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I addressed what you said above Dodge. You just repeated yourself without addressing any of the points I said. Also, you deleted a comment and then posted a new one.
Your claims about why are not correct.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 04:16:00)
Danish Clinch.
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I addressed what you said above Dodge. You just repeated yourself without addressing any of the points I said. Also, you deleted a comment and then posted a new one.
Your claims about why are not correct.
You mean adressing something as ridiculous as this:
use some bot to serve the sentence at their place
That's time spent by the bot playing instead of the griefer playing. That's less time that the griefer has to play, making them less likely to succeed.
You do know that people have a life and dont spend it playing the game 24/7 right?
So you can run the bot at night when you dont give a shit and wake up to grief again
Where most regular players on the other hand wont download a bot and will either make a complaint or quit the game.
Your claims about why are not correct.
Ok then ask Jason if you think i'm wrong about this, you can argue all you want he wont go into extreme measures like permabanning or getting a player stuck in D-town.
Permabanning would take way too much administrative time, figuring out wether or not it's legitimate to ban that specific person, getting the testimony of players etc
It's not as straight forward as most other games, i could murder a whole village and just say that they stole my village so it was deserved, and it would take you hours to figure out if it's true or not, now scale the same thing a hundred times and maybe you will understand why it's not a viable solution.
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You do know that people have a life and dont spend it playing the game 24/7 right?
So you can run the bot at night when you dont give a shit and wake up to grief again
This assumes that such people would have such bots, which I don't find likely. Also, it assumes regular sleep schedules. But additionally, it doesn't apply to DestinyCall's idea of moving players between servers. Nor does it apply to her idea of getting exiled to donkeytown for real life *weeks*. Nor does it apply to permanent banishment to Donkeytown.
Where most regular players on the other hand wont download a bot and will either make a complaint or quit the game.
They do make complaints on the forums and don't play because of destructive players. Again, this game has lost hundreds of non-destructive players because of the lack of serious consequences for destructive players.
Ok then ask Jason if you think i'm wrong about this, you can argue all you want he wont go into extreme measures like permabanning or getting a player stuck in D-town.
I don't think I've been arguing that he won't do such.
Permabanning would take way too much administrative time, figuring out wether or not it's legitimate to ban that specific person, getting the testimony of players etc
Jason has admitted that he usually doesn't even work 40 hours a week. Specifically, he's talked about working 30 hours a week:
8am - Noon (4 hours) Content creation
Noon - 1pm (1 hour) Programming
1pm - 2pm (1 hour) Community interaction (tech support, forums, email, Discord)
https://onehouronelife.com/forums/viewt … 1057#p1057
If this game were to ever become great, he would probably need to work 60 hour weeks on a consistent basis (or more), *and* get help. Serious projects just don't get accomplished without the time put in. It wouldn't take even 20 hours in one week to remove some of Post and Milkmans accounts permanently from the main areas, or it wouldn't take four weeks of 20 more hours to do so. So, no, doing such would not take too much time.
It's not as straight forward as most other games, i could murder a whole village and just say that they stole my village so it was deserved ..
No, you could not do such honestly, because no village where murder is involved is the property of any single player in this game and never has been. Also, that's a completely disproportionate reaction. It wasn't the whole village who would have stolen from the village *that you belonged to*. On an honor code, it would only be just for you to kill those who stole.
It would work as a viable solution, because getting rid of accounts from that duo would enable players to live longer on average. It would result in longer lives for players. It would result in more one hour one life experiences for players. And there would exist more motivation for players to do so on average, because there would be a greater probability of success in more situations.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 05:46:06)
Danish Clinch.
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"Also, it assumes regular sleep schedules." There's also work or anytime you are doing anything else than playing the game, just launch the bot and serve your sentence, then come back to grief, it just doesn't work.
Any solution that is too extreme has the risk of having regular players pay the price for it, so it's a no go.
because no village where murder is involved is the property of any single player in this game and never has been. Also, that's a completely disproportionate reaction. It wasn't the whole village who would have stolen from the village *that you belonged to*. On an honor code, it would only be just for you to kill those who stole.
Someone that wasn't born in the village i was born in stole our engine, i'm pissed because i just made that engine, i go to their village and kill them all plus destroy all their stuff, you can call it disproportionate if you want i'm still playing the game and you have no way to prove if it's actually true or if i am a griefer in reality.
