Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

Spoonwood · 2020-12-12 21:36:45

Dodge wrote:

Do you not understand?
I will repeat it then, it would take too much time to solve in game drama and figure out if someone is truly worth a ban and not some annoying roleplayer/dumb idiot/actual in game event happening for a reason/anything else you can think of.
And any automated system would have a risk of catching someone innocent like the ones mentionned above.

I've responded to such a claim above. You can read it above if you like. I stand by what I said, when I said that there does exist enough time to do so.

And by the author's own admission, he has repeated himself.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 21:37:30)

Dodge · 2020-12-13 04:03:31

Yes someone will stay on VOG 24/7 and spy on everyone to try and figure out if someone is griefing or actually playing the game you are both delusionnal.

Or maybe he should hire a team of 10 people specialized in analyzing behavior to figure out if an action is part of an going event in the game or the act of someone here just to cause trouble.

"It's not that different from forum moderation, really"

It's completely different than forum moderation you mean, on a forum you can set clear rules like dont say "retard" or dont make topics targeted at one member of the comunity but in the game what would be the rule?

Dont kill someone?

Oops no that doesn't work obviously

Dont destroy stuff?

Oh cant destroy an old forge then? Whoops

Dont steal stuff?

But stealing could be part of an ongoing story in the game, Oh damn

"Harassment might take the form of repeatedly stealing from someone's Eve camp"

Oh so stealing from different Eve camps not from the same person would be fine then?

If i repeatedly kill people from the same village would that be harassment?

What if we are at war with them?

JUST DONT GRIEF LOL

But what constitutes griefing then?

Because we already established that the above can be both justified or griefing depending on the context.

And even IF we could define clear rules to follow, how do we figure out that context, watch the complete record of every player interacting with the suspected person? To be sure to not ban someone innocent just playing the game and that wanted to go at war and use in game elements like the sword.

Can we trust the judgement of one person alone for something as important as permabanning?

Probably not right so there should be a whole team and how much would that cost in your opinion?

Completly out of touch with reality

Spoonwood · 2020-12-13 05:08:10

Dodge wrote:

Yes someone will stay on VOG 24/7 and spy on everyone to try and figure out if someone is griefing or actually playing the game you are both delusionnal.
...
Completly out of touch with reality

Both of these involve inflammatory language.

Dodge wrote:

JUST DONT GRIEF LOL

Shouting right here.

As Destiny said other games are able to accomplish such. Movement of some accounts to donkey town permanently doesn't involve any sort of contract violation.

Dodge wrote:

But what constitutes griefing then?

Deliberately trying to decrease the overall life expectancy of the players around you. The game is not "40 minutes one life" for players on average before you play and then you did something to deliberately decrease it to "30 minutes one life" for the players in your family. Doing something like this is griefing, because it involves intent to have fewer one hour one life experiences for players and to *discourage* players from having one hour one life experiences, since they'll be dead.

Dodge wrote:

Because we already established that the above can be both justified or griefing depending on the context.

No. I didn't agree to any of Dodge's statements. Not a single one. Neither did Destiny. Speaking for someone else like you did Dodge is not nice. In truth, it is a form of harassment, since it involves an attempt to prevent them from responding.

Dodge wrote:

And even IF we could define clear rules to follow, how do we figure out that context, watch the complete record of every player interacting with the suspected person?

Maybe.

Dodge wrote:

To be sure to not ban someone innocent just playing the game and that wanted to go at war and use in game elements like the sword.

The game is not a crafting game. It is not a "use this tool" or "use this weapon" game. It is a multiplayer social game. Use of the sword can't get justified purely because it exists. Deliberately trying to lower the lifespan overall of players around one is griefing. In other words, trying to make fewer one hour one life experiences for players as a whole is griefing.

The purposes of the sword got stated as follows:

jasonrohrer wrote:

Still thinking about how to prefer your own current family over other families in your current life (without depending on cross-life effects). If you have to choose between two kids, you should always feel a gameplay reason to choose your own. If there's a neighboring town, you should hesitate to share valuable resources with them for very real gameplay reasons. You should not WANT to wander away from your town and migrate to some other town to continue a trans-life personal project. You should want to build a wall around your town for real reasons. Towns with walls are interesting. You have to negotiate to get inside from the outside. Negotiation is interesting.

https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=6301

Dodge didn't use the sword to prefer your current family over other families. Neither did Michael Punch. Neither did Tarr. Neither did Methman. All of those people were griefing for using it as a player killing weapon. Each of them knew that they were likely decreasing the overall life expectancy of their families (Michael Punch knew that some players that he slaughtered would likely get reborn as a Punch and seek to cause havoc). Each of them knew that using such resulted in fewer one hour one life experiences for players. Each of them knew that it would discourage players from having one hour one life experiences in the future. And it did. Dozens, if not hundreds of players, quit playing because of that nonsense. It was uninteresting in the aggregate. The four of them should have gotten put in donkey town for at least a month, if not longer.

Dodge wrote:

Can we trust the judgement of one person alone for something as important as permabanning?

I won't speak for Dodge. So, I won't answer this question. No one should. It's a trap.

Dodge wrote:

Probably not right so there should be a whole team and how much would that cost in your opinion?
Completly out of touch with reality

Other games have permanent removal of players. Jason has done so before for other games, and has said he's gone down that road before on Github. A 30 hour a week schedule means that more time is available. Dodge's claims are mere claims, with little backing them up, and basically no consideration of the responses to what he has claimed.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-13 05:19:22)

Dodge · 2020-12-13 05:19:44

Anyway i made my point and said what i had to say, if you dont agree it's your choice.

