1 0 0 G E N E R A T I O N S R E A C H E D

TrustyWay · 2018-04-11 15:14:21

Bois, nice village/farm, cool attitude, grief filtring.

Bravo !

bbinmass · 2018-04-11 16:00:35

Nice achievement. Kudos. I do applaud the effort your team put in. But I was saddened to see what it cost to do it.

graveyard
the bodies of all the other souls on server 6 that were murdered in the xenophobic paranoia pursuit of 100 generations

Congrats.

Alleria · 2018-04-11 16:28:26

Literally tens of thousands died in order to achieve this goal. I personally died more than 300 times.

TrustyWay · 2018-04-11 16:36:30

I participate a little after the 100, not before but hell yeah, game will be harder. I hope we eill have diseases and plagues, or a chance to build civilizations.

Last edited by TrustyWay (2018-04-11 16:36:56)

Lily · 2018-04-11 16:38:37

I definitely see that as cheating at the game, since the game is designed specifically to limit how much you can speak as a key game feature and they were using voice chat. I know they probably don't care if they cheat, but it isn't much different than playing on a sever where berries respawn every 2 seconds then saying you never starved.

Alacandor · 2018-04-11 17:26:29

i agree with lily. it isn t possible to talk ingame like in a chat and therefor it destroys the meaning of counting the generations on the website. nice record, but it would be better, if only truthfully records would be shown on the website.

nevertheless, respect at all

bread_lord · 2018-04-11 18:33:43

I was able to participate today to reach the goal of 111 and it was quite an enjoyable experience.

Re: oppositional posts, I assume the argument is that in order to be considered legitimate, a family line would have had to consist only of unrelated players coordinating exclusively in-game. It is not an unfair argument, but it does boil down to differing opinions on styles of gameplay. Since the game's creator has never expressed opposition to voice chat, it then falls to players to define what is and is not within the spirit of the game and, of course, it is unlikely everyone will agree (for instance, to a purist, all forms of external communication violate the spirit of the game -- including these forums). Once upon a time, the fact that raiding in MMOs was facilitated by external addons and voip was something that also inspired bitter debate.

It is fair to point out that, yes, voice chat and player vouching played a large role in accomplishing the generational goal. All parties should be able to agree that it would have been very difficult, if not impossible, to have achieved such a high number using only the tools available within the game. Perhaps a more fruitful avenue of debate would focus on why that is: I know that Jason has repeatedly indicated that his desire is for all civs to die out eventually, but what is "eventually"? I would wager that few natural generations extend into the double digits. If these generations are meant to be extending into the 40s and 50s, it is likely that more tools are needed to allow for neutralizing of deliberately noxious playstyles. With a willingness to learn, a new and/or inexperienced player is a liability only for a short time; a player truly dedicated to undermining the efforts of others is quite difficult to effectively combat (there are undesirables in real life too, of course, but real life does not offer the ability to respawn).

StormmyT · 2018-04-11 19:49:08

bread_lord wrote:

Re: oppositional posts, I assume the argument is that in order to be considered legitimate, a family line would have had to consist only of unrelated players coordinating exclusively in-game. It is not an unfair argument, but it does boil down to differing opinions on styles of gameplay. Since the game's creator has never expressed opposition to voice chat, it then falls to players to define what is and is not within the spirit of the game and, of course, it is unlikely everyone will agree (for instance, to a purist, all forms of external communication violate the spirit of the game -- including these forums). Once upon a time, the fact that raiding in MMOs was facilitated by external addons and voip was something that also inspired bitter debate.

A statement like this comes across as either insincere or ignorant.

For starters, OHOL has a very specific system that limits communication based on age. Voice chat completely circumvents this. I'd say that very much goes against the spirit of the game and you're fooling yourself if you think that's up for debate.

Next you have the external organizational effort to force a closed group of players to keep spawning with each other. Again, the spirit of the game isn't to play with a pre-organized group of people. Jason (the game's creator) has publicly expressed his opinion on this in the past (playing with friends), and while it seems he's toyed with the idea, ultimately it sounds like he's come to the conclusion that it's not within his core vision of the game and is something better left for private servers. See this topic for his posts: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=138 - I'll quote a few of the relevant lines below.

jasonrohrer wrote:

There is a chance that you will be born along with your friends, but babies also get spread out randomly. There is no built-in friend feature. That's not really what this game is about... it's about different situations in every life.

jasonrohrer wrote:

This game isn't about playing with friends. You're right about the alienation issue too, with cliques of people who are on voice chat, but who never speak/chat in the game. A bunch of silent, well-organized people who seem to be telepathic.
I agree that it would make the game worse, probably.

