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#1 2018-06-01 02:18:32

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 1,022

Update: Small Farm

This week's update lays the groundwork for the Big Farm update that is coming next week.

The biggest content additions this week are corn farming, a straw hat, and a high-capacity source of sewing thread from wool.

But the underlying resource systems have been given a complete overhaul.

Water sources now have a fixed, low refill rate, and emptying any source to the bottom is inconsequential, but higher and higher tech water sources have larger and larger capacity.  With a deep well and a bucket, water can now be moved 10 units at a time.  Moving large quantities of water around is way more efficient, if you reach that level of technology.  Wells must be built on top of natural water sources, making cisterns much more useful for on-site water storage far away from a well site.  Wells now have a visual indication of how full they are, so you know when you need to start building a new one.

Soil is now a necessary, consumed ingredient for all farming activities, which means it's easier to balance the value of various foods now and in the future (carrots no longer have a huge leg up, because they consume soil too).  This has been balanced by making natural soil much more plentiful, and compost much more productive.  Tilling is now needed to work soil into the ground instead of to re-work a hardened carrot row.

These changes pave the way for even more advanced water sources and soil fertility technology in the distant future, but also for farming of other, balanced food types in the immediate future.

As promised, blue roses are in there too.

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#2 2018-06-01 03:38:47

karltown_veteran
Member
Registered: 2018-04-15
Posts: 51

Re: Update: Small Farm

Will you still need sheep to compost? Because if you do a starting village will have to rely on soil being close and plentiful enough to last at least four generations (as long as it generally takes a successful village to create a pen and raise sheep). Otherwise it won’t be retrieved fast enough to sustain a growing town’s needs and also who wants to spend twenty minutes running through the arctic to retrieve four plots of soil that will require changing in the next five minutes.
You should also decrease the composting time by a lot because in large cities you have to eat through a lot of soil for every crop round to sustain a village of that size. There’s no point (or fun) in keeping the farms and population small.
Side note- Their should be some more efficient way to store soil than one at a time. I imagine a town storing fourteen soil in baskets around the growing carrots could get messy. And fourteen soil is fine for one round, but if a village were smart they would plan ahead with soil. That could be up to forty two soil littered around. Also it could be easy to slowly steal soil from the edges without anyone noticing. Maybe soil mines, holes where  soil can be stored after it composts, to make way for new composts. It could just be a hole.
If you’re still using sheep, maybe you could make them produce dung without being fed? It would waste quite a lot of carrot-berry just on one round of soil. I dont suggest sheep for that reason, and also because it would be easily griefable. If a city had no nearby soil and all their sheep were killed, they would not survive long enough to get sheep, breed sheep and compost sheep dung.
At least we don’t have to waste any more metal on those pesky hoes.
That was long, sorry.
P.S. I love the roses! Curious as to what purpose the corn will serve.

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#3 2018-06-01 05:30:58

Acozi
Member
Registered: 2018-05-31
Posts: 43

Re: Update: Small Farm

I'm sure he has more to come but you can plop soil down closer at least. Each node has eight(?) Soil now too and I found it everywhere. Domestic berries a bit better at the moment with water buff?

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#4 2018-06-01 06:25:35

KeyboardWario
Member
Registered: 2018-06-01
Posts: 6

Re: Update: Small Farm

Cool update people like corn from what I can tell. Game still hard as nails XD

Last edited by KeyboardWario (2018-06-01 06:25:55)

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#5 2018-06-01 08:08:08

Lily
Member
Registered: 2018-03-29
Posts: 311

Re: Update: Small Farm

Fertile soil gives 10 soil, then you can use shove to dig it up and get 9 more. So that is 19 soil from a single pit. So there is enough time to get things set up for composting, which now gives 8 per.

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#6 2018-06-04 06:07:40

yvanhooe
Member
Registered: 2018-01-01
Posts: 134

Re: Update: Small Farm

I have stopped playing a bit after the apocalypse. At the time I thought I was starting to get bored about the game and that re-starting from digging carrots was not my idea of fun. I thought I'd make a break and come back later to play with a bit more advanced tech.

Two months later: "Ok, last time I was there the forge was the most advanced workshop, what do we have there?" "Corn!" OK, I'll pass.

I understand one can't do everything at the same time, but here the tech tree seems to extend horizontally but not vertically at all. Where is the glassmaking? chemistry? weaving? masonry? jewelery?

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#7 2018-06-04 16:09:33

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 1,022

Re: Update: Small Farm

For what purpose?  Just for the sake of making something out of glass?

If I just piled tech on top, you'd build it once, and then never build it again after you experienced the novelty.  I did add some chemistry after you left (in the form of dyes for clothing), but after a few days of running around with red hats, people stopped going to the trouble of making dye.  There was no good reason to make it.

