a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building
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In brazilian portuguese we have this expression which translates to neither 8 nor 80 and it applies to my reactions to Jason pretty well
It means not taking things by the extremes, not overdoing something when trying to fix it.
Both rabbits and ponds should really be nerfed, but this is just killing the chance of any wild territory ever feeling wild after the first time it's occupied which I think has nothing to do with the problem with resource contention in the first place
But Jason will eventually realize when he takes 10 seconds to analise food data and sees how ridiculously well we can live feeding off of wild berries.
Also, fuck you if you need needles
I agree, we should be nerfing base food sources if we want food consumption rates to increase.
honestly I think it's way past the time jason should remove the base +2 bonus and add some more lower tech food recipes (stuff like berry + burdock pie) and ways to process good foods even further ( dairy update?)
making springs and even ponds slightly rarer helps as well.
We just can't afford having a stable berry munching economy and expect it to deplete our resources
So, the update didn't exactly change much right?
don't get me wrong, making water more consistent is nice but I really wished oil would get more valuable. I guess springs are more than enough though.
is this a bug or was it intended for apocs to not reopen eve window?
Im tired of discussing design or anything really with you spoonwood
Not only because you're 99.8% of the time wrong and made a meme at this point but because of how unrelated to the issues presented your responses are
Jason has said time and time again he doesn't care if he kills the game trying to make it closer to his vision which includes the possibility of everyone dying to famines/civs fucking up majourly and getting to live in a dying world
This is the hardness that this game needs, its why heat update was important and why the game kept going after it despite you insisting at the time it was absolutely broken. Yiu were wrong back then and you're wrong now.
I'll hate Jason's fuck ups as much as anyone but you just take it to the next level, why are you still even here?
Hi, what are your opinions on oil after the last update? Is it too hard to find? Did you see any depleted spot in the past days or towns that died because of it?
How about water? Were you ever in a life in which there were no more springs or other source of water?
Iron? stones? Tell me everything folks.
thanks
I'll leave this comment here to quote myself in the future
Ohol has good and bad updates, and usually it's as following
Good updates: bugfixes, base mechanic tweaks, survival related content/rebalances, aesthetic content
Bad updates: novelty content, new-quickly designed mechanics, old mechanic overhaul.
The rift started out as a pain in the ass but will slowly get more interesting, we're constantly around 70 active players this past week, it's a good season.
Just wait till the next big unorthodox mechanical addition and the player pop drop. Then you can also quote me.
Booklat1 wrote:Horses should definitely have at least one big disadvantage in relation to cars. They could also die after some years of course.
Or go the other direction.
If horses live forever and don't need to be fed or cared for in any particular way ... why not let the car run forever on one tank of gas?
Because every time we make the game easier we get further from resource scarcity/realistic economy/barter which Jason clearly wants. I know you want a fun game about people taking care of each other communaly and it's cute but ohol hasn't really been aiming for that since forever. And frankly, I'd much rather have constant deaths by famine than Jason deciding the game is too boring and adding swords/mass genocide.
Idk exactly how hard the game needs to be, it doesn't even need to be hard all the time, but the feeling of "oh shit we might all die" should be an integral part of some playthroughs.
Yeah, i didnt mind boys named mary
One idea: if motor isn't portable in a cart, but it can be removed from a car, then a car is useful as a mobile motor transport (to move the engine from place to place).
Honestly, cars should be able to carry extra engines, not just theit own. That and a buff to their carrying capacity and we might use them.
Horses should definitely have at least one big disadvantage in relation to cars. They could also die after some years of course.
Yes, this is true. Tracking live expiration times for 500,000 map cells (or more) isn't practical, though.
This is somewhat mitigated by the elder fence removal, though there's still a small time delay there.
Also, people are running around fetching 32x32 map chunks, so these "gaps" between layers of fences would have to be pretty big to work.
Can't we check for some items every hour or so? Is that more viable than live checking, I mean
I like this update, I really want to see how springs/stones/steel are going to be valued now.
I'll throw in some predictions here
Round stones and springs will become much more valuable now, maybe civs will really start migrating on a more regular base.
Iron wil definitely start running out again which I think is a win/win
I wouldn`t mind some sort of /whisp that only appears to those standing in adjacent tiles or something
If we has towns it could be cool if we had some sort of "unlocking tech" mechanism over time. With town being able to unlock different types of tech.
That said, our current tech is too much "all or nothing", I don't see any way of locking part of the tech tree besides oil, engines or oddities like radios or cars. Maybe pies? But what's the point? lol
Access to tech isn't really the problem, pacing is. Jason has tools to design how long till we need to upgrade a well, how desperate we are when we get to oil, how fast oil is consumed after it's obtained. It's no easy work but it's doable. He has a single pathway to tweek parameters of, biochemists and industrial engineers do this with multiple pathways all the time, I have no doubt Jason is competent enough to figure out a way to slow techrush down.