It's nice to see reasonnable solutions being ignored in profit of talking about something completly unreasonnable.

I guess it's more about the drama than finding actual solutions.

No wonder Jason is barely talking on the forums anymore.

Spoonwood · 2020-12-13 05:38:09

The original post said:

fug wrote:

Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families
Only to see them ended by the same trolls as always.

Permanent banishment of those trolls to donkey town or another server makes for two possible actual solutions. And such can work, because people have a finite amount of money. Also, because it takes time for someone to realize that the account that they use is in donkey town or permanently on another server. Even those trolls have a finite amount of time. The more time that they would spend away from the main areas, the less time they would have to ensure fewer one hour one life experiences for players.

DestinyCall · 2020-12-13 05:40:02

If it can be done in other games, it can be done in this game. OHOL is not that special.

Does Jason pay his forum moderators? I am going to guess probably not. It wouldn't be that difficult to recruit volunteers from the community who understand the rules and how to identify inappropriate behavior. This is not brain surgery, it is social engineering. Many of us care deeply about the game and want it to be successful.

You keep going straight to banning, but it would make more sense to start a lot smaller than that. Most interactions would simply require education and redirection. Temporary or permanent bans would be reserved for more serious offenses and repeat offenders with a clear history of malfeasance. The point of game moderation is not to stop every bad action before it happens, but to provide players with additional options when they need help and keep the game running smoothly for the average player.

This game was not designed to be moderated, so additional features would likely need to be added to assist moderators. For example, a list of active players on the server and how many curses they have received over the last month. Additional user information, like if they have been involved in previous mod actions or if their account has been flagged would also be useful to help mods keep an eye on the right people. There could be a way to report problems directly to the mods or reporting could be done by cursing people. For example, after a person is cursed, the active moderator could be notified and some kind of event log could be saved to assist in follow up.

Active moderating would be labor-intensive and require careful consideration of what should be permissible and what is not allowed. It would not be easy to setup in a game like OHOL but if it was done right, I think it would be the best solution. Human mods would have the ability to judge complex situations much better than an automatic process and the rules could be adjusted or updated if the proved to be too restrictive or too difficult to enforce clearly.

But of course, Jason will never go for it, so I think we are probably stuck with automated moderation, in one form or another. It is not ideal, because if the net is too tight, you will catch innocent players and if it is too loose, it won't even catch the big fish. Ideally, you will want graduations ... small punishments for small or infrequent offenses and more severe punishments for serial offenders. A short stay in Donkey Town for you senile grandpa and a one-way trip to DT server for Bobo.

It won't be perfect, but automation is cheap and easy. And there is a chance it might actually happen. The difficult part would be getting Jason to actually check that it is setup correctly and adjust the settings, when necessary. If the filters were wrong it would cause serious problems, but might be hard for the average player to notice, because we can't see user stats. An automated screening system would need to be carefully calibrated and double-checked occasionally.

There are solutions to every problem if you are open to all the possibilities. A closed mind is a dead-end. Instead of focusing on what can't be done or how it might go wrong, consider all the different options available to us. The right answer is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

Spoonwood · 2020-12-13 07:10:45

Automation is not always cheap and easy. I think I remember reading that one of the automated cars needed over a million lines of code.

There are not solutions to every problem. To pick one relevant to computer game design, the problem of devising an algorithm to solve the halting problem is not solvable. The assumptions involved there prevent a solution. More generally were it the case that every problem could get solved, proofs by contradiction in mathematics would be impossible. But, proofs by contradiction exist. To pick another example, this problem is not solvable:

Find a rational number which equals a square root of three.

Once one knows how to look, it's often times not difficult to find problems which are not possible to solve.

Evil is real. There is no solution to the problem of griefing.

DestinyCall · 2020-12-13 08:39:55

Geez Spoonwood. Try to be a little more positive.

NoTruePunk · 2020-12-13 13:57:21

We already have a curse system and it generally works. Gameplay is collectivized, why can't moderation be too? Let the player base develop it's own culture of what is and is not socially acceptable.

DestinyCall · 2020-12-13 22:38:41

My problem with the current system is that it obviously isn't set-up to handle serial griefers in an effective manner. Something isn't right with the current settings if a few dedicated griefers are able to ruin entire towns, over and over and over, without any lasting consequence. Maybe it IS helping and the situation would be even worse without the curse system or maybe the curse system is doing very little to slow down experienced griefers and needs to be improved or changed. I don't know.

I just know that it doesn't feel like this game has its griefer problem under control right now. And I've pretty much given up making suggestions, because they get ignored or shot down as too much work or too difficult to balance. At this point, I don't have much expectation that anything will improve.

One Hour One Life Forums

#51 2020-12-12 21:36:45

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#52 2020-12-13 04:03:31

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#53 2020-12-13 05:08:10

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#54 2020-12-13 05:19:44

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#55 2020-12-13 05:38:09

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#56 2020-12-13 05:40:02

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#57 2020-12-13 07:10:45

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#58 2020-12-13 08:39:55

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#59 2020-12-13 13:57:21

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

#60 2020-12-13 22:38:41

Re: Nice to see the update has enabled longer lasting families

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