Do most of new players give up because they can’t do anything?

DestinyCall · 2020-01-16 18:31:33

Just to clarify, the worst pies are berry pie, berry carrot, and berry/carrot/rabbit pies. Carrot pies and rabbit carrot pies are decent in terms of water usage, but should be produced sparingly to conserve carrots for non-culinary usages.

The problem has to do with the food value of the pie fillings. A berry pie requires a full bowl of berries. A full bowl of berries has six berries. Each berry provides 5 pips of food, so the whole bowl provides 30 pips. By comparison, a mutton pie is made by using a piece of raw mutton. Baking raw mutton turns it into cooked mutton which only provides 12 pips. Cooked rabbit is worth 10 pips. A raw carrot is only worth 7 pips. Now look at the value of the finished pies. A mutton pie provides 15 pips per bite while a berry pie provides 12 pips.

Take a moment to think about that. The filling that goes into the berry pie costs 30 pips and the end result is a pie that provides 12x4 pips (48 pips). In contrast, the filling in a mutton pie costs 12 pips and gives you a pie that provides 15x4 (60 pips). The berry pie is only give 18 extra pips, while the mutton pie is giving an impressive 48 pips as a production bonus. This means that you are getting the equivalent of an entire berry pie worth of bonus pips by using your wheat to bake a MUTTON pie instead of wasting a bowl of berries to make a BERRY pie. The math just gets even worse if you try adding more fillings, like berry/carrot, berry/rabbit, or the most wasteful pie possible - berry/carrot/rabbit.

I know that food math isn't that exciting, but if you care about providing the best food for your village, it is important to consider production costs and waste, whether you are cooking in a small camp or a big city. If you want to contribute to food diversity for yummers, there are much better food options available instead of baking berry pies. Turkey hunting, french fries/baked potato, and milk production, just to name a few.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-16 18:35:41)

Cantface · 2020-01-16 18:46:30

I'm sorry destiny but I failed maths HARD in school even after trying more than once with multiple teachers lol so most equations sound like gibberish to me, which might explain why I don't 'get' the true food value of everything and why I make 'bad' pie.

DestinyCall wrote:

*FOOD MATH*
Take a moment to think about that.

I appreciate the effort to try and explain it to me but numbers turn my brain to mush.

Last edited by Cantface (2020-01-16 18:51:23)

Dodge · 2020-01-16 18:48:21

just make mutton pies, rabbit pies or carrot pies if the times are really though.

Cantface · 2020-01-16 18:55:57

I know that you're just trying to say that the triple pie and the berry/carrot and berry pies have a bad value of cost overall compared to the others, that I can grasp lol. I only make all yum pie when we have everything we need and then some so no issue.

fug · 2020-01-16 18:56:26

Cantface wrote:

I'm sorry destiny but I failed maths HARD in school even after trying more than once with multiple teachers lol so most equations sound like gibberish to me, which might explain why I don't 'get' the true food value of everything and why I make 'bad' pie.
DestinyCall wrote:
*FOOD MATH*
Take a moment to think about that.
I appreciate the effort to try and explain it to me but numbers turn my brain to mush.

Easiest way to think of it: Someone who comes in the bakery and takes a whole pie isn't going to read what it is. If you make yummy pies and they get swiped to be eat plain its much less effective for the person eating just to eat. Mutton pie exceeds in this department because it's the go to pie for just eating the whole thing without thinking.

Berry (but not really) is good when multiple people are just taking bites of pie to chain yum but it's really bad when one person is taking multiple bites.

If you're baking for everyone you want to make mutton pies.

If you're baking for yourself or a small group you want specialty pies.

Dodge · 2020-01-16 19:04:57

Are the pumpkins good btw?

fug · 2020-01-16 19:05:45

Dodge wrote:

Are the pumpkins good btw?

Oh yeah pumpkin pie is good even with the egg cost. Problem is it's a racially locked food so if you don't have brown people you can't make pumpkin pie in the first place.

Cantface · 2020-01-16 19:08:30

I do venture into milk, butter, potats and the good stuff too but I fell into the trap I guess of making every single combination pie thinking a lot of players use it for yum and appreciate it. I genuinely thought most players yum to some degree especially hungry workers but I digress you're both probably right on the numbers and when I start playing again I'll keep this in mind so cheers!

DestinyCall · 2020-01-16 19:30:59

In my experience, really dedicated yummers are in a minority, even among experienced players. Yum is a fun mini-game, but it is also a bit of a noob trap and it tends to be a big time sink. When you are working hard to save a dying town, it is just plain faster to ignore yum-chaining in favor of efficient eating. Mutton pies are cheap, easy to mass produce, very portable, and should be available in any town to feed the hungry masses. Yum foods tend to be novelty/luxury food.

