kill the sheep

Caprys · 2020-10-15 23:05:35

Is there any downside to killing all the sheep (not the mouflon) when you're in an eve camp and there is no shears or dropspindle? You get the sheepskin for clothing, mutton for cooking. When you get shears you can still use it on the sheepskin to turn it into wool. I don't see a reason to let them live when you have all those naked people running around and you need food. The sheep are useless until you get shears and a dropspindle. But I don't see people do this in eve camps. Am I missing a downside to it?

OneOfMany · 2020-10-15 23:17:10

Caprys wrote:

When you get shears you can still use it on the sheepskin to turn it into wool. [...] Am I missing a downside to it?

Wow, I didn't know that. Was that something new added? I swear you learn something new everyday in this game. As far as a down side, I don't see one, with this being true.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-15 23:19:34

Smart people don't get sheep before they have the tools to utilize them. But sure, if you have a sheep and a knife, but don't have shears yet, making sheep and killing them for food/sheep skin is fine. With the current breeding system, mouflon babies are much better than non-mouflon babies, so adult sheep are not necessary as long as you have someone working on making more.

Feed a baby, kill an adult, repeat.

It would be even better to go off and get two pieces of iron to make some shears, instead of messing with the village sheep, of course. The benefits of having lots of thread in an early camp is significant, since it allows mass production of rabbit gear and pads. But the sheepskins are a good early clothing option, especially if you don't have enough backpacks yet.

Just be very careful. If you kill all the sheep and some joker comes along and slaughters the mouflon, you are kinda screwed.

OneOfMany · 2020-10-15 23:34:38

DestinyCall wrote:

Just be very careful. If you kill all the sheep and some joker comes along and slaughters the mouflon, you are kinda screwed.

Yes, that's always the case and there's plenty of Jokers. In the case of an Eve town, it seems quite reasonable to use sheep skins for easy/quick clothing since they can later be repurposed for better clothing. And when the inevitable Joker comes by, you can always get another mouflon. If you want to play the meta game, release a couple of sheep in biomes near by. This allows for easy recovery from a sheep killer.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-16 00:42:21

DestinyCall wrote:

It would be even better to go off and get two pieces of iron to make some shears, instead of messing with the village sheep, of course. The benefits of having lots of thread in an early camp is significant, since it allows mass production of rabbit gear and pads. But the sheepskins are a good early clothing option, especially if you don't have enough backpacks yet.
Just be very careful. If you kill all the sheep and some joker comes along and slaughters the mouflon, you are kinda screwed.

Really? So what would players wear on their chest instead? Mouflon hides? But then if some joker comes along and kills all of the sheep and the mouflon, you're even more screwed, since someone will have to go farther to find a mouflon.

It's very easy to fall for the trap that getting iron and processing it comes as the most important and valuable thing to do, when in doubt about iron processing's value overall. Getting the iron, processing it, and getting rabbit gear will take more people and more time than killing sheeps and leaving the mouflon. More people will have a lower pip drain rate earlier by killing all the sheep and leaving the mouflon. It's less pressure on the water supply and food supply earlier.

I don't see how rabbit gear and pads put players in a better position overall than the sheep skins. You might feel safer with the pads approach and love your backpack, but what facts do you have to back up that they make things better for you and everyone else?

What is your argument that rabbit gear and pads put players in a better position overall?

DestinyCall · 2020-10-16 05:31:28

Spoonwood wrote:

Really? So what would players wear on their chest instead? Mouflon hides? But then if some joker comes along and kills all of the sheep and the mouflon, you're even more screwed, since someone will have to go farther to find a mouflon.

We get the most benefit from sheep when we have the necessary tools to fully utilize their production potential.

And sheep still have skin after you get shears. I never said it was a bad idea to clothe naked people using sheepskins, especially if that is literally the only option available. I said you should fast-track getting shears, because ball of thread is super handy, which is undeniably true. You can make lots more clothes with one ball of thread than you can with a single intact sheepskin, especially if you have the rabbit skins already available, which is pretty commonly the case in early pre-sheep villages.