Or you might figure it out after hours and hours of collecting the point of view of everyone that was in both villages, trying to find video evidence of it, analyzing the crime scene
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!
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Or you just base it off the ratio of curses divided by time in the game. No need to interview witnesses or gather evidence and compare sides. This is not a court of law. It is a multi-player game. You don't need to rely on witness testimony when you have user statistics.
Let's be real ... if a ton of people have you cursed in a relatively short amount of time, you are not an innocent bystander. You are a public nuisance.
The cut off for a perma-ban would obviously need to be pretty high. Much higher than a short stint in Donkey Town. Just analyze the curse statistics so only the worst of the worst get booted off the main server. There would be no real risk of "regular" players getting flagged by accident.
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Any solution that is too extreme has the risk of having regular players pay the price for it, so it's a no go.
It is extreme to not have serially destructive players remaining in the main playing areas. It has a very high risk of regular players quitting. The risk is much smaller with some serially destructive players getting banished permanently to donkeytown or somewhere else.
Someone that wasn't born in the village i was born in stole our engine, i'm pissed because i just made that engine, i go to their village and kill them all plus destroy all their stuff, you can call it disproportionate if you want i'm still playing the game and you have no way to prove if it's actually true or if i am a griefer in reality.
I'm sure that you would be/were/are a griefer in such a situation, because you didn't respond on the basis of trying to preserve the innocence of the other village as much as reasonable. As you said, you killed them *all*, which means several more than one character. That means you punished/killed/harassed many more innocent players than just the *one* guilty player who stole the engine you made, and you knew that you were killing innocent players. Intentionally killing innocent players is griefing plain and simple, since it's a survival game, and when you kill the innocent as you've said you've done before Dodge, you are deliberately playing against those trying to survive. Doing such is deliberately trying to prevent one hour one life experiences for innocent players. Your example is that easy and required like a minute of reading to figure out that you were a bad actor in such a situation, even assuming that you were wronged.
You want to invoke a notion of 'revenge' for a person who stole your engine, you simply don't have the right to kill every one of their family members. Going haywire on an entire village over that is griefing, especially since many characters in that village weren't even born OR old enough to move an engine when your engine got looted.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 06:44:22)
Danish Clinch.
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Or you just base it off the ratio of curses divided by time in the game. No need to interview witnesses or gather evidence and compare sides. This is not a court of law. It is a multi-player game. You don't need to rely on witness testimony when you have user statistics.
Let's be real ... if a ton of people have you cursed in a relatively short amount of time, you are not an innocent bystander. You are a public nuisance.
The cut off for a perma-ban would obviously need to be pretty high. Much higher than a short stint in Donkey Town. Just analyze the curse statistics so only the worst of the worst get booted off the main server. There would be no real risk of "regular" players getting flagged by accident.
Yes. And the risk to regular players is higher by keeping such players in the main area, because they are likely to have shorter lives with players in the main area like those who murdered the last of the Red family. I mean, it's *inevitable* that some players will get killed (or commit suicide in frustration I suppose, Destiny) with serial destructive players on the loose. That regular players get flagged by such a process is *not* inevitable.
Danish Clinch.
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Or you just base it off the ratio of curses divided by time in the game. No need to interview witnesses or gather evidence and compare sides. This is not a court of law. It is a multi-player game. You don't need to rely on witness testimony when you have user statistics.
Let's be real ... if a ton of people have you cursed in a relatively short amount of time, you are not an innocent bystander. You are a public nuisance.
The cut off for a perma-ban would obviously need to be pretty high. Much higher than a short stint in Donkey Town. Just analyze the curse statistics so only the worst of the worst get booted off the main server. There would be no real risk of "regular" players getting flagged by accident.
Ok, i'm an 80 year old man with dementia playing this game, i always make mistakes with crafting recipes, like burning rabbits, being slow at the forge and letting my babies die because i forget about them, because of this i get curse repeatedly and end up in "prison" because of it, not good.
Of course it's an extreme example but there a tons of them much more common like being a new player, being an annoying roleplayer, being a try hard player micro managing and bossing everyone etc
We had that system before and there was complaints so going back to it is not an option.
Perma banning is even more out of the question, too much risk for edge cases like the ones mentionned above.