Wells are a very good example, the more water they have the harder they are to empty/upgrade and also the less need to upgrade them fast. And since regen can also be greatly reduced we have a somewhat defined amount of time for these stages. Pressure to get oil can come later, and other challenges can be arranged for each techtree stage, like how producing lots of coal was at first a proper town job when pumps were introduced.
Even back then you didn't know if your town would make it (like eve starts now) and you just built because thats what you do anyways.
well that's the thing, not knowing is better than knowing it'll at best last a week
I don't even care for longterm town permanence all that much, I'm honestly ok if its a rare occurrence but having that possibility is certainly a great sort of fun for the game. I would like to see what kind of towns would exist if they kept being depopulated and reoccupied in the rift.
Finding ruins is extremely rewarding tbh.
I would really like us to build stuff too Jason.Walls and fences and gates and locks.
It's kinda funny, our sight distance is perfect for communicating inside buildings but not so much to build a house or move inside a walled city. I think this one is unfortunately a reason of why we build less.
Fences are also still a pain to set up, specially gates since rope is one important commodity. I think they're quite well balanced at this point but like you pointed out, it's hard to build anything sufficiently large that isn't clunky. Specially after spending most of your life building an engine.
Yes, i don't actually disagree with what you say
Which is why i think the techtree needs a redesign somewhat soon. As you're nailing down the rift (and you kinda are) you'll have a much more controlled environment to design the pacing of the techtree.
But that's the thing, this pacing is really fast at the moment, to a point no family interactions stop staleness. In fact it's so fast it doesn't really allow much interaction in a first moment. I'll gladly wait for the rift to be as optimised as possible but different tech stages are a crucial point in creating diverse play scenarios.
I think dyes and pigments are precisely resources that should run out, though not so easily.
Aesthetic and status are great reasons for resource exploration and conflicts.
I purposefully didn't say it in my previous post but as JK mentioned, laxk of overall variance is also terribly harmful for the game.
Single techtree, single combo of starting biomes, you've actively tried to keep these as such, so of course the game gets stale after a while. RPing diplomat with other families over nearly infinite food doesn't change that.
Jason, the lack of actual pacing in techtree climbing is much more of a cause for staleness than few families.
I know you've talked about how it's hard to create a techtree we won't just rush and I know you are absolutely right, but every improvement here would greatly benefit the game long term in a way that forcing multi-family populations just won't.
Long arcs will always be stale if we reach endgame in two hours. The techtree is a much more evident aspect of a civs development than the number of families remaining and thus is also a much more visible indicator of overall endgame game state.
Honestly, what seems harder to implement a techtree with many well punctuated steps or a set of mechanics based in population genetics that make people deeply care about their families even though they're given no guarantee they'll ever see their families again nor any major benefits for caring? I know there's plenty of researchers who spent their lives doing brilliant math on population genetics, Morgan, Hubby, Lewontin, J Gould, all of which you could get into if you really wanted families to feel viscerally important. I just don't think you have to. We're animals, we do already have the instinct to care, you just gotta start setting up stakes for what happens when we lose after working hard to survive. "Do we lose the techtree and the families we've worked for during the last week?" feels much tougher of a question when the techtree doesn't get topped at a few hours.
Longterm it is, but it doesn't really stop a sneaky engineer to remove it.
It's not political in the sense engines aren't powered by trust and friendship magic like fences are, which makes fences a much better target for the elder mechanic, as they tap on the same form of "power source".
It's an engine, a material object that was placed in a spring, it should be removeable with the right tools and expertise.
But honestly it could be either as long as it follows the rule that ~things that are hard to make are hard to steal.
I'm with pein here, rather make it just taking a few more steps to remove than mess with elder approval in this specific case. I like elder mechanic but I get the feeling this is more of a technical item removal than a political one.
Oh this is a nice post
The way I see it, Jason might come back to working on core features after the rift is more stable.
Food decay specifically opens a great space for techtree branches but let's not forget that there are still many open branches that need to be optimized or repurposed (like walled buildings, rails and cars)
I don't think Jason would argue that a chance based system or some other form of tie mechanic would be beneficial. It's basic game theory that "x always wins" is not a very fruitful scenario for making different choices. Change X to attacker and that's the system we have.
It could be something really simple such as a 50/50 chance or something very gimmicky involving yum and genetic fitness. Hopefully it's at least intuitive.
yes, you do hurt us, because you waste resources that people who actually bother to learn the game produce
It doesn't kill the family because this far food has been a very easy survival condition to meet, don't expect this to last to the end of the rift experiment, specially if you go claiming in the forums that its ridiculously easy not to starve (which is most definitely true).
either way, teaching people that inefficiency is efficient will not be allowed here as misinformation is something i'll very gladly expunge.
There's no survival reason that would justify producing and eating corn raw over turning it into milk if your village has a cow. Yum is not a reason , which has been explained a hundred times, because better foods are also better for yum. It's not only a lazy habit but a lazy excuse to say bad foods are ok for yum and that it doesn't matter. Even if survivability is ultimately not affect it's still a poor strategy that should not be encouraged by these dozens of posts of absolute newbies that are charmed by the extra pips of yum and try to convince people to eat crap.