After you have enough backpacks, rabbit coat provides much better protection than a derpy-looking sheepskin or mouflon hide. A single rabbit shoe gives 8.5% insulation, compared with the 10.5% insulation offered by the sheep skin. Two shoes gives a cumulative bonus of 17%. Making a rabbit loincloth gives another 17% insulation. The hat offers 22.25% and so on. Heck, even if you do not have any rabbit skins, one fleece can be turned into a bowler hat that provides 15% insulation. Or alternatively, the straw hat offers a mere 12.5% insulation - worse than the felt hat - but it is easy to mass-produce when you have infinite thread and a bunch of straw laying around.

We do not keep sheep just because they look cute, Spoonwood. That is a bonus, of course, but the value comes from fleece, meat, and poop, not from their ability to generate infinite sheep skins.

Caprys · 2020-10-16 06:52:02

OneOfMany wrote:

Caprys wrote:
When you get shears you can still use it on the sheepskin to turn it into wool. [...] Am I missing a downside to it?
Wow, I didn't know that. Was that something new added? I swear you learn something new everyday in this game. As far as a down side, I don't see one, with this being true.

No, it's not new. You can do this for a long time now.

Caprys · 2020-10-16 07:03:50

DestinyCall wrote:

Smart people don't get sheep before they have the tools to utilize them. But sure, if you have a sheep and a knife, but don't have shears yet, making sheep and killing them for food/sheep skin is fine. With the current breeding system, mouflon babies are much better than non-mouflon babies, so adult sheep are not necessary as long as you have someone working on making more.
Feed a baby, kill an adult, repeat.
It would be even better to go off and get two pieces of iron to make some shears, instead of messing with the village sheep, of course. The benefits of having lots of thread in an early camp is significant, since it allows mass production of rabbit gear and pads. But the sheepskins are a good early clothing option, especially if you don't have enough backpacks yet.
Just be very careful. If you kill all the sheep and some joker comes along and slaughters the mouflon, you are kinda screwed.

You can't always be the village do it all that does it all. Sometimes I just don't want to be the smith next to being the cook, the farmer, the one that brings kindle, hunter,...

Like I said, you can still turn the sheepskin into wool with the shears. Nothing is lost.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-16 07:25:25

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. If you just want to tend sheep for your whole life, go for it. Shepherd is a valuable job in any village, even if the food meta has shifted away from mutton pies.

But a shepherd without shears is a bit sad, don't you think? If you don't want to single-handedly save the village, you could even ask someone else to make them for you. Since you already have a knife, it isn't that hard to make a pair of shears, either. Your village must have a file somewhere.

Caprys · 2020-10-16 14:26:58

DestinyCall wrote:

Sure. Nothing wrong with that. If you just want to tend sheep for your whole life, go for it. Shepherd is a valuable job in any village, even if the food meta has shifted away from mutton pies.
But a shepherd without shears is a bit sad, don't you think? If you don't want to single-handedly save the village, you could even ask someone else to make them for you. Since you already have a knife, it isn't that hard to make a pair of shears, either. Your village must have a file somewhere.

If I wanted to be a shepherd I would make a shear and a dropspindle.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-16 19:55:02

Oh ... and to answer your question about why you sometimes find an early camp with a ton of sheep nobody seems to want to touch for some reason. In my experience, the most common reason for this is "no knife". Even if there is currently a knife or two available, the village probably got the sheep before the knife was made.

This happens when someone decides to rush sheep but either doesn't realize there is no knife or doesn't have enough time to make a knife themselves. They make the bow, hunt the mouflon, build the pen, gather the sheep food and bring in the baby ... but they run out of time or tool slots, so the knife isn't ready when they die.

