a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
You are not logged in.
Pages: 1
Just having fun thinking that a pictogram language could be etched, or placed, or spoken, rather than just words letters. Which... what if when you spoke, the words changed into the icons/graphics of the items in the world. Like if I said, "give me the hatchet", it would show to others like "give me the |>" (| + > = the image in this forum text). It could be somewhat emoji like, but with the added benefit that if a player leaves a hatched and a wood next to one another, it could have a different meaning, and it wouldn't be like leaving a sign. This is more of a ridiculous idea, tons of overhead, but again, just having fun with your game. I would take letters left on a grid space as an improvement. Even an Arrow you can orient when you place (like the stakes you bang and rotate) would be a great thing to have.
Anyway, about the obstacles. I think immigration happens a lot not just because of the land being perceived better or worse "here", but also imagining that what's beyond the big obstacle that could bring improvements. I'm gonna start a post about Humanity in this game, but this gets to that: exploration! I wonder that often when I see an abandoned house in the middle of somewhere, but the house is near a river - a source of life, of energy, etc... why would anyone leave? yet they do. My point is that exploring, as a goal, is sometimes as simple as not seeing the end of an object on screen... chasing its end is engaging. It can help players not become too set and comfortable in an environment or in their ways; and seeing a river all the way to its source, or hiking around this seemingly impassible mountain, would attract curiosity about the world. Everyone knows about the Grand Canyon, or the Rocky mountains, or the Nile, or the Amazon, etc. When people tell of others of that part of the world that they went to, they don't just talk about the country, they share stories about the thing that people overcome and settle around, regardless of how it impacts their survival chances, or how they have it "bad". Case in point: Iceland. I've been there and Icelanders, woah! how they have survived that place!! It's as if it's actively trying to push them out. They have very few resources: mostly sheep, reuse things like craycray, and have explored every inch of their volcanic, yet frozen, unwelcoming, beautiful and terrible natural, almost untouched island. This is even in their Sagas, where they left to find other better places, didn't and kept coming back, exploring the Fjords, Glaciers, etc. Seafarers, sure, but I hope you get the gist of the environments impact on a people and their curiosity.
Sorry for the delay. Your bones look like my bones, except MUCH more stretched but our bones look much different than kids' bones. That would be the first difference. Between males and females, bone wise, the only real difference is the pelvis, and perhaps under the scalpel, bone densities at different ages; bone density isn't something I would focus on, though. The pelvis could be a significant difference for this game. Not too deep, just something to contemplate while roaming around the world and seeing dead people. You've spent enough time developing the different aging stages for both males and females, once they die, the game could do something minimal to establish that their lives mattered, or that their lives were not fully finished.
I think that this game needs world obstacles. This would then become an additional challenge to players. Set up site, gather resources, set out to cross the river by finding its thin point. Or find resources to build boat, or find resources to build bridge. Other than building a home, I have no real reason to travel across the 4b^2 tiles. Obstacles I think would be useful: rivers, shores/sea, lakes, holes, hills, etc
After getting used to all the environment, if nothing changes, what would be the reason for me to trek and risk the place that I've been manicuring for myself? That seems to become the main goal, to create a patch of land that I can last 60 years. Maybe I have to protect it, or leave it, but only once I know that I've made sufficient progress to stay there replenished or have exhausted all benefits of that place.
Once I've traveled distances, if many of us have crossed through the same areas, a path/trail should emerge. If it's dynamic, player created, you may get a lot of investigation out of some kind of wear or road construction by the player, especially after the player that builds it dies and others are left to wonder where the path leads.
Lastly, players/humans, tend to leave communication to others through the written language. DO you have any plans for directions that players can leave to others? Maybe in the form of a sign, or word writing on the dirt, scratch your initials on the dirt or some tree, etc. All roads lead to rome, and are probably labeled accordingly.
I'd like for my bones or bones of those I find to be unique of the kind of person they were while alive, especially now that all things wither, which means there's some environmental storytelling going on.
Also, not all things should deplete. For instance, it seems dissonant that there's more earth behind the grass IRL. Instead of having piles that deplete, have the ground be a square that is consumed by "tilling" or making into pliable/loose earth. Then deplete that one, and then till/plow it, at which point I can't use it anymore. Having two piles of dirt like things don't balance out well, considering that they all walk on the same earth all around. Water can be a much more precious resource, but it outlines something about the world: they'd all be dead without a river of sorts or weather that provides that water. Clay, while it may be a much more rare resource (than dirt, not water), could follow the same convention as mentioned here with dirt. In order to make the "everything exhausts" concept still be true, wither the fertile soil to where clay exists or to wheat land, which can't be loosened or be planted onto without water. It would make an additional goal of having an irrigation plan to make an environment fertile again.
