoe. Code here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … .cpp#L7361

So as you can see, as smaller rValue is better, with different categories of clothing having different weights (from most to least important: Chest->Hat->Butt->Shoes). Currently the best set of clothing is Wool Hat + Wool Sweater + Reed Skirt + Wool Booties.

Keep in mind that your rValue is only how fast you lose heat, thus putting on clothes wont immediately raise/lower your temperature. Your temperature is also evidently affected by the various heat sources around you, and if I'm not mistaken when you stand still your body heat will warm up the area around you (another reason why babies shouldn't be running around).

The actual heat map mechanics are pretty involved so I haven't had time to look into them properly yet, but anyone interested can find the code here: https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … .cpp#L7246. It looks like heated clothing is supported (maybe we'll get heat packs to put in our shoes in the future), and what you hold can produce heat as well (though things in non-held containers will not due to performance reasons).

Last edited by JuliusRex (2018-03-14 17:45:20)

InSpace · 2018-03-14 17:18:59

Wait, so lower values are actually better?

Like normally insulation is 1 and while wearing a wolfhat lowers it to 0,9?

JuliusRex · 2018-03-14 17:44:39

Think about it this way: your naked body loses 1 arbitrary unit of temperature per second (let's call that unit a joule). Of that 1 joule, your head is responsible for 0.25 joules, or 25% of the heat loss. A wolfpelt has an rValue(radiation value) of 0.9, which means that while wearing it your head will lose 90% of the heat it normally would (i.e it prevents 10% of the heat loss from your head).

Therefore, by putting on a wolfpelt you lower your heat loss from 1 joule/sec to 1-(0.1*0.25)=0.975 joule/sec.

For comparison, wearing a full set of wool clothes and a reed skirt would lower your heat loss to 0.68 joule/sec.

Last edited by JuliusRex (2018-03-14 18:10:58)

InSpace · 2018-03-14 18:21:20

Hmm aight

InSpace · 2018-03-14 18:22:35

But why is the rabbit fur piece for three furs better than the one for four?? Doesn't the piece for four look warmer

JuliusRex · 2018-03-14 18:35:36

InSpace wrote:

But why is the rabbit fur piece for three furs better than the one for four?? Doesn't the piece for four look warmer

I have no idea. The coat totally looks warmer than the shawl, and uses more resources too. It also doesn't make sense that a sealskin coat is the coldest piece of clothing in the game, while a reed skirt is the warmest. Idk if I'm missing something, but the code seems to check out.

katastic · 2018-03-14 20:29:46

This is clearly wrong and can be observed in-game by watching your temperature increase when you change items.

Even in your posted code:

> // clothing is additive to R value at center spot

and

> if( nextPlayer->clothing.hat != NULL ) {
> clothingR += headWeight * nextPlayer->clothing.hat->rValue;
> }

Each item is adding its value times the body part weighting factor.

Next time be sure before authoritatively telling people how something works.

JuliusRex · 2018-03-14 21:04:32

katastic wrote:

This is clearly wrong and can be observed in-game by watching your temperature increase when you change items.
Even in your posted code:
> // clothing is additive to R value at center spot
and
> if( nextPlayer->clothing.hat != NULL ) {
> clothingR += headWeight * nextPlayer->clothing.hat->rValue;
> }
Each item is adding its value times the body part weighting factor.
Next time be sure before authoritatively telling people how something works.

I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with here. I described above how your total rValue was calculated using different weights for different body parts, and gave several examples of this calculation. You seem to be agreeing this is indeed how it works?

I'm not claiming any authority in this matter, I'm just putting forth what little I've gleaned from looking over the source code.

DragonLily · 2018-03-14 21:15:26

I've tried the wool clothes ingame and their temp values are lower than the rabbit fur clothes. seems that you got something switched around unless it changed in the last update.

JuliusRex · 2018-03-14 21:25:01

Huh, let me go domesticate a mouflon and I'll get back to you on that

Turnspender · 2018-03-14 22:17:20

Thanks a lot, still a lot of things remain confusing, but at least a coat seems warmer than a shoe.

By the way, Life 7401 of server.cpp says...

// body itself produces 1 unit of heat
// (r value of clothing can hold this in
heatOutputGrid[ playerMapIndex ] += 1;

It sounds like more rValue means more heat for the wearer, but less for surrounding area. But even if so, it still doesn't make sense that wool does worse than rabbit fur while they are way less attainable. And mouflon hide does nothing.

Last edited by Turnspender (2018-03-14 22:26:41)

katastic · 2018-03-15 00:13:42

>I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with here.

--> Higher r_value = higher player heat retention.

That's why things that have no insulating value... have a zero r_value.

>if( nextPlayer->clothing.hat != NULL )
> clothingR += headWeight * nextPlayer->clothing.hat->rValue;

If wearing a hat, add to the current players "total heat/resistence" the head weighting factor * r_value.

Higher r_value means more is added to clothingR.

katastic · 2018-03-15 00:16:07

>But even if so, it still doesn't make sense that wool does worse than rabbit fur while they are way less attainable. And mouflon hide does nothing.

Mouflon is a bug. I posted a thread already about that and Jason took note of it.

Antarys · 2018-03-15 00:27:34

Wait, higher value is worst? How can the reed skirt be the best item in-game? I don't get it...