It would be fine though to temporarily ban from one server and redirect to the next one (server1, server2 etc) but not a prison type thing where regular players that get cursed for other reasons would not be able to play the game that you would expect to play.
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I'm sure that you would be/were/are a griefer in such a situation, because you didn't respond on the basis of giving every individual justice. As you said, you killed them *all*
Dumb argument
I acted out of anger and wanted revenge that still doesn't make me a griefer.
Maybe you have no notion of how much time each individual case would take or you just dont value your time, it's just not a viable solution, get over it.
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Ok, i'm an 80 year old man with dementia playing this game, i always make mistakes with crafting recipes, like burning rabbits, being slow at the forge and letting my babies die because i forget about them, because of this i get curse repeatedly and end up in "prison" because of it, not good.
There is no such person Dodge.
No, new players and role players don't get cursed that much either.
We had that system before and there was complaints so going back to it is not an option.
There never has been perma-banning or permanent removal to donkeytown for this game.
Perma banning is even more out of the question, too much risk for edge cases like the ones mentionned above.
There is not much risk in perma banning, since perma banning would make it more likely that those who do play can have one hour one life experiences. There exists much risk in refusing to perma ban, because there exists shorter lifespans and more boredom due to things becoming too challenging because of serially destructive players. The game is not 20 minutes one life. It's one hour one life. And there's a lot of risk that people will give up on having one hour one life experiences with serially destructive players around. Destiny relating that she goes off and gets bite by a bear deliberately demonstrates this.
It would be fine though to temporarily ban from one server and redirect to the next one (server1, server2 etc) but not a prison type thing where regular players that get cursed for other reasons would not be able to play the game that you would expect to play.
I remember Jason saying that prisons in game would be fine.
Also, perma bans *are* the equivalent of the death penalty for this game. It's simply not consistent to have a game with killing, but not have something like perma bans.
Danish Clinch.
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Spoonwood wrote:[
I'm sure that you would be/were/are a griefer in such a situation, because you didn't respond on the basis of giving every individual justice. As you said, you killed them *all*
Dumb argument
I acted out of anger and wanted revenge that still doesn't make me a griefer.
That wasn't the argument. You said you killed an entire village. You *knew* you were killing innocent players. You *knew* that it would be impossible for them to have one hour one life experience. You *knew* that they would have something like a 30 mintue one life experience or 40 minute one life experience. You *knew* that the game is one hour one life. You acted against players trying to have a one hour one life experience who did NOT harm you nor did they harm others, nor did they show signs of intent of harming others. The characters are interested primarily in survival also, not in harming innocent characters, since it's a *group* survival game, and the survival of other groups is also part of the game. All of that combined makes you a griefer in such a situation, even with the engine stolen wrongly.
Maybe you have no notion of how much time each individual case would take or you just dont value your time, it's just not a viable solution, get over it.
I know that permanently moving accounts like Post and Milkman to donkeytown would not take very long. "Not enough time" doesn't work for someone telling us that they only work part-time hours to begin with, but wanting CEO-hour level results.
And again, it's not viable long term to not have any perma bans on any conditions for this game. It means that more players die early before old age or something in real life persuades them to do something else. It means that more players find things too challenging with respect to having one hour one life experiences and get bored.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 07:02:07)
Danish Clinch.
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You're just repeating yourself with extra steps, at this point if you dont get it you dont get it.
Extra steps is not repeating oneself Dodge. Extra steps consists of more detail.
Also, your image shows that you want laziness on this matter. It shows that you would rather not have to put in time or have others put in time in thinking about things and addressing this issue. Better things simply do not happen without adequate time put in.
Danish Clinch.
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Dodge wrote:You're just repeating yourself with extra steps, at this point if you dont get it you dont get it.
Extra steps is not repeating oneself Dodge. Extra steps consists of more detail.
Also, your image shows that you want laziness on this matter. It shows that you would rather not have to put in time or have others put in time in thinking about things and addressing this issue. Better things simply do not happen without adequate time put in.
Keep arguin all you want Jason is not going to do permabans for the reasons mentionned previously neither will he go to the old system or anything like it since he received complains from it, you either get it or you dont.
Also i'm not lazy i sugested a solution for both the murder and cursing issue, it's just not interesting to talk to you because you cant comprehend anything with common sense and need to be anal about everything.