The next generation start to feed the sheep, making more of them, but can't find the right tools or don't know how to make them, so eventually you have a sheep pen full of mostly useless sheep, while the village remains naked and hungry. If no one with enough experience to solve the problem comes along, this kind of roadblock can slowly kill a village of new players due to multiple generations of neglect. Especially since "no knife" usually also means something is seriously wrong in the smithy and the village is in danger of running out of iron/water/etc, if it is not resolved quickly.

You see the same problem sometimes with Eve camps that rush Turkey, only to discover that the turkey is inedible unless you have a knife to cut it into thin slices. We can't just rip off chunks with our hands, because we are starving. We are not animals!

It isn't that hard to make a knife, of course. And if you are making a knife and have a little extra iron, you can easily make a pair of shears too. Or if you notice that someone got a little ambitious and made a bunch of knives, you can turn some of them into shears. The drop spindle requires a wooden disc that requires a bow saw that requires a file. So chances are good that if you have a knife, you also have what you need to make the other basic shepherd tools.

This is mostly a problem in early villages with lots of newer players or for people who are not used to playing in early villages. They forget about making basic tools because you almost never need to worry about making drop spindles and shears or even knives in an established town. They are just always there already. Since you need a bucket to make a deep well, any village at that stage or beyond will typically have a file, a bow saw, and the ability to make knives, shears, and drop spindles.

At that point, you just need someone to notice the problem and fix it.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-10-16 19:57:12)

Spoonwood · 2020-10-16 21:23:25

DestinyCall wrote:

They make the bow, hunt the mouflon, build the pen, gather the sheep food and bring in the baby ... but they run out of time or tool slots, so the knife isn't ready when they die.

I guess you haven't played in a few weeks now, have you Destiny? Tool slots effectively got disabled 09/22/2020. Or were you making your comment with respect to how things use to happen?

DestinyCall wrote:

We can't just rip off chunks with our hands, because we are starving.

I think it's preposterous to believe that in a hypothetical future, humans wouldn't have the ability to move turkey flesh with their hands.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-16 22:51:07

Does anyone grow a row of carrots to make sheep have lambs, and then feed the lambs berry-carrot bowls?

OneOfMany · 2020-10-16 22:54:10

Spoonwood wrote:

Does anyone grow a row of carrots to make sheep have lambs, and then feed the lambs berry-carrot bowls?

Like growing a row in the pen? I've never seen it.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 01:01:42

OneOfMany wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
Does anyone grow a row of carrots to make sheep have lambs, and then feed the lambs berry-carrot bowls?
Like growing a row in the pen? I've never seen it.

I've only seen it very rarely. Last I checked, it was a poor choice. Not much, if any, advantage over normal feeding. I haven't bothered running the numbers lately with the new sheep mechanics, but I am pretty sure free mouflon babies beat sheep babies, any way you look at them.

Spoonwood wrote:

I guess you haven't played in a few weeks now, have you Destiny? Tool slots effectively got disabled 09/22/2020. Or were you making your comment with respect to how things use to happen?

Yeah, I was aware of tool slots being disabled (I hope forever). I was speaking historically, since I assume most people reading this post were playing the game prior to that update. I haven't seen that many new faces lately.

Spoonwood wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
We can't just rip off chunks with our hands, because we are starving.
I think it's preposterous to believe that in a hypothetical future, humans wouldn't have the ability to move turkey flesh with their hands.

Ever since the global disaster that left every surviving human with only one functioning hand, we have had to adapt in many ways. Find new ways to live, new paths to success, new ways to combine exactly one object with one other object.

We have these rules for a reason, Spoonwood. They exist for our protection and our children's safety. If people went around recklessly tearing apart turkey carcasses without a knife, the world might once more descend into the chaos of those dark days before the Great Reset.

Nobody wants that. The penguins almost won.