Josh, how do you think that the current game would change because of the number of people and their longevity? I've been playing it frequently, and I keep imagining that some of the issues will either be solved by the masses or exacerbated by them, especially when trying to synchronize the things that we would be trying to build together, or amidst a lot of clutter left by others. But when playing and thinking of what feels in-theme, I don't know how to project and resolve it based on player numbers and on-screen items. Maybe some kind of Fits law calculation?
Jason could you move the "Sex lightning rod" to its own forum topic entry. I think that's a subject worthy of discussing.
Back to food... after v29 (+kindling fix)
The food fear is gone; instead of Food Fear, I Feel Full easily most of the time. I guess this is one of those numerical problems that will either be a super magical number, or a dynamic that balances itself out with a lot of people on a server. Feels like a bad conclusion to say that it's too easy.
Food: main issue I feel is that I have no real reason to make more food, since a berry bush is easy to grow, easy to find, easy to plant and manage throughout the entirety of a Homo OHOL. With berries around, I don't see the reason to make fire to prepare and eat anything different. If I want to help the world, a sharp rock + berries are a dominant strategy.
Reasons why I wouldn't eat a rabbit frequently; I must eat it once to move up on the tree, which makes a rabbit a key:
Creates trash I can't remove until the carcass disappears
Infinite bones/needles I don't need...
Only consumed once
Requires trap being made, set up, cleaning up the rabbit,
storing fur is a pain after a while
I need fire to make it... Fire is somewhat annoying to make
I can screw it up and burn it
Steps of Berry:
Pick
Click on self: eat
Or: place on floor, hit with sharp rock 2 times... wait, repeat.
But then, once being able to survive easily, makes the game all about climbing through the tree. There are some elements of the game that seem to simulate or resemble a primitive version of humans (I know you're not going for that Jason; I've read through reddit and the videos etc). However, a lot of our food requirements come from things that uniqueness of each meal. Sickness comes from that; energy, lethargy, sleepiness. Food is a chemical fuel, and right now the fuel is flat in benefit. At the moment, the food is your health, it takes away some challenge once full, and takes away some humanity from the characters. In real life, I eat different things sometimes because of boredom. In the game, the food has no "flavor", nor uniqueness, nor health.
I love, love, love the idea that the elder gets a word from the "game spirit"! It's like an evolution of the word/speech amount... A baby can say a few letters, that grows with age into full words, which would be useful to short commands. However, "thinking" shows up after a while because age allows one to be contemplative. The brain works more than the body does. I've been making a game about the elderly for the better part of this year; I love this subject!
My grandparents, when I was little, would tell me what to go get so that I could then go a thing. Like get a ladder, or get a rope and get a tool... reach where they couldn't. Go catch/feed chicken, go find some eggs. Cook this this way, "make me coffee, dark, with this amount of sugar, like X person". For example, my grandma's "pinch" amount is different than my moms. Pick the chillies, don't eat them (I ate them, wanted to die). "please go get culantro". "where?" I'd ask, "where the dogs pee". "Make me a tea of xyz leaves for my stress".
Now, when I take my grandma (she's 92 minutes old out to check on her garden, she talks and talks, she lists and points to the things that are growing, how they're grown, how she planted them, care for, and how long it's taken to sprout, what kind of thing you can do with the fruit... She also says what she doesn't get to grow in Orlando's climate/dirt vs back home, what she misses, how to protect from rodents. But she can't be out very long, so it's always a short walk before we go to the shade and she tells me to go check on the flowers again, talk about how wonderful her children are, if I'm hungry, then walk out again, etc. "Move this here, fix this here. Bring this to me" all are said often. BTW, I don't get that information while inside the house, we talk about inside things. And she doesn't remember food recipes very well unless she's near food. it's always and almost exclusively while she's DOING something, or near a thing, like muscle memory singing.
When the elders die, you tend to remember their words more vividly, the things they liked, their methods, and memories of what they did or said sprout up when you're near their house/location.