So is it a legitimate, "within the spirit of the game" strategy? Evidence points towards "no".

In the end, is it a big deal that's ruining my game play experience? Probably not.

But why not do it on a private server? That's effectively what's been accomplished on a public server in this case with the active player vouching. Just with the added potential of souring other players' experiences and skewing some game stats that could otherwise provide some interesting data on the state of the player base.

Ka · 2018-04-11 20:15:58

I agree with StormmyT.

StormmyT wrote:

is it a legitimate, "within the spirit of the game" strategy? Evidence points towards "no".

Lily · 2018-04-11 20:25:43

bread_lord wrote:

Since the game's creator has never expressed opposition to voice chat, it then falls to players to define what is and is not within the spirit of the game and, of course, it is unlikely everyone will agree (for instance, to a purist, all forms of external communication violate the spirit of the game -- including these forums).

There is an entire game mechanic based around limiting speech, and having older characters communicating better than younger ones. There is no way an honest person can say that using voice chat doesn't violate the spirit of the game.

All the other stuff, playing with friends, killing people outside of your group, coming up with a plan prior to playing the game, all those are in a grey area and can reasonably be debated. Some will agree, some will disagree. However the chat system is a core mechanic. Clearly going around it is cheating and violates the spirit of the game. You are not going to get banned for it or anything, but if definitely cheapens the game and devalues the achievement.

Zwilnik · 2018-04-11 20:44:39

It’s an open game where the author releases the source code for you to do what you want with it and has stated that he doesn’t want rules. So there’s not really a lot that truly qualifies as cheating.

stickyflypaper · 2018-04-11 20:49:30

My head cannon for this record family lineage: They were all telepathic!

Lily · 2018-04-11 20:51:21

Zwilnik wrote:

It’s an open game where the author releases the source code for you to do what you want with it and has stated that he doesn’t want rules. So there’s not really a lot that truly qualifies as cheating.

Well of course no one cares if you play on a custom server, can do anything then. Though the main server is for the normal, default game. Using voice chat on the main server, is pretty much cheating. There is no consequences for it, kind of like using cheat codes in a single player game. It is still cheating however.

Pernicious · 2018-04-11 20:53:22

The only thing that really matters, is the dev can't stop people from using discord/skype/ect.

And it is a drastic advantage over all other players not using it. But there is nothing that can be done about it (Since this is PC, not console). People are just going to cheat and theres nothing anyone can do about this particular cheat.

IronBear · 2018-04-11 23:01:40

I say kudos on these guys. To me it feels like the Creator has went out of his way to make the game Griefer friendly and left it up to the players to cope.

There are more stories that this game can tell than that of desperate survival and coping with griefers. The game mechanics unwittingly lend themselves to a surprising amount of roleplaying. I see affection, pride, justice, duty, and remorse naturally bubbling up between players. This game has a lot more to do about morality than survival. But the myopic focus on survival is hamstringing it.

I personally would love to join in that group and check out how it is culturally different. See how much, if any role-playing they do.

bread_lord · 2018-04-11 23:11:10

StormmyT wrote:

A statement like this comes across as either insincere or ignorant.

Forgive me if it was not your intent, but you are reading as very hostile and I would point out that I have never concretely defined my own stance on this matter. I was not a core member of this generational project and I only participated for the span of a single life (not counting the six or so minutes I was alive before falling to a connection error) an hour or so after the event was opened to all who wished to participate on discord. What's more, I do not personally own a mic and was limited to in-game text. Having played in excess of 140 hours entirely "in the spirit of the game", I thought the experience of joining others whose voices I could hear might make for a novel experience. It did. It was never my intention to die on a hill in defense of a high score so there is no need to treat me as an enemy combatant.

StormmyT wrote:

For starters, OHOL has a very specific system that limits communication based on age. Voice chat completely circumvents this. I'd say that very much goes against the spirit of the game and you're fooling yourself if you think that's up for debate.

What about players who live together and can speak to each other outside of the game? How do we handle "real life" voice chat? OHOL also has a system wherein players cannot accumulate a list of known recipes (relying instead on mousing over objects and tabbing through a list of immediate byproducts). It was perhaps Jason's intent that players teach each other, yet he also acknowledged the value of external information:

"Please make as many guides as you want to make. They often teach ME things about the game that I didn't even realize (like how much milkweed is needed to make a backpack from scratch), which in turn helps me balance the game. The only thing I can control is what's INSIDE the game.... like what hints are given there, etc. But OUTSIDE the game, I expect people to talk about and write about anything and everything!"