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Keep arguin all you want Jason is not going to do permabans for the reasons mentionned previously ...
Oh, and how do you know what Jason will or will not do there Dodge?
Also, how do you know that those make for *the real* reasons?
Honestly Dodge, you can *believe* what you've stated as the reasons. But, no, that's not how things work. People make decisions like that on the basis of their beliefs.
Also, to use a similar form to what you did, either you get it that perma bans of some players would result in a greater ratio of players having one hour one life experiences or not. Either you realize that a greater ratio of players having one hour one life experiences is better for the game or you do not understand such.
And Jason gets complaints, like the ones above, about serial destructive players messing things up. He *will* keep on receiving complaints in the foreseeable future about serially destructive players. And there exist more players who dislike serially destructive players than those who want to make excuses for them or cover up their behavior as necessary in some way. Again, their behavior results in a more boring game for more players, because they live shorter lives, and have fewer one hour one life experiences.
Also i'm not lazy i sugested a solution for both the murder and cursing issue, it's just not interesting to talk to you because you cant comprehend anything with common sense and need to be anal about everything.
I didn't say you were lazy. I said you wanted laziness on this matter. You don't want serious time invested into looking into it. You also keep on talking to me Dodge.
And your attack of "cant comprehend anything with common sense and need to be anal about everything" is out of line.
Danish Clinch.
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Oh, and how do you know what Jason will or will not do there Dodge?
Also, how do you know that those make for *the real* reasons?
Because he said it and talked about why he wouldn't do it, he made a post about it you can dig it up if you want, aint gonna change anything though.
And your attack of "cant comprehend anything with common sense and need to be anal about everything" is out of line.
After a pointless back and forth discussion like this one i would say it's prefectly apropriate.
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Because he said it and talked about why he wouldn't do it, he made a post about it you can dig it up if you want, aint gonna change anything though.
People's stated reasons aren't always their real reasons.
After a pointless back and forth discussion like this one i would say it's prefectly apropriate.
By your own admission you view this conversation as pointless. That means you've been trolling.
Danish Clinch.
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By your own admission you view this conversation as pointless. That means you've been trolling.
No, it's pointless because you cant understand, like trying to explain the value of money to a rich kid or common sense from real life to you, but maybe someone else will get something out of this conversation so it's not a total loss.
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What if you built up enough curses you were sent to donkeytown for a week or something?
Say you break 20 curses you go for a week. After the week the curses are scrubbed. If another 20 is accumulated you go for two weeks and so on. Eventually serial griefers would have their accounts in donkeytown for months.
That's how the old dt system worked. The penalty was exponential.
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NoTruePunk wrote:IP bans for multi-accounts with too many curses
I don't think that is possible. onehouronelife.com says "lifetime server account" and there's no end user license agreement, which I'm not sure leaves the possibility of permanent bans open. Or in other words, there is nothing comparable to the death penalty for serial destructive players.
Accounts permanently in donkeytown though is possible, since donkeytowns still exist on the same server.
They can still log into low pop of course. It'd be automatic, if you're booted from bs2 it puts you in a random lowpop
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NoTruePunk wrote:IP bans for multi-accounts with too many curses
What happens when multiple people of the same household play and one of them is cursed to donkeytown? Plus bans cant happen unless an eula is added, which would contradict the original contract made when the game was purchased. Would likely put jason in legal trouble. "Lifetime server account" etc. As much as an eula would probably help the game it would be hard to introduce it this late in development. Plus jason wouldnt have much legal ground to deny server access if the eula was rejected.
If your little brother gets you banned you should have a personal talk with him about what sort of behavior is considered unacceptable online. People don't actually get to discard all morality and social convention just because they're behind a computer screen. Unfortunately that wasn't really established early on in the age of the internet.
Griefing is cyber bullying.
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Griefing is cyber bullying.
100% agree.
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Spoonwood wrote:By your own admission you view this conversation as pointless. That means you've been trolling.
No, it's pointless because you cant understand, like trying to explain the value of money to a rich kid or common sense from real life to you, but maybe someone else will get something out of this conversation so it's not a total loss.
In 2020, it's commonly accepted and common sense that in online multiplayer games griefers, can get removed.