Despite my opposition to inefficient yumming, I have no problem with smart yummers. It is just important to recognize that if you are making food on the main server, you can expect it will be eaten by a lot of people who are not yumming. Plan accordingly and avoid making bad foods in large quantities. It can really waste a lot of resources quickly.

testo · 2020-01-16 20:27:03

Just have fun playing. Yumming is ok, diverstity pies are ok, mass mutton pies are ok, there are several things that hurt more a town. If you actually make the pies yourself you are adding effort to your place and you are entitled to choose how to make them. Trying to squeeze food pipes from everything is just the wrong approach to game imo.

Mekkie · 2020-01-16 20:34:05

Yea so many posts about my pie fiasco

Honestly.. it was my first game. I know the town was big because there were tons of people everywhere, so I didn't think I was being wasteful. I don't remember much except there were like... 3 beheaded geese on the left side of town just wobbling endlessly. It was comical.

Anyway I know mutton pies are the best and easiest use of resources, but I didn't think there was so much harm in making the others too xD

At the end of the day he could have just said "the yum chain isnt worth the resource cost" and my noob self would have said "ok sorry". The frustrating part was he just took the caveman approach of "VARIETY BAD. MUTTON GOOD!"
*CHEST THUMP*

But like I said I wasn't going to argue with him and let it be. Just got boring after that because pies and berries were literally the only thing I knew how to do, and I didn't want to do berries.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-16 23:42:07

fug wrote:

Dodge wrote:
Are the pumpkins good btw?
Oh yeah pumpkin pie is good even with the egg cost. Problem is it's a racially locked food so if you don't have brown people you can't make pumpkin pie in the first place.

But can you put a pumpkin pie in a backpack?

Mekkie wrote:

At the end of the day he could have just said "the yum chain isnt worth the resource cost" and my noob self would have said "ok sorry". The frustrating part was he just took the caveman approach of "VARIETY BAD. MUTTON GOOD!"
*CHEST THUMP*
But like I said I wasn't going to argue with him and let it be. Just got boring after that because pies and berries were literally the only thing I knew how to do, and I didn't want to do berries.

I really hate the text limitations sometimes, because I think at 50% of the time when you encounter a super rude person in-game, they actually a decent person who has reverted to caveman talk because longer speech is too hard in OHOL. I often worry that someone will think I am being mean when I tell them to stop doing something wrong, because it is so hard to explain stuff clearly and politely . It doesn't help that I'm a slow typer AND my natural tendency is long wordyexplanations. So "please do not plant additional gooseberries at this time as our water supply is currently limited and we do not have the tools to upgrade our well yet. Could you plant more wheat and carrots instead, since we are running low on compost supplies?" gets shortened down to "Stop. No more. Berry. Need wheat. And carrot more." or even just "STOP STOP STOP! BERRY BAD. WHEAT GOOD."
Then I run away to gather iron and completely fail to explain myself properly. >.<

Last edited by DestinyCall (2020-01-17 01:14:51)

fug · 2020-01-16 23:44:23

DestinyCall wrote:

fug wrote:
Dodge wrote:
Are the pumpkins good btw?
Oh yeah pumpkin pie is good even with the egg cost. Problem is it's a racially locked food so if you don't have brown people you can't make pumpkin pie in the first place.

But can you put a pumpkin pie in a backpack?

No, but you can leave it out for those hardworkers to munch on. Taking a pumpkin pie to the sheep pen while you butcher sheep is really nice as you can get a bunch of work done quickly.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 06:24:47

Cantface wrote:

I'm sorry destiny but I failed maths HARD in school even after trying more than once with multiple teachers lol so most equations sound like gibberish to me, which might explain why I don't 'get' the true food value of everything and why I make 'bad' pie.
DestinyCall wrote:
*FOOD MATH*
Take a moment to think about that.
I appreciate the effort to try and explain it to me but numbers turn my brain to mush.

Yeah, I could literally talk for hours about OHOL food math, but I realize that not everyone is my special brand of crazy. I don't even like math that much, but I'm really into food. I usually simplify the message down to "meat pies = good. berry pies = bad" and cross my fingers, hoping that people are willing to trust that I know what I'm talking about. If they don't believe me, I have charts. (✿◠‿◠)

fug wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
fug wrote:
Oh yeah pumpkin pie is good even with the egg cost. Problem is it's a racially locked food so if you don't have brown people you can't make pumpkin pie in the first place.

But can you put a pumpkin pie in a backpack?
No, but you can leave it out for those hardworkers to munch on. Taking a pumpkin pie to the sheep pen while you butcher sheep is really nice as you can get a bunch of work done quickly.