StormmyT wrote:

Next you have the external organizational effort to force a closed group of players to keep spawning with each other. Again, the spirit of the game isn't to play with a pre-organized group of people. Jason (the game's creator) has publicly expressed his opinion on this in the past (playing with friends), and while it seems he's toyed with the idea, ultimately it sounds like he's come to the conclusion that it's not within his core vision of the game and is something better left for private servers. See this topic for his posts: https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=138 - I'll quote a few of the relevant lines below.
jasonrohrer wrote:
There is a chance that you will be born along with your friends, but babies also get spread out randomly. There is no built-in friend feature. That's not really what this game is about... it's about different situations in every life.
jasonrohrer wrote:
This game isn't about playing with friends. You're right about the alienation issue too, with cliques of people who are on voice chat, but who never speak/chat in the game. A bunch of silent, well-organized people who seem to be telepathic. I agree that it would make the game worse, probably.

What about baby codes, such as the one currently proposed to identify "forum readers"? Would that sort of thing not also represent a pre-organized group of people should it result in the widespread abandonment of "F babies"?

It's also fair to point out that Jason has also changed his mind on certain topics. For instance, Jason was initially against wells refilling:

"A lot of people ask to be able to repair or refill the well, but that’s not interesting to me. It’s one weird trick you can use to recover from catastrophe and it becomes busywork. It’s much more interesting if there’s a hard failure, it’s a very dramatic turning point for the community if the well done gone dry! That’s interesting, and if there isn’t a good way to recover from it players have to come together and have a culture around well usage."

StormmyT wrote:

So is it a legitimate, "within the spirit of the game" strategy? Evidence points towards "no". [...]why not do it on a private server? That's effectively what's been accomplished on a public server in this case with the active player vouching. Just with the added potential of souring other players' experiences and skewing some game stats that could otherwise provide some interesting data on the state of the player base.

You raise a good point about why the effort was done on the public servers rather than on a private server. I cannot speak for the group in question but I imagine the reason boils down to, "because it's more fun if the result ends up being displayed on the website." I personally have no opinion on the matter.

On the subject of strategies, I would argue that it's quite difficult to define what is and isn't a "legitimate strategy" in this game because OHOL is and has always been in a constant state of flux. While Jason often stated that the goal of the game was to work together to "rebuild civilization", he has also stated that "[he does] want all civs to crash eventually." To that end, he has changed many mechanics and eliminated many strategies that players could not have known were "illegitimate". Apparently, it was an unintended exploit that players were able to survive on carrots indefinitely while ignoring wheat and berries. Players adapted and began to understand compost cycles to sustain their farms, but this too was deemed unintended and worms were added. Players adapted to that change and developed the current strategy of relying on wild carrot seeds. Jason is planning on eliminating that strategy, as well.

While voice chat is a strategy that he cannot so easily remove, he did give us the ability to choose which public servers we spawn on. In so doing, he (perhaps unintentionally) allowed players to accomplish certain things that might also be considered outside of the intended experience. As I write this, there are six official servers with 0 players and two servers with 1 player. By spawning on these empty servers, a single player can build a civilization entirely by themselves utilizing the solo-eve-old-age respawn mechanic to accomplish what would ordinarily require many players and many generations. When the apocalypse was added at least one player managed to trigger it by doing just this. Certainly the effects of that were much more impactful than what this group accomplished.

YAHG · 2018-04-11 23:40:18

bread_lord wrote:

...

I am going to obfuscate and use my intellect and lots of words to try to pretend me and a group of friends using 3rd party shit to get around game mechanics that influence difficulty doesn't count and we didn't cheat to set a new record.
Full of shit.
This is because it IS insincere either that or you are too dumb to realize the above.

I for one think assuming stupidity over ill intent is just a mark of moral cowardice.

jord1990 · 2018-04-11 23:54:11

YAHG wrote:

bread_lord wrote:
...
I am going to obfuscate and use my intellect and lots of words to try to pretend me and a group of friends using 3rd party shit to get around game mechanics that influence difficulty doesn't count and we didn't cheat to set a new record.
Full of shit.
This is because it IS insincere either that or you are too dumb to realize the above.
I for one think assuming stupidity over ill intent is just a mark of moral cowardice.

Good talk dude, thanks for the adition.

