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#1 Re: Main Forum » Newb Baby booms! Jason please read » Yesterday 04:56:50

Or if individual mothers had a baby cap to prevent one woman becoming the mother of millions.    This would also have the effect of giving experienced mothers more time to teach their new children.

#2 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-28 15:44:55

I am not dismissing your views.   Just sharing my own.   

People will often talk about how the game was much better in the past, but they forget that at the time, we had many of the same complaints that we are facing now.   Boredom, repetitive game-play, excessive griefing, etc.   This game has struggled with giving players a clear purpose beyond raw survival for a long time.  Once we reach a stable town state, things quickly start to fall apart.

Some issues have gotten better or worse, thanks to various updates and new mechanics, but many of these core issues are largely unchanged despite the passage of time.

#3 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-28 15:29:51

Does it really matter that the paver costs a couple jugs of oil if it helps dozens of people rediscover lost towns filled with resources?   Think of all the jugs of oil and water that are left behind every time a town dies out.   All of it just sitting around, gathering dust.

The Road acts as a valuable landmark.    You can use it to identify where you are in relationship to past towns, so you can get back to them more easily.   Compared with wandering around in a truck in the wilderness, it is much more efficient.

You should definitely clear the path well before starting the paver to minimize downtime and keep costs down, but I am sure that the Road pays for itself as long as enough people work on it to keep pace with westward expansion.   

It just sucks that we are catapulting westward at such an absurd rate.

#4 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-28 00:52:34

Spoonwood wrote:

So to get clear, we were talking about a paved road, not a flat rock road.  Destiny, have you forgotten how an engine gets made?  Have you looked into what is needed for oil?  It's necessary to have rubber to make a newcomen atmospheric core to make a newcomen multipurpose engine to make pipes for to drill for oil.  A paver involves an engine.  According to Merriam Webster's vital means of the utmost importance:

A paved road thus can't be vital for a family to obtain those resources, since no family would have been able to make a paver without getting specialty resources in the first place, or having relevant objects from those specialty resources.

Also, an east-west road running through the center mountain band area of the map won't tell you a direction to go if the road gets built for exchange purposes.  For exchange purposes, it would be better to build roads towards areas with expert waystones.  They don't have to go into areas with waystones, just near them.  Travel wise, it's faster to travel along diagonal roads than roads going up and then turning left or right.  So, old style flat stone roads can work out faster for trading purposes, since they can get built diagonally with ease.

I am aware that we are talking about a paved road, but I am confused why that matters.   The Road is for everyone.   It exists and extends further and further west, as long as we continue to build it.   Even if I come from a village without rubber and oil, I can help to build the Road, because we already started the Road and we keep on extending it.   You can join the road crew, even if you are from an Eve camp, because clearing the path ahead of the paver is most of the work involved in extending an existing paved road.

Personally, I enjoy the rhythm of building a flat stone road and I prefer them for short paths or for connecting individual villages to a main road, but building flat stone roads is very time intensive.   It takes multiple lives to complete even a few hundred feet to connect two nearby villages.   I have had the problem of spending all day connecting two towns, only for one of the villages to die out before the road was done. 

Very disappointing.  :-(

For longer stretches and especially for building a road that stretches into infinity, the paver makes a lot more sense.

#5 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-28 00:24:09

Is it possible that NoTruePunk was working on extending the road when those babies starved?   

As a road-builder myself, I have experienced problems with juggling motherhood and road-construction.   Since it involves traveling far away from the village and easy food options, it can be difficult or impossible to keep all children alive.

Without knowing more about the situation faced by Mona Peaches, I can't say if the line ending was intentional or simply a bad mix of personal choice, misadventure and adverse circumstances.   

I am sure I have been unknowingly responsible for the death of a family or two over the years, because I decided to go on a big adventure instead of staying near the fire to pump out kids.   Doesn't mean I hate babies or wanted the family to die.   I just don't always pay attention to village demographics and how many other girls are around before I run into the woods, half-naked.  I am a free spirit.  It is my way.

Also, looking over that family line, technically, Mona did manage to produce one daughter that made it to 18 years old.   So she did not completely fail at mothering, even if she didn't become a grandmother.  And although the family line ended, the last generation of Peaches was actually birthed by Mang Peaches, a distant cousin of Mona.   She produced three babies and none lived past infancy.