Permanent banishment to donkeytown for some players under some conditions would fit with such common sense, and wouldn't have any contradiction with what gets said on the website about lifetime access for an account.
Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-12-12 19:34:54)
Danish Clinch.
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Dodge wrote:Spoonwood wrote:By your own admission you view this conversation as pointless. That means you've been trolling.
No, it's pointless because you cant understand, like trying to explain the value of money to a rich kid or common sense from real life to you, but maybe someone else will get something out of this conversation so it's not a total loss.
In 2020, it's commonly accepted and common sense that in online multiplayer games griefers, can get removed.
Permanent banishment to donkeytown for some players under some conditions would fit with such common sense, and wouldn't have any contradiction with what gets said on the website about lifetime access for an account.
Do you not understand?
I will repeat it then, it would take too much time to solve in game drama and figure out if someone is truly worth a ban and not some annoying roleplayer/dumb idiot/actual in game event happening for a reason/anything else you can think of.
And any automated system would have a risk of catching someone innocent like the ones mentionned above.
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I don't play that many multi-player games, but the ones that I have played used in-game moderators and an established code of conduct for conflict resolution. The system does require the game dev to recruit help from the gaming community AND add coding support for moderators - like VOG powers and other tools that allow them to investigate complaints more easily than the average player. Jason would not need to do it alone, but he would want to pick his mods wisely.
It's not that different from forum moderation, really You lay out your expectations regarding acceptable behavior and you give moderators the power to monitor player interactions and review game footage, so they can identify disruptive elements and rule-breakers. If someone complains about another player, but their behavior does not violate any rules, then they have done nothing wrong and nothing bad happens. But if they have broken the rules and continue to do so after being warned, then the mod makes a judgement call based on what he is able to see and assigns a punishment. If the same person keeps making the same mistakes and keeps drawing moderator attention, it will be pretty obvious that he deserves a stricter response.
Since moderators are people, not machines, they are capable of interpreting complex social situations and noticing behavior patterns.
The tricky part would be coming up with a good set of rules that allow us the freedom to roleplay and act as we wish, while curbing abusive and toxic play. Some conflict is perfectly fine and I don't want to rob the game of its unique character and openness of choice. For example, in a game like OHOL, I would not have moderators enforce a rule against "theft" but I would have them enforce a rule against "harassment". Harassment might take the form of repeatedly stealing from someone's Eve camp, but the core problem is not the theft of in-game items, but the targeted harassment of another player. It is only when you push things too far and it stops being fun that the moderators would need to step in and break up the fight.
....
Spacestation13 has multiple servers running different versions of the base game. Each server has its own set of rules and the server rules are enforced by mods, while the in-game laws (Space Law) are handled by Security Officers. There is even a brig for emprisoning people who break Space Law and get caught. The mods are there to watch for griefers and new players who need help. They provide assistance if you are having trouble with the game and they warn you if your behavior is out of line. If you cannot or will not obey the code of conduct, you can get banned. Griefing still happens on Spacestation13, but it is addressed quickly and efficiently.
I've also played on a custom Rust server that had limited PvP. After each monthly wipe, there would be a week long "raid ban" in effect and during that time, you could not attack another player's base and you could not kill anyone, unless they were "trespassing" near your base or inside one of the designated PvP areas. After the first week, raiding was allowed, but you were still expected to abide by the limited PvP rules which restricted where and when you could initiate combat. The attacker was responsible for justifying the attack. Self-defense was allowed, if someone else attacked you first. All of these PvP rules were basically dependent on the "honor system" and anyone who joined the server needed to read and understand the rules so they didn't get in trouble with the mods for playing standard Rust instead of limited PvP Rust. Some people couldn't handle the responsibility and had to get the boot. The moderators were available to investigate complaints and sort out disputes between players. In some cases, they would give out warnings, other times, temporarily bans, and in other cases, permanent bans. The result of their efforts was a rust server that was able to support actual organized towns and communities of solo players living together. It was a pretty cool experience, considering public Rust servers are typically a Battle Royale bloodbath. Yet it allowed much more freedom, conflict, and excitement than would be possible on a no-pvp custom server. And it was only possible due to the tireless efforts of dedicated moderators.
...
All that being said, I am well aware that Jason isn't likely to establish a code of conduct and add moderation to his social experiment game. I am simply pointing out that it can be done. Other games have already done it. And it works.
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