Yeah, pumpkin pie might be a "pie", but it doesn't really fit into the same category as the other pies. I'd actually consider it to be more similar to Three Sisters Stew, in a strange way. Or maybe turkey? It's not great for travelers and requires a large amount of prep work, but it is a decent village food. The main ingredients are pumpkin, sugar, and goose egg. The water cost isn't too bad - two bowls of water spread across four pies, if you use a wild-gathered goose egg. And each pie provides eight slices, so that's a lot of bites. Processing sugar is pretty time-consuming AND race-locked, but making the pumpkin custard is relatively straight-forward. It's also worth considering that pumpkin pie is the only culinary use for pumpkins, so if someone produces a lot of pumpkin in your village, you might as well turn them into pies instead of jack o'lanterns. Unless you really love Halloween. Pumpkin pie is also the only "pie" that requires a knife AND a crockpot to produce, so don't try to make pumpkin pie in an early camp before the baker has a knife.

testo wrote:

Just have fun playing. Yumming is ok, diverstity pies are ok, mass mutton pies are ok, there are several things that hurt more a town. If you actually make the pies yourself you are adding effort to your place and you are entitled to choose how to make them. Trying to squeeze food pipes from everything is just the wrong approach to game imo.

Almost everything in OHOL revolves around hunger. Starvation is the number one cause of death. We wear clothing so we don't get hungry as quickly. We gather iron to make tools so we can produce even more food and water and clothing. We care about water not because we get thirsty, but because we need water to produce food. Without food, we all die.

I've spent a lot of time thinking about food efficiency and the "best" ways to produce and consume foods because it is very important to village survival. If my village is hunger, I want to know what I can do to help the town. There's a very wide range of options in this game when it comes to food production. All of them produce some amount of food in exchange for some amount of resources - time, water, iron, etc. yet the costs vary considerably from food to food. The question is ... if I only have one hour to make food for my village, where is my time best spent? I could spend that hour making a bowl of ice cream or I could spend that hour baking mutton pies. The bowl of ice cream is a fun yum food and it is a cool treat for a village that already has a lot of good food. But the mutton pies are a much more practical choice if my village is in desperate need of real food to prevent starvation.

Most villages have a bunch of mutton pie and three sisters stew. It's not because people don't know how to make better foods. It is because these ARE the better foods. I have nothing against players making foods they enjoy making or exploring some of the rare foods that they haven't made before. Heck .. I've built actual yum shrines to celebrate the diversity of food options available in OHOL. I just want to make sure that people are aware of the reasons why certain foods are so rarely produced and also highlight some foods that are under-appreciated. Whole milk is one of the most efficient foods in the game. French fries are surprisingly good (if you have access to palm oil). Turkey is a culinary power-house. Omelettes are essentially free food.

As much as I talk about food efficiency, I don't expect everyone to act like robots and only do the most efficient action at all times. I just want to inform people about the foods they eat and the foods they produce so they can hopefully make better, more informed choices about where they want to spend their time and energy. Efficiency saves time and water and work. It gives people more freedom to do stuff other than JUST making food all the time. Fun stuff. Silly stuff. Interesting stuff. The stuff that makes OHOL more than just a game about not starving to death.

testo · 2020-01-17 13:50:58

Allow me to pull out a Spoonwood and a JasonY at the same time since they can´t post.

testo believes wrote:

Almost everything in OHOL revolves around ~~hunger~~ having fun. It´s a game afterall. ~~Starvation~~ SID is by far the number one cause of death, unfortunately we can´t mesure if people starve because of unattentiveness, lack of food, because they went afk or because they actually suicided. We wear clothing so we don't get hungry as quickly. We gather iron to make tools so we can produce even more food and water and clothing. We care about water not because we get thirsty, but because we need water to ~~produce food~~ do stuff we find fun. Without fun, we all leave the game.

I've too spent a lot of time thinking about food efficiency and fun. If my village is in hunger, I do know what I can do to help the town: I make food. There's a very wide range of options in this game when it comes to food production. All of them produce some amount of food in exchange for some amount of resources - time, water, iron, etc. yet the costs vary considerably from food to food, but that is unimportant if there is hunger, because if people if dying because of lack of food I just make the fastest food possible (usually carrots or pies). The question is ... if I only have one hour to have fun, what will make me happier in game? I could spend that hour making a bowl of ice cream or I could spend that hour baking mutton pies. The bowl of ice cream not really that fun, thats why it is one of the least crafted foods. But the mutton pies are a much more fun choice in the long run and brings the feeling of fullfillment of helping others.

Most villages have a bunch of mutton pie and three sisters stew. It is funny how milk, wild eggs and wild berries are the better foods by such a far far margin, even carnitas is better than stew and mutton pie. I have nothing against players making ridiculous pies and stew while they enjoy making or exploring some of the rare foods that they have made before over and over under the argument of maximizing something the wrong way. Heck, I´ve never build a shrine though. I just want to make sure that people are aware of the reasons why certain foods are so rarely produced and also highlight some foods that are under-appreciated: it is all becuase of the fun of doing stuff easy for everyone, mutton pie is used because it fits in a backpack easily. If it was for the optimal amount of pipes you would take even carnitas over it. Whole milk is the most efficient food in the game. French fries are ok. Wild berries, Turkey, Omelettes and wild carnitas are 100% free food, and two of them are renewable.