#6 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 22:52:04

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk played as Mona Peaches, as one can learn by reading the discord.  There exist several users who say this first and likely use leader board information.  NoTruePunk said himself:

NoTruePunk wrote:

I think I was mona
milkman lives
idk what the hell was wrong with my children

Mona Peaches starved 5 children: … id=6775626

NoTruePunk says:

NoTruePunk wrote:

Our biggest enemy in this game is the eve spawn pushing us further out ...

But, he helped to starve out a lineage, and thus contributed to producing another Eve spawn.

Okay.   But I don't understand what that has to do with this discussion.   

Are you suggesting that NoTruePunk secretly desires to spread out Eve spawns even further and his efforts to build a giant road to connect distant towns is actually a clever ruse to throw off suspicion from his true motivations?

I'm perplexed.

#7 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 20:53:24

Who is Mona Peaches and what do they have to do with this conversation.    I am beyond confused.

Also, I do not use Discord.   I have heard that talking can spread Covid, so I have taken a vow of silence until the end of 2020.  Best not to take any chances.

#8 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-27 20:25:23

The rift had its own set of problems and I am glad it was removed.  It is easy to remember the past through rose-colored glass.   Life in the rift was hella repetitive and the arcs were very short.   Nothing lasted and you could expect everything to be wrecked and awful within a day or two, because the box was too small and griefing was rampant.  Many people were very unhappy with rift gameplay and with good reason.  It was "different" and "dramatic" but it lacked a lot of what I love about OHOL.  You can only have your entire family eaten by bears so many times before it gets kinda boring and predictable.

That being said, there were some good things about the rift that could have been leveraged into interesting new game mechanics - like the idea of using geographic barriers (oceans/mountains) as a way of restricting or defining different regions to allow for easier long-distance navigation and to make the open map feel less repetitive and endless.  Prior to the rift, I rarely traveled outside of town or went long distances, because a thousand tiles felt really really far away.   After the rift, I knew that I could actually run a long distance in just 15 minutes and it changed how I viewed my game space.   Although I found the rigid cube-shape unnatural and off-putting, I liked that I could use the rift edges to orient myself to the rift and navigate around without a map.   In a randomly generated open world, that is impossible.   Banded geography does something similar, at least along one axis.  I see that as a positive, since it gives people more options and helps them understand where they are in the game world, which can be super helpful.

Unfortunately,  I feel like the wrong lessons were learned from the rift "experiement" and instead of evolving into something more interesting, development has ended up stuck in a rut lately.

Biome restrictions are definitely an example of sunk-cost fallacy.  They haven't really worked from the beginning in my opinion, and building more mechanics around them hasn't made them any better, just harder to get rid of.    At this point we are "stuck" with them, because I can't see Jason taking them out completely after trying so hard to make this method get the results he wants.  It would feel like throwing away a year of progress, even if it made the game better and opened up new avenues for advancement.

#9 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 17:58:29

Spoonwood wrote:

NoTruePunk said:

NoTruePunk wrote:

I just want to build a road.

As a phrase of speech, that isn't a way of speaking truly.  It isn't speaking in an honest manner.

And I just want you to realize that everything doesn't need to be so black or white.   That doesn't mean I don't have other stuff going on in my life.   

If you take everything this literally, it must feel like everyone is lying all the time.

#10 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 17:54:30

Spoonwood wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

All families are tied together due to certain game mechanics that I know you are already aware of.   The ones that require certain skin tones to access certain biomes to collect certain resources.   You know the ones I am talking about.

I've spent many lives traveling to Eve camps and getting them specialty biome resources.  I've also seen similar traveling for resources happen on Twitch.  The traveling is north-southish or diagonal.  NoTruePunk's road is horizontal.  It can be helpful, but no it's not vital.

Eve camps don't need rubber.   Eve camps don't need oil.  But there comes a point where an older village does need those things.   That is the point when the road serves a vital purpose, by speeding up travel between distant families.   There are other ways to achieve the same objective, but that does not negate the importance of a long road.

#11 Re: Main Forum » Please help build the road (with instructions) » 2020-11-27 16:20:11

Spoonwood wrote:

As a phrase of speech it's still not true.