I have to make it so that you NEED glass and chemistry.  So that those things are optimal.

I can't do that on a foundation of infinite carrots or even finite monocrops.  I imagine that glass will be used for food storage (canning), but you'll have to have some food that needs storage.


I'm not building the tech tree with some high-level goal in mind, top-down.  I'm instead looking at what tech we currently have and thinking:  Where can I go from here?  What's the next step?  And most importantly, what would people who had this current tech be desperately trying to make next?  Probably not glass or gunpowder.... they'd probably be trying to farm some more crops and domesticate some more animals.

They'd all have orange skin from vitamin A poisoning by now...


Also, things like jewelry or maybe even masonry and glass (for windows) are kind of in the "entertainment" category, which people would only pursue once they had the basics of survival ironed out.  That's why the fabric dyes were putting the cart before the horse.  More food tech is needed before people care about the color of their clothing.

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#8 2018-06-04 20:42:41

Potjeh
Member
Registered: 2018-03-08
Posts: 223

Re: Update: Small Farm

I just want to say this was an amazing update that fixed so many crucial things that needed fixing. I'd still prefer it if wells were finite and had to be rebuilt every two or three generations, but the current implementation works too (a shame well building is restricted to just a couple of generations, though). And if this is supposed to be a small update, I can't wait to see what a big one is.

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#9 2018-06-05 00:36:37

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 1,022

Re: Update: Small Farm

Potjeh, I think the pond water exploit may have been muddying the waters here.

The idea with wells and ponds is that they refill too slowly to be long-term dependable, and that you would have to build more.

I think I may have made them refill too fast.... but 2 water per hour for pond and shallow and 20 water per hour for deep is pretty slow.

Anyway, hard to tell because the pond exploit was in there too, meaning that people didn't need wells at all.  And the same exploit applied to wells, so you could keep them full forever.

Now that it's fixed, we'll have to see how things shake out before I make further adjustments.

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#10 2018-06-05 09:31:21

Potjeh
Member
Registered: 2018-03-08
Posts: 223

Re: Update: Small Farm

Not really a fan of the idea of needing to go ever further to get water, and wells out in the wilderness would look kinda silly. Getting water should be a job accessible to kids, IMO. The adults could quarry rocks and build wells so the kids can avoid taking big trips with their little hunger bars.

Last edited by Potjeh (2018-06-05 09:31:54)

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#11 2018-06-05 12:04:03

Christoffer
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 107
Website

Re: Update: Small Farm

I like the update with wells built on resource spots. I do think it would be even better if the resource item was separated from the ponds though. It makes sense to dig for water in the other biomes and not really in the swamp lands. A medium rare occurrence (more rare in rocky and desert) would make sense.
I also think shallow wells ought to be faster at generating water than ponds.

Good update. Curious about what the next will bring!


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#12 2018-06-05 15:09:33

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 1,022

Re: Update: Small Farm

Yeah, like a damp spot or spring where a well can be dug?

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#13 2018-06-05 15:46:34

Christoffer
Member
From: Sweden
Registered: 2018-04-06
Posts: 107
Website

Re: Update: Small Farm

jasonrohrer wrote:

Yeah, like a damp spot or spring where a well can be dug?

Something like that would make sense. If you prefer symbolism I guess that a divining rod stuck into the ground would also serve.
Unlike ponds, this item wouldn’t yield any water until you have constructed the well.


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#14 2018-06-05 20:18:24

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 164

Re: Update: Small Farm

I think having to build wells far from home is good, makes it necessary to preserve information about their location.

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#15 2018-06-05 22:46:02

Lily
Member
Registered: 2018-03-29
Posts: 311

Re: Update: Small Farm

Would be nice if the ponds were pretty common in the swamps, then you could have springs where wells can be dug in any biome, but they were a lot rarer.

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#16 2018-06-06 05:37:56

yvanhooe
Member
Registered: 2018-01-01
Posts: 134

Re: Update: Small Farm

jasonrohrer wrote:

For what purpose?  Just for the sake of making something out of glass?

In these kind of games, I think it is natural to expect the players to want to climb the tech tree. If you are looking about purpose, keep in mind that you designed the game in a way that surviving has less meaning than in other games, so arguably, yes, hunting for novelty is probably an acceptable goal. Once you have crafted all the objects there are in the game, I doubt people continue to play it for super long after that.

But my idea for glassware was to enable chemistry, some additional cooking and possibly windows (it would make sense that a building without openings would be totally dark). If I understand correctly, you consider everything in the game needs a purpose toward survivability of the characters. Which currently means agriculture application as we have no warfare or disease. Chemistry can be used for fertilizer, extracting things like rennets from animals, distilling alcohol (which historically allows safer drinks than untreated water). Glasshouses have a direct use.