Those aren't bees, they're wasps, "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!", Don't step on that, Don't sit down here, ... i.e. teaching! After a while they ask about my world, "how do YOU do something with a computer", but they really just want you to do it for them... Elders do kinda break past things down into what it has, what its called, and what to do with things. However, elders do both Top Down and bottom Up sharing.
What if in addition to getting the hints yourself (as the elder EVE), others do too while they share the same screen space with an elder... everyone gets near by knowledge?
In reference to the "popping out babies" comment, what's the purpose of males or gender at the moment?
That would be very useful!
Why not both "bottom up" "top down"? It's like OOP, "is a" or "has a"; this game adds a "does a". Bonus: TD won't require multiple pages, only one single item hint, not all of its possibilities. Complex items would work the same way: Full Car {Empty Car + ...}. i.e. I think players do both BU/TD and create online strategy guides when either is missing.
IRL, I can't make a car, but I can disassemble it. Upon doing this, I will find many things I already know about, though...
IRL, when I stumble on a "hatchet", which I've never made nor seen anyone make, I'm probably going to think of both what I can do with it, and what it's made of, maybe in that order for a hatchet, but not on food, where I'd rather know what's in it and than how it's prepared. A hammer still works this way at the store. I've seen tons different ones, but I'm looking for the one that can do and undo a nail + that is made of a metal and a wood. If I break the wood, I know I could fix it, if I break the metal I would be SOL.
Perhaps this is as simple as putting the material on the name of the item... but that feels clunky.
I often find a small cluster of things that others made, and have no clue about what it took to make it. And not knowing what resources I need to further it, I go on to another place I can make a cluster of my own, since that, at least, gives me something to do.
I've had problems with the know how required for a water bottle/skin (make it, fill it, use it) even though I know it involves rabbit skin because of what I see with my eyes on the screen, not because of what the character helps me discover in the world. Finding axiomatic items (and End items: those that can't do anything else) would also be surprises, a rabbit is made of {rabbit}; i.e. one wouldn't see {rabbit != meat + fur}.
IRL, I would think it takes a fur, some heat, and needle and thread, and I'm sure I'm not that far off. Now, ingame, the game's thought process doesn't get revealed much, and that may be what you like, which I can understand it especially if it's mostly about moving forward throughout civilization... then it doesn't need to teach about the world, just about what one can do, much like a playground one visits.
However, i feel characters are somewhat intelligent and know things about the world. So, when dedicating contemplation/study on an object for a couple of seconds (weeks for an Homo-OHOL), I wish they would share both what you could do with it AND where it's made of.
What if when the player looks at an item, it showcases a thought bubble instead of a speech bubble, and it fills it with half of the recipe of that item.
If mouse is hovering over sharp rock (after 5 seconds - Jason said: 1 second is 6 days... meaning they're studying it for a month), Sharp Rock: a thought shows up above the character's head and says: Round Rock + Hit:_______).
A studied hatchet says: "Tied short Shaft + Item:______"
Eventually, an end of civilization player would look at a car and only see the two items that it needs, but in order to go all the way back to the axiomatic item, they would have to reverse engineer the world too.
Which brings me to Death. Jason posted a quote saying that "death is largely meaningless...), and I can see that nothing happens during death. But what if when a player is in the "[OK] death" screen, one sees the item (recipes) being constructed in the server being broadcast like thoughts popping up and fading away on the screen. That way, if one dies, there's a purpose to living and dying again. It's like Socrates (I'm about to butcher philosophy here but whatevs) Phaedo and Death, or one of those books, socrates talks a bit about "how the soul has knowledge that is given to one upon living" or "knowing between death". I may be recalling this so badly, gimme hemlock anyway. The point is that when one dies in this game, the death screen suggests that there's no life after death, and that would be true if the player can't play again. But since the player can, AND the player will carry that knowledge between lives, then it could be purposeful to help the player while dead by gifting some information to them through the actions of other living players.
This would also keep me from having to look at a recipe guide, which I know players will do (create and review) anyway, but my main question is, why can't I learn more about the world through observation like in real life? So much of this game is done only via trial and error, or another player showing me, that if I were to be EVE, I couldn't learn anything by myself unless I tried/died/tried/died, and so on. That last bit would maybe get me to the iphone, but it would take so long by myself that I would stop caring long before I can mine that glass.
Thought bubbles?