That's not how figures of speech work.  They are non-literal.  So a figure of speech is not intended to be "true" or "false" in the same way as a statement of fact.   When you kick the bucket, no actual bucket needs to get kicked.  When you   have butterflies in your stomach, there are no actual bugs in your belly.   The words mean something different from the literal interpretation.   Assuming a literal meaning is false and leads to confusion and misunderstandings.

Spoonwood wrote:

Also, how would not having the central road kill player characters or lineages?  How does Eve spawning pushing characters further out kill families?  NoTruePunk's claim is that the road is vital, not merely convenient.  Do you really think that's the case?  Do you really think Eves spawning further that big of an enemy?

I think the answer to these questions are pretty obvious.   All families are tied together due to certain game mechanics that I know you are already aware of.   The ones that require certain skin tones to access certain biomes to collect certain resources.   You know the ones I am talking about.

You do not need the road to start an Eve camp, but if you expect that family to survive beyond a certain point, the village will need access to rubber and oil.   The road gives you access to other families and, through them, you gain access to those resources.   That is why the road is vital.

Without a way to reconnect to other families, the constant western march of Eve spawns separates each village by wider and wider margins, until it becomes extremely difficult to connect with each other and share necessary resources in a timely fashion, ultimately dooming the village to a slow death by dehydration.

#12 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-26 08:22:22

Yeah, you are probably right.   Have a good Thanksgiving.

#13 Re: Main Forum » WIP: Mapping One Hour One Life » 2020-11-26 07:53:09

And thank you, Spoonwood, for giving me a good laugh as I imagined someone creating a breath-takingly beautiful penis on Wondible's map, worthy of its own spot in the Louvre.

#14 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-26 07:43:51

Hailerm wrote:
Eve Troll wrote:

You're right, you won, we should just stufu.

ok hippie bitch

And why is this not ban-worthy?  Jesus.  Show a little respect.

#15 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-26 06:25:42

Why is this thread still open?

#16 Re: Main Forum » What happened here? » 2020-11-26 04:39:58

In hindsight, that might have been a mistake.

#17 Re: Main Forum » A change in residence » 2020-11-26 04:37:03

Cogito wrote:
DestinyCall wrote:

The assumption that "desert = hot" is not accurate.

I generally agree with what you've been saying, and like the ideas, however let's not forget we are talking about the desert biome in OHOL - which definitely *is* hot. So the question is should *this* kind of desert get cold, or perhaps some other kind of weather effect. I like the idea of sandstorms from a thematic and gameplay point of view - something like reduced visibility, but you can harvest more sand if you're prepared.

Technically, I was not talking about the OHOL deserts, but rather simply pointing out that there is nothing unrealistic about winter in a desert, in response to PeeGirl's comment.   

As far as I know, the OHOL desert is not intended to be a realistic representation of any particular real world desert.   But if I was to guess, it looks like Jason may have taken inspiration from large deserts in North America, like the Mohave desert.   Both rattlesnakes and barrel cactus are found in the deserts of the southwestern United States. And wild mustangs can be found in adjacent regions, I suppose.  There are other things like glasswort, that do not belong in any desert, but I imagine that was a stylistic choice.

The Mohave desert is a temperate "cold" desert with a discrete winter period where temperatures can drop below zero, so it would be reasonable to expect the OHOL desert could be a temperate desert, if we had actual weather.  The OHOL desert even looks a lot like the Mohave.

If Jason decides to implement weather and seasonal temperature changes, the desert could get colder in winter, but should still be warmer than the normally much colder biomes.   Then in the summer, it gets much hotter, as it is now.

I also like the idea of wind or sand storms in the desert.   The OHOL desert doesn't really look like a sandy desert to me, but high wind conditions are common in most deserts due to the lack of natural wind breaks, like trees, and the atmospheric effects that create the dry hot deserts themselves. 

Unfortunately, I know this idea has been floated before and implementation was troublesome.   OHOL's temperature system is really complex, but not in a way that supports weather effects, to my knowledge.

But it doesn't hurt to dream!

#18 Re: Main Forum » A change in residence » 2020-11-26 01:19:46

There are no snowmen in the desert, because it rarely snows, as I previously stated.  But deserts do have seasons.   And winter in a semi-arid desert is bitter and cold.   