Laddy · 2018-04-11 23:54:16

Geez, I don’t think they did anything wrong, they didn’t cheat the game. It’s probably different when playing in the proper Timezone but in Victoria most of the time when I play I respawn in the same village, sometimes as an eve, but even when I die as an eve I normally respawn to my kid. This allows me to do what these guys did but just on a smaller scale and by myself. You’re all saying that using voice chat is cheating and ruining the spirit of the game but to me it’s more that the communication system in the game isn’t perfect yet. You should be able to communicate with sound, as that is what happens in real life, which is what the game is based off.

bread_lord · 2018-04-11 23:57:43

YAHG wrote:

bread_lord wrote:
...
I am going to obfuscate and use my intellect and lots of words to try to pretend me and a group of friends using 3rd party shit to get around game mechanics that influence difficulty doesn't count and we didn't cheat to set a new record.
Full of shit.
This is because it IS insincere either that or you are too dumb to realize the above.
I for one think assuming stupidity over ill intent is just a mark of moral cowardice.

A pity you failed to read even the first paragraph of my post.

bread_lord wrote:

I was not a core member of this generational project and I only participated for the span of a single life [...] an hour or so after the event was opened to all who wished to participate

In other words, I was not involved in the setting of the thread-referenced record and my contribution boils down to having taken screenshots of the city after the group had achieved their goal and had extended an invitation to "come have some fun" and "experience the blood line". Whatever your grievances, please direct your ad hominem attacks at a more appropriate target.

Last edited by bread_lord (2018-04-12 01:37:02)

Portager · 2018-04-12 00:05:32

I have enjoyed watching bits of this on twitch. Is it rule breaking, no. Is it cheating, no. Is it unfair, not really.

This game has no rules, anything goes, that is the nature of any sandbox game. Ultimately, we are all capable of also doing what these players are doing, and if somebody wanted to put the effort in they could form a whole new band of players on the same server and migrate to this camp and grief them. Anything goes, it is a level playing field.

With that being said, is it against the vision of the game, yes. Jason's vision is that each new spawn will be its own story, separate from other lives. It is also his vision that players should have limited communication and should have to work together within the game mechanics to survive. Sooner or later he will do something to nerf the type of playing we are seeing now (my guess is that it will be a spawning cooldown), just like her nerfed the apocolypse. So if you want to join in, now is the time to do so, this kind of gameplay might not be possible in a week.

Last edited by Portager (2018-04-12 00:10:05)

veene · 2018-04-12 00:58:32

I agree with most of you that it was not played the way the game was intended to be played. However it was played the way dedicated/hard core players play, and that style of play is very important in improving a game in the right direction. You need people min-maxing and finding ways to push the limits for the developer to become aware of said limits. The village was great, and huge props to all the guys who put in some serious hours!

bread_lord · 2018-04-12 01:08:57

Portager wrote:

I have enjoyed watching bits of this on twitch. Is it rule breaking, no. Is it cheating, no. Is it unfair, not really.

To play devil's advocate for a moment, it might be possible to argue that the achievement was "unfair" to a segment of the playerbase should it influence the balancing of future features. Jason is currently in discord chatting about upcoming updates and continues to tease a mysterious "multi-generational" project. He expressed interest in this group's achievement, asking how long it took to accomplish and what ended up defeating them, and mentioned he may aim for roughly half the invested hours as a requirement for his new feature. If that results in a feature that's tuned in such a way as to be out of reach of all but groups coordinating very carefully I'm hopeful he will tweak it accordingly just as he tweaked in the wake of the original soil update as well as the apocalypse update.

The consensus seems to be that the usage of voice chat is an inevitability much like the usage of external wikis and guides and that there is very little to be done about it. Instead, the dev's focus appears to be on making these kinds of achievements extremely difficult even with voice chat (hence his concern that what ultimately undid the family line was boredom) and how this is accomplished without alienating too much of the population remains to be seen. We are all in this ride together, and I think part of the charm of this game is the fact that it inspires such heated debate about what essentially boils down to a high score with (hopefully) very little impact on the game itself. Provided the discussion remains civil I really do think that's a good thing!

Lily · 2018-04-12 01:23:46

I am not too upset about it, but it is definitely cheating to use voice chat. I am sure Jason doesn't care too much, because it is basically a harmless form of cheating. They are basically only cheating themselves by making the game way easier than it is meant to be. Which is probably why they got bored fairly quickly.

jord1990 · 2018-04-12 01:29:06

Lily wrote:

I am not too upset about it, but it is definitely cheating to use voice chat. I am sure Jason doesn't care too much, because it is basically a harmless form of cheating. They are basically only cheating themselves by making the game way easier than it is meant to be. Which is probably why they got bored fairly quickly.

Wait. did you say that is why we got bored fairly quickly? You do realise setting this record did take more than 40 hours in a row right?

I mean if you wanna keep going after going for that long with 5-6 hour sleep break in between and push ot further to 200 be my guest

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