As much as I talk about food efficiency, I really don´t expect anyone to do the most efficient action at all times. Because that would mean we would just spend our hour in the game gathering and recollecting wild berries and eggs. Seriously, even under a finite world situation. I just want to inform people about letting other people do foods as they please so they can hopefully make better, more informed choices about where they want to spend their time and energy to have FUN. Efficiency is a chimera about water and work. It gives people more freedom to use the same water you pretend to save while arguing that starvation is the number one cause of death. Let me put it this way: 1 paper= 1 bowl of water, 1 plastered wall=1 bowl of water, 1 planted tree= 2 bowls of water. 1 newcomen use= 10 bowls of water= 40 dried corn= 40 buckets of milk.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 16:07:19

My eyes are bleeding. ಥ_ಥ

testo · 2020-01-17 19:19:06

DestinyCall wrote:

My eyes are bleeding. ಥ_ಥ

I did my best

DestinyCall · 2020-01-17 19:26:09

testo wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
My eyes are bleeding. ಥ_ಥ
I did my best

Some things are not meant to be combined. Like orange juice and toothpaste.

Cantface · 2020-01-17 23:35:28

DestinyCall wrote:

Some things are not meant to be combined. Like orange juice and toothpaste.

Orange juice and cranberry juice on the other hand mix that shit right up. Add coconut rum and some lemonade or tonic water for the best cocktail ever!
◝‹•▿•›◜ʸᵘᵐᵎ

testo · 2020-01-17 23:53:27

Cantface wrote:

DestinyCall wrote:
Some things are not meant to be combined. Like orange juice and toothpaste.
Orange juice and cranberry juice on the other hand mix that shit right up. Add coconut rum and some lemonade or tonic water for the best cocktail ever!
◝‹•▿•›◜ʸᵘᵐᵎ

hey that sounds like fun

Cantface · 2020-01-18 00:01:32

testo wrote:

hey that sounds like fun

Heck yeah! Just don't have too many even though they go down smooth the alcohol taste is dangerously minimal lol.

Legs · 2020-01-18 04:05:23

A minority of affordable yum food is essential imo. It's what separates a proper chef from some noob baker that only churns out mutton pie. If I can go to the slot box and right click to find a yum pie it's a chef's product. When nothing but mutton pie is available I'll take it but let's be frank, it's a waste. Talking about food math, when every new food adds ten bonus pips you're wasting food by NOT making it. First food is a berry, then a berry bowl, maybe some popcorn, then fresh corn. I might eat a carrot once in my life and that's with five bonus pips. Another five easy yums from wild food like wild carrot and wild onion, burdock, maybe a banana or cactus fruit. Stew and turkey and turkey broth. Bread. Milk! Butter! Buttered bread!! Forget that mutton pie just cook the meat itself. There's so much easy variety with yum in any basic town. Unless it's a primitive camp that's struggling not to starve there's no excuse not to make yummy food. You can eat rare low-pip foods endgame like a mushroom and get twenty-five pips just because hey you're on a x15 combo. Any decent player in a town with berry, carrot, wheat and sheep should have no problem hitting this number. Especially if the farm's expanding to stuff like three sisters, tomato, onion etc.

The only excuse I can really see is doing a lot of hungry work. When you need a bite for every felled tree the only effective way to be a lumberjack is with a pack full of mutton pies.

StrongForce · 2020-01-18 17:44:45

Yum is a nice side quest but it's not usefull at all since the overflow stomach was added

fug · 2020-01-18 21:44:00

StrongForce wrote:

Yum is a nice side quest but it's not usefull at all since the overflow stomach was added

Well yum is important if your goal is to raise your gene score (or potentially really harm it.) When the weakest family is getting children directed to them its weighted more towards the highest yum/warmest moms in the village more over rather than nonyumming cold moms. So if you want to raise your chances of getting more babies you want to be yumming and keeping warm though I'm not sure how much more useful this is in practice vs normal play.

DestinyCall · 2020-01-18 23:49:53

Interestingly, that suggests that optimal genetic score strategy would be to ensure that you are the only fertile yummer in your village.

Rather than encouraging more people to yum and providing a wide variety of foods for anyone to eat, you might want to make your own private area behind a property fence for yum production. Only provide access to your genetic beneficiaries. Then make just one omelette, one bowl of carnitas, one cooked goose, one cooked rabbit (and so on) for your own personal use, instead of mass-producing and sharing the yum with random villages that don't matter to your score.

Teaching your kids to be yum-hoarders would obviously also be a good idea. You can never have enough tool slots.

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