Food Fear or Starvation Fear (FF/SF): it's not the problem of the rate nor of the system itself, it's in the interface speed in which one can actuate or solve hunger. This is because of 2 separate issues: Grid Space (around the player) to food source occupying that space, and hand/inventory management skill while eating (player skill at moving the mouse).
Berry Bush (static food source)
A world square diagram: _ = empty, 0 = Food, P = Player, X = Occupied, B = Best useful (if empty) space, W = Worst space, T = Trouble
Two main situations, Hands Free:
The player always has a surrounding grid space of 7 (6 because it’s difficult to interact with the grid space directly above the player) next to a food source, and if the player is working near a food source, that space is reduced to 5. Optimally, the player is diagonally above the source (3 best spaces), otherwise it will be below and behind (2 best spaces). Again, above is only good if dropping an item, not picking it up.
{_}{T}{W}{T}
{_}{B}{P}{B}
{_}{0}{B}{T}
Hands Occupied
This one involves the player having to move (action: click on the space and make the correct click so that it does what you want when you get there), Waiting for the food to get to the player, then activating food on self. It’s the movement that kills you, on top of the game not making the character smart enough to help the player.
{B}{T}{X}{T}{B}
{B}{T}{P}{T}{B}
{B}{0}{T}{T}{B}
Solution:
1. if waking past a food source, and lower than 4, auto eat, much like auto reload.
1.a Allow for a player to not starve while food is on hand; the food item gets consumed. If One could auto eat, that would alleviate the FF
2. Allow for different food sources to fill each square differently, but let them stack to an optimum squares occupied.
[`]=good food lasts 3x time, [-]=medium 2x, and [_], [e] = empty (change these to pencilled in squares). Then allow for the temperature to showcase the different quality (not necessarily color, maybe a different darkness of the penciled in square) of the food squares.
2.a The optimal meter center: (((-))) is the best place to be filled to.
for example: [C][`][`][`][`][`][`][`][`](-)((-))(((-)))((-))(-)[_][_][_][_][_][e][e][e][e][e]... ([C] is crawling, crying)
For instance, if too full, make player go slowly, if near enough to center (((-))), make the player go as fast as possible. You already have a similar feature with the temperature.
3. Don’t let the player die automatically. Vesticator (I think) suggested to sit down. I’m a fan of it, or crawling slowly if moving from that place, since it produces an action, letting the player at or below 2 squares sit/crawl, like a baby (make the baby crawl too), and point them to finding a food source. At the point they’re at 0 (if adult, babies die), allow them to choose to die of starvation, not auto die, like an animal that wont eat. And make auto-death happen only when age reaches 60; makes it more meaningful. It’s one hour One Life, not One Stomach one Life. This pointing to food source could be used to point to mama, or berry bush.
4. Let a player eat things even though they’re not prepared perfectly. Humans, way back when - or one could also say today, could stomach more things than the unaccustomed to hard foods. So I dub the characters Homo blankus (not knowing what species specifically)… even if they’re homo sapiens, many get used to certain diets while they’re growing up. If famished, i would eat a carrot without needing a sharp stone (make it not require one). Make the rabbit give more if cooked, but let the player eat them without needing a big tool. Let the player catch a rabbit with another tool, but give less of the rabbit unless trapped and skinned properly.
5. I know that making the player auto find food would be resource consuming for the program, but make the player see more of the world, and make the baby see less. Or have a "burning bush" at a central place that players will be pointed to automatically when starving. The game needs a "holly spirit" assist, especially when new to the game.
$0.02
If I have any issue with the art is the spideriness of the pubic hair. It's as if the characters are caught between being a hairy ape kind and a human that has done away with the necessity of having hair. It brings up the question of women and shaving for demonstrating their female traits and the man being hairy to demonstrate his. This has the effect of dividing them through the grooming behavior we associate with ourselves today. I consider a bonus, not necessarily obvious, shown in the difference between your new characters: some are bald and some aren't... that description is a natural result of our evolution, not the active display of our gendered costumes of outward appearance.
In other words, either both are hairy because we are when we let things GrOw or current social norms are being displayed via their nudity (thats kind of weird thinking on my part perhaps).
I recommend that the animation could help here: jibbly bits! Women have two lumps, and men have one lump. They flop freely and naturally and realistically BECAUSE of our natural bodies, not because of any pruning on out parts. Keep hair off as to remove the grooming habits of our era, and to keep the depiction of our sex honestly "Front facing".
Pages: 1