OneOfMany · 2020-10-17 02:48:05

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:
We can't just rip off chunks with our hands, because we are starving.
I think it's preposterous to believe that in a hypothetical future, humans wouldn't have the ability to move turkey flesh with their hands.
Ever since the global disaster that left every surviving human with only one functioning hand, we have had to adapt in many ways. Find new ways to live, new paths to success, new ways to combine exactly one object with one other object.
We have these rules for a reason, Spoonwood. They exist for our protection and our children's safety. If people went around recklessly tearing apart turkey carcasses without a knife, the world might once more descend into the chaos of those dark days before the Great Reset.
Nobody wants that. The penguins almost won.

First off, you two are adorable. I love the type of banter you guys get in to.

Second off....

DestinyCall wrote:

Last I checked, it was a poor choice. Not much, if any, advantage over normal feeding. I haven't bothered running the numbers lately with the new sheep mechanics, but I am pretty sure free mouflon babies beat sheep babies, any way you look at them.

Anytime Destiny chimes in on the math, I feel I need to check her numbers. (No Offense Destiny, I love you like a little sister)

I did the math, I checked it out, and there are some weird things possible.

Using carrot rows to make baby sheep, is just slightly better on water consumption, but it has an interesting compost benefit. An "eaten carrot row" can be re-tiled (no compost needed) or scoped up with a basket to make three soil. There is a negligible gain on water consumption (row vs feed), but there is a boost to compost/soil. I don't think it's anything too remarkable, but it would mean in certain situations, it would be beneficial to use carrot rows instead of feed to get baby sheep. I doubt this would become a regular behavior in the game due to it's obscurity and the fact it's only beneficial if done correctly.

Oh and of course, free mouflon babies will always beat sheep babies.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 05:10:28

Yeah, it has been some time sense I looked at it that closely so I couldn't recall the exact breakdown. I just remember not being that impressed. I also messed around with actually growing carrots in a sheep pen and I found that lack of free floor space becomes an issue. Along with the time aspect - carrots grow relatively fast, but there is a distinct delay between watering the row and the sheep consuming the grown carrots. I found it difficult to find the right pacing.

Keep in mind, this was before you had to feed sheep to get them to produce babies. The idea was to shear the adults and feed them to regrow fleece so they could be sheared again. If you are feeding to produce babies, the timing is more sensitive, I would think. Like milking cows.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-17 15:27:28

DestinyCall wrote:

I haven't bothered running the numbers lately with the new sheep mechanics, but I am pretty sure free mouflon babies beat sheep babies, any way you look at them.

It takes some time for a mouflon to have a lamb, and also some time for the lamb to separate from the mouflon. I think feeding sheep food is faster, if you have the food. Thus, I think there exists a time/resource tradeoff with each approach.

DestinyCall wrote:

Ever since the global disaster that left every surviving human with only one functioning hand, we have had to adapt in many ways.

Oh my, you're right. OHOL characters only can use one hand.

DestinyCall wrote:

If people went around recklessly tearing apart turkey carcasses without a knife, the world might once more descend into the chaos of those dark days before the Great Reset.

Which reset... by which I mean wipe... was the Great Reset?

OneOfMany wrote:

Oh and of course, free mouflon babies will always beat sheep babies.

If one has a full feed bucket in a pen, and several sheep, one can feed those sheep and get more lambs faster than how long a mouflon can produce that number of lambs. If all sheep lambs get fed, I think more sheep can produce quickly than using mouflon lambs.

Last edited by Spoonwood (2020-10-17 15:48:25)

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 16:08:36

Spoonwood wrote:

If one has a full feed bucket in a pen, and several sheep, one can feed those sheep and get more lambs faster than how long a mouflon can produce that number of lambs. If all sheep lambs get fed, I think more sheep can produce quickly than using mouflon lambs.

Have you considered getting more mouflons?

Spoonwood · 2020-10-17 16:46:28

DestinyCall wrote:

Spoonwood wrote:
If one has a full feed bucket in a pen, and several sheep, one can feed those sheep and get more lambs faster than how long a mouflon can produce that number of lambs. If all sheep lambs get fed, I think more sheep can produce quickly than using mouflon lambs.
Have you considered getting more mouflons?