Heck, even a classic deep desert can get a very rare snowfall when conditions are just right, as seen in this photo of the Saharah desert after a snowfall. … -with-snow

But that's not really my point.   

Not all deserts are subtropical.   Some have true winter, like the Gobi desert in Mongolia.  These deserts are sometimes described as "cold deserts", but they should not be confused with tundra and polar regions that are usually cold year round.  Semi-arid deserts have a hot dry summer and a cold winter, like other temperate climates.   

The assumption that "desert = hot" is not accurate.  I blame movies and tv shows.

#19 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-25 23:36:38

Personally, I do not find it enjoyable to hunt down and curse or kill griefers.   It is an unpleasant chore, like taking out the trash.   Not a fun game, like playing tag.

I would much rather have you building planes and having fun in less destructive ways, instead of "spicing up" the game with unnecesasry drama.   I do not see the attraction of hurting other people and destroying their hard work.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

#20 Re: Main Forum » A change in residence » 2020-11-25 23:26:38

PeaGirl wrote:

If weathers would bring out debuffs and buffs, why not.
Though let's keep in mind that winter in desert area is... not gonna be realistic.
Other than that it would seem interesting.

Actually, winter in the desert is realistic.   What would be unrealistic is winter in the jungle.

Deserts are defined by low precipitation, not high temperature.  Some deserts are even located in arctic regions and remain cold all year round.   Other deserts are in temperate climates and have significant seasonal variation, including long cold winters.  The hottest deserts are subtropical, but even these deserts get cooler in the winter and can become frigid cold at night.   Of course, snowfall is rare due to the lack of moisture that is common to all deserts.

Tropical and subtropical regions tend to fluctuated between a stormy/rainy season and a drier season, rather than the traditional four seasons experienced in temperate zones, so winter in the jungle would be weird.

#21 Re: Main Forum » New update is a bullshi* » 2020-11-25 19:20:54

PeaGirl wrote:

Not gonna lie, I feel bad for griefers now.


#22 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-25 16:43:18

Cantface wrote:

You CAN do something that unintentionally negatively effects another person. Just because it wasn't "deliberate" doesn't mean it's not griefing. Is that how you justify it?? Rather than getting the dictionary page up you could think about it with some nuance for a moment. You can do something 'unintentionally' like hit someone with a car or even accidentally kill someone. If you get caught are you going to say "Well I didn't MEAN to officer therefore you can't blame or arrest me!" You'd still go to jail for manslaughter because even if you didn't intend for anyone to get hurt your accidental actions can still cause hurt and harm.

Definitions of griefing vary from person to person, which sometimes makes it really hard to have a discussion about the subject, because you could be arguing about completely different things while agreeing on more than you realize.

Personally, I define a griefer or bad faith player as someone who deliberately irritates and harasses other players within a multi-player game.   Malicious intent is a key component of griefing for me.   So I believe that you cannot grief "on accident" or without realizing it.   It has to be a purposeful action with intent to do harm to others.   In criminal terms, when I talk about griefing I am talking about first degree murder, rather than manslaughter.   You wanted them dead and then you made them dead.      It was intentional malicious act. 

Now, intent is a tricky business.   It is entirely possible for people to be falsely accused of griefing or for someone to believe that they have been griefed and be hurt by someone else's actions, even though their intentions were innocent.   I would not consider that true griefing.   It is a misunderstanding and it sucks almost as badly as the real thing, but it is a different thing, because it was not on purpose and it can be resolved through communication and understanding.

For example, imagine you are a new player and you decide to go make some mutton pies, because there isn't very much food in the kitchen.  So you grab a knife and kill all the sheep.   Someone sees you do it and immediately accuses you of being a griefer.  Other people gather around and they start to curse you and drive you out of town, despite your attempts at explanation.   You come back into town to keep playing and you are immediately stabbed by the town leader and die.    Even though you upset the town and pissed off a lot of people and got cursed a whole bunch, in my eyes, you are not a griefer, because your intentions were good.    I don't think the action itself or even the outcome of that action, define griefing.   Rather it is the purpose behind that action - the intentions of the griefer.