If we are going into the lens-polishing thing, there is plenty more ideas.


I have to make it so that you NEED glass and chemistry.  So that those things are optimal.

The only things we need now are food and clothing. And I guarantee that if climbing the tech tree meant these two things would be produced more easily, we would be pumping out chemistry and glass items.

I can't do that on a foundation of infinite carrots or even finite monocrops.  I imagine that glass will be used for food storage (canning), but you'll have to have some food that needs storage.

Well between the various meats, the carrots, onions, wheat, berries, there is room for a ton of recipes and stored food. Especially since food starts rotting.


I'm not building the tech tree with some high-level goal in mind, top-down.  I'm instead looking at what tech we currently have and thinking:  Where can I go from here?  What's the next step?  And most importantly, what would people who had this current tech be desperately trying to make next?  Probably not glass or gunpowder.... they'd probably be trying to farm some more crops and domesticate some more animals.

Personally I would want to make irrigation: pipes and pumps, windpower, and try more convenient (and varied) ways to make clothes.

I wish trade would appear but I doubt it can happen with the one hour interval, random positioning and limited communication.

Also, things like jewelry or maybe even masonry and glass (for windows) are kind of in the "entertainment" category, which people would only pursue once they had the basics of survival ironed out.  That's why the fabric dyes were putting the cart before the horse.  More food tech is needed before people care about the color of their clothing.

I really think that's a game design choice here: you can make food harder and more complicated to get in order to make the few "luxury" items more scarce, there is no limit to how complicated food production can be and the system has already change many, many times. Or you can accept that a city may have a sustainable food supply and be able to divert some resources to a bit of industry, and you'll see plenty of dyed clothes and jewelery.

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#17 2018-06-08 13:14:25

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 164

Re: Update: Small Farm

yvanhooe wrote:

Once you have crafted all the objects there are in the game, I doubt people continue to play it for super long after that.

Most games don't have crafting, there are other reasons to play.

jasonrohrer wrote:

I'm not building the tech tree with some high-level goal in mind, top-down.  I'm instead looking at what tech we currently have and thinking:  Where can I go from here?  What's the next step?  And most importantly, what would people who had this current tech be desperately trying to make next?  Probably not glass or gunpowder.... they'd probably be trying to farm some more crops and domesticate some more animals.

"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

Technology depends not only on people's needs, but also on physics. You don't have that limitation since you're the one creating physics in the game.

Unless they're from Earth and they're remembering Earth technology, not inventing? In which case they'd be gunning for electricity.

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#18 2018-06-08 13:34:28

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 164

Re: Update: Small Farm

yvanhooe, I suggest you find the example of glassware that would be the most useful in the game right now. Once glass is in the game, adding more types of glassware will be easier.

That's how all general purpose technology is invented: first there's one application that is worth spending resources inventing the new technology, then other applications become possible because the technology is already there and just needs to be adapted, which is cheaper.

(I really want to make a multiplayer game about roads and factories :s)

Last edited by Kinrany (2018-06-08 13:35:07)

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#19 2018-06-08 21:31:05

Lilizard
Member
Registered: 2018-06-08
Posts: 3

Re: Update: Small Farm

jasonrohrer wrote:

Also, things like jewelry or maybe even masonry and glass (for windows) are kind of in the "entertainment" category, which people would only pursue once they had the basics of survival ironed out.  That's why the fabric dyes were putting the cart before the horse.  More food tech is needed before people care about the color of their clothing.

I'm sorry for stating the obvious, but I think for inspiration you should look more (than already) at our very early civilisations. I mean the first ones: they were foraging and hunting.

Obviously you got foraging covered, and even the next step from that - farming. But hunting? We got rabbits and geese (they don't respawn?). But there is a lot more animals in the game. Right now hunting wolves and seals gives us only fur. Mutton you have to make into pie (I think?), which is great but also - next step. Right now bows are mostly murder tools, while it should (in my mind) be one of greater food sources at this point. Meat could (again, in my mind) be cooked on fire like rabbits, or with a bowl, ... dunno, carrot and a berry to make a stew?

My point is: Early people got lots of roasts for dinner! Give us meat!

Then, IMO next step from that should be food storage. I mean some kind of primitive ice chamber? That would give new purpose to building huts, and maybe that glass? Wood doesn't work well with much moisture after all... And there are already snow piles and frozen ponds in game.  Just something to think about...

But farming update is great anyway. New water system is much more natural.

Last edited by Lilizard (2018-06-08 23:04:12)

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