If I have to get more mouflons, that's all the time waiting for the wild mouflon to have a mouflon baby, and then roping them back one by one. So all that time traveling too. It would be more hides though.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 16:53:52

Catching mouflon is a one-time investment that pays itself off in the long run. Once you have two, three, four, five extra domestic mouflon, you will be swimming in baby sheep (and dead babies).

You can produce so many sheep, so fast. Think of the time-savings! And it costs half as much food as producing adult sheep from sheep babies.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-17 20:28:47

DestinyCall wrote:

You can produce so many sheep, so fast. Think of the time-savings!

But it's one hour one life, with one life to live and then it's over (or at least it can get conceived that way). Of course, it's more beneficial to others if one gets the mouflons instead. One's potential contribution is greater. But, I think it gets hard to do things, because of such long-term expected benefit for others. It also might not mean much to anyone later. And how would one ever know if it had such benefit? Sure, maybe you will go to that village again though.

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 22:05:28

The village could be attacked by bears or murder hornets or destroyed by an earthquake. The future is always uncertain.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our villages and build epic sheep pens that our children will probably fuck up or ignore.

Spoonwood · 2020-10-17 22:14:49

DestinyCall wrote:

The village could be attacked by bears or murder hornets or destroyed by an earthquake. The future is always uncertain.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve our villages and build epic sheep pens that our children will probably fuck up or ignore.

But with one hour, one life to live, and only so much that we can do, if we don't follow what we (or perhaps imagining what our character would want to do) want to do in the here and now, will we treat ourselves or our characters right?

DestinyCall · 2020-10-17 22:31:28

I take the long view. My in-game character sees through the veil and knows the truth. That one hour, one life is but a tiny drop in the ocean of Time. That even though our individual lives are insignificant, what we do now matters, because future generations will build upon the foundation we create for them. Nothing lasts forever, but if we work together our legacy will echo through time, helping our children's children and beyond.

Or ... you know ... just spend your life making bean burritos cause it is fun to squish the dough balls. It's a game. No need to take everything super seriously, my broski.

One Hour One Life Forums

#1 2020-10-15 23:05:35

kill the sheep

#2 2020-10-15 23:17:10

Re: kill the sheep

#3 2020-10-15 23:19:34

Re: kill the sheep

#4 2020-10-15 23:34:38

Re: kill the sheep

#5 2020-10-16 00:42:21

Re: kill the sheep

#6 2020-10-16 05:31:28

Re: kill the sheep

#7 2020-10-16 06:52:02

Re: kill the sheep

#8 2020-10-16 07:03:50

Re: kill the sheep

#9 2020-10-16 07:25:25

Re: kill the sheep

#10 2020-10-16 14:26:58

Re: kill the sheep

#11 2020-10-16 19:55:02

Re: kill the sheep

#12 2020-10-16 21:23:25

Re: kill the sheep

#13 2020-10-16 22:51:07

Re: kill the sheep

#14 2020-10-16 22:54:10

Re: kill the sheep

#15 2020-10-17 01:01:42

Re: kill the sheep

#16 2020-10-17 02:48:05

Re: kill the sheep

#17 2020-10-17 05:10:28

Re: kill the sheep

#18 2020-10-17 15:27:28

Re: kill the sheep

#19 2020-10-17 16:08:36

Re: kill the sheep

#20 2020-10-17 16:46:28

Re: kill the sheep

#21 2020-10-17 16:53:52

Re: kill the sheep

#22 2020-10-17 20:28:47

Re: kill the sheep

#23 2020-10-17 22:05:28

Re: kill the sheep

#24 2020-10-17 22:14:49

Re: kill the sheep

#25 2020-10-17 22:31:28

Re: kill the sheep

Board footer