To continue the above example, imagine that after that life, you are born into a new village and you are very upset about how your last life went.   You don't think you did anything wrong and you are really mad at the people who killed you unjustly.   So when you get old enough, you find the knife and you kill all the sheep.    Now you are a griefer.    You have committed your first grief, because there was malice in your heart when you took that action.  You wanted to hurt other people.    You wanted to ruin their fun.     Your actions had a negative impact on the village in both lives, but in this life, you were doing it on purpose.   That's what makes your actions griefing and makes you a griefer, even though the outcome was the same from the perspective of the other townsfolk.

In the game, I do think it is really important to be aware that not all "griefing" is really intentional and malicious.   I think a good chunk of all the bad things that happen are accidents and misunderstandings due to our own limited perspective - we can only see so much.   We might not realize that someone else needs the materials that we used in our project.   We might not recognize that someone else is working really hard to fix a critical problem and get in their way.    We might not see the full story and jump to a conclusion when we see something suspicious or potentially threatening.   Education and clear communication can make a big difference.   When I see people doing things that don't make sense, I try to take the time to understand their actions before I condemn them.   Even clear-cut cases of griefing - like killing all the sheep - might have a decent explanation if you give the  guilty party an opportunity to explain.   And real griefers are rarely that subtle.   They make their intentions known through their continued misbehavior and malicious acts.   It is one of the reasons why I would advocate for leaving griefers alive back when it was easier to kill them.   Because by leaving them alive, you could confirm your suspicions by watching them continue to hurt the village and get more people on board to curse them as a group so they would be pushed further away from civilization.   A quick death would only push the problem onto another unsuspecting village AND ran the risk of killing an innocent person and possibly even creating  new griefer in the process. 

Anyways, that's just my perspective on the issue.  I realize that not everyone uses my definition of griefing.    But I really don't like to see the term being used for every negative interaction between players or anyone who doesn't play the game the way you like.  That is too broad and hard to define.  It makes it possible to be a griefer just by playing the game in good faith and I don't agree with that at all.

#23 Re: Main Forum » I Guess Even A Trading Station Doesn't Work? » 2020-11-25 09:04:50

The kiln and oven are really easy to relocate.   You can place them in a spot that makes sense for an Eve camp, then later on, when the camp has grown into a village, you can always move them to a more optimized location or build a second kitchen/forge and let people decide which one works better.     Any additional crafting stations that get added should also be moveable or destructible with some amount of effort.   Immovable objects are troublesome because it is easy for people to put them in the wrong place, accidentally or on purpose. 

Ideally, a crafting station should require some amount of effort to construct, but pay out over the long-run by making your life easier.   The adobe oven opens up all kinds of food options, as well as being highly useful for rubber production during the mid to late game.   The adobe kiln/forge is critically necessary for iron and clay processing, as well as charcoal generation.   I'd love to see other stations, like a woodworking bench, additional tailoring options, like thread or rope making, and whatever else Jason can imagine.   There are many options.

#24 Re: Main Forum » I Guess Even A Trading Station Doesn't Work? » 2020-11-25 05:22:09

Proper signage would make a world of difference.  It is so hard to get people to carry on your legacy if they have no clue what you were trying to achieve.   

Most of the time, the only way to get anything done is by doing everything yourself for several lifetimes, so that you have the time to build the necessary infrastructure AND so people how to use it by example or teaching.   But if you are trying to create a trading spot or a tailor shop or a carpentry station, it only maintains its identity until the resources are depleted.   After that, it is just a bunch of random boxes and tables.   Nobody will know what it is for or why it exists.

Unless you spend another lifetime building a sign, one letter at a time ...

More fixed location crafting stations would also be good.  The bakery and smithy exist because adobe ovens and kilns are part of the game.   If we had other fixed stations, that would help demonstrate the intended purpose of an area in the village AND give you a reason to transport resources to a specific place for further processing.

#25 Re: Main Forum » Your first grief? » 2020-11-24 15:43:56

Cantface wrote:

Griefing is part of the game remember? We all learned that the hard way.

I consider griefing in the same category as cyber-bullying.   It is harmful and toxic and it thrives by targeting the weak and vulnerable.  I do not see it as an acceptable behavior in any multi-player game.

Griefing hurts real people.  It is not something that should be accepted as a normal part of the game.  We should not welcome it into our community with open arms.   

No good will come from that.

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