JuliusRex · 2018-03-15 00:28:27

katastic wrote:

>I'm not quite sure what you're disagreeing with here.
--> Higher r_value = higher player heat retention.
That's why things that have no insulating value... have a zero r_value.
>if( nextPlayer->clothing.hat != NULL )
> clothingR += headWeight * nextPlayer->clothing.hat->rValue;
If wearing a hat, add to the current players "total heat/resistence" the head weighting factor * r_value.
Higher r_value means more is added to clothingR.

Ah you're totally right. Tried actually wearing wool in place of fur (guess I should have done that before posting lol), it is quite noticeably colder immediately.
Which I guess makes my previous point about building up heat over time wrong as well. Also we don't really see our temperature bars gradually shifting very much, so that should have been a giveaway from the start. So higher rValue does mean more insulation, which doesn't make it at all clearer why wool is so bad (I guess it's dyable which is a bonus?), but does make sense when you compare a reed skirt to a sealskin coat.

My apologies for spreading misinformation, I should have experimented before jumping to conclusions.

katastic · 2018-03-15 04:16:45

Sorry if I sounded like a dick. It was like 3 AM and upon re-reading it seems overly harsh.

JuliusRex · 2018-03-15 04:40:01

katastic wrote:

Sorry if I sounded like a dick. It was like 3 AM and upon re-reading it seems overly harsh.

No worries , I appreciate the fact that getting the right information out to people is probably one of the most important parts of this game.
Imagine what would happen if someone started convincing new players that rabbits respawn faster if you kill them without a family, or that digging up gooseberry bushes allows you to replant them.
Chaos.

DragonLily · 2018-03-15 05:01:50

wool takes less, in the case of the wool sweater, so I guess if you spend most of your time farming that might be a bonus in some way; especially if you have some workshops indoors where it's warmer.

InSpace · 2018-03-15 05:12:46

I want more woolfarms, so that new players get some quick easy clothes. I want clothes when Imma babby

Dogamai · 2018-03-15 08:53:07

let me clear up some things maybe:

muflon hide is bug, that was mentioned.

but also, there is a reason why...

A) That shoes are more important than other articles of clothing: physiology. Think about it, you are wearing clothes, but your feet are bare and you are running around in the wet wilderness..... yes shoes have a bigger impact than most individual items of clothing.

B) That wool is less insulating than animal hides: because it is. Animal hide (ie, Leather + Fur) is insanely insulating. Evolution knows best. But the main reason wool is "worse" than hide is that wool clothing is significantly easier to mass produce than wild animal hide. Thus, technically wool is "better", but not in raw insulation, its a combined value.

Last edited by Dogamai (2018-03-15 08:56:04)

JuliusRex · 2018-03-15 13:08:35

Dogamai wrote:

but also, there is a reason why...
A) That shoes are more important than other articles of clothing: physiology. Think about it, you are wearing clothes, but your feet are bare and you are running around in the wet wilderness..... yes shoes have a bigger impact than most individual items of clothing.

If you look at the weights assigned to each body part (https://github.com/jasonrohrer/OneLife/ … cpp/#L7409) they are as follows:
Head: 0.25
Chest:0.35
Butt: 0.2
Shoes: 0.1 each
Back: 0.1
So it seems like shoes are actually the least/second least important article of clothing.

Dogmai wrote:

B) That wool is less insulating than animal hides: because it is. Animal hide (ie, Leather + Fur) is insanely insulating. Evolution knows best. But the main reason wool is "worse" than hide is that wool clothing is significantly easier to mass produce than wild animal hide. Thus, technically wool is "better", but not in raw insulation, its a combined value.

Hmm, that does make sense. Making wool clothes doesn't even require thread, though a bowl of carrot/berries per wool is not too cheap either (an epoch/berry bowl is comparable to an epoch/rabbit). Unless I've been overfeeding my sheep, does anyone know if you have to feed them each time you shear?

Znote · 2018-03-15 22:51:16

Where did you get the rValue? I cant find the definition in the source code.

Assuming this formula with the rValues posted above:
clothingR += headWeight * nextPlayer->clothing.hat->rValue;

With this body distribution:
Head: 0.25
Chest: 0.35
Butt: 0.2
Shoes: 0.1 each
Back: 0.1

These are the values:
0.2975 = Rabbit Fur Coat = 0.85 * Chest
0.245 = Rabbit Fur Shall = 0.7 * Chest
0.175 = Wool Sweater = 0.5 * Chest

0.225 = Wolf Hat = 0.9 * Head
0.2125 = Rabbit Fur Hat = 0.85 * Head
0.125 = Wool Hat = 0.5 * Head

0.17 = Rabbit Loincloth = 0.85 * Butt
0.12 = Reed Skirt = 0.6 * Butt
0.1 = Wool Booty = 0.5 * Butt

0.017 = Two Rabbit Fur Shoe = (0.85 * Shoes) * 2
0.0085 = Rabbit Fur Shoe = 0.85 * Shoes

Mouflon Hide = ??
Sealskin Coat = ??

Good combo seems to be:
Rabbit fur Coat
Wolf Hat
Rabbit Loincloth
Two Rabbit Fur Shoe

Which totals up to: 0.7095 (Is hunger rate reduced by 70-71%)?
Insulation rate 70-71%?

Last edited by Znote (2018-03-15 23:10:43)

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Clothing... is coat warmer than hat?

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