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a multiplayer game of parenting and civilization building

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#26 2019-12-15 13:22:21

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

schmloo wrote:
Dodge wrote:
schmloo wrote:

I don’t know if you’ve ever taught people before, but if you have you can’t tell me it’s not a genuine emotional response when they appreciate you for it and they go on to be more useful than most of the other people who know how to play but can’t be fucked. That’s investing time into what they could be doing and it pays off.

Yes teaching is great but you forget a main point it relies on a constant flux of new players also it's sort of a meta thing since you're teaching the actual player and not the charachter he's playing in the game but wathever.

If you cant answer the riddle that's fine but pls stop arguing the logical aspect of it thanks.

You are a griefer

You just got born

Your intent is to grief, unless

Unless...what?

Plenty of food around you? Check

No other threat for your survival? Check

I’ve played along with your riddle, and now you’re just taking the piss. Goodbye.

Already? ok bye

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#27 2019-12-15 13:56:02

JasonY
Member
Registered: 2019-11-15
Posts: 209

Re: You are a griefer

Because assuming you are solo, killing everybody in the city isn't plausible. In this scenario, you did say that some people are actually working, which means that competent players are around and they will likely stop you after the first kill. It is a big city, theirs also a good chance of town medics so any would-be victim can always be saved.



Secondly, You don't actually need to kill anybody. Thieving can cause deterioration over time, Simply acquire a horse and continue loading up on vital resources. Bowls, Plates, Buckets, Oil, Tools etc. The competent players may notice but as long as you stay one step ahead of them they will struggle. Steal the hammer and bellows and they are delayed in replacing any stolen tools. Work to cripple the town, good players waste time replacing stuff and the bad players continue to suck the town dry even when it's missing key resources.


Need Content

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#28 2019-12-15 14:16:22

karltown_veteran
Member
Registered: 2018-04-15
Posts: 828

Re: You are a griefer

Because it gives bad karma and it makes me feel bad.
The hard workers in the town have dedicated 30 or so minutes to a town they want to uphold.
And you have decided you want to be the idiot that ends that all in about a minute? For what? They're real life people behind the screens. Why ruin their days?
Also because buying baby bones sounds a lot more fun smile


.-.. .. ..-. . / .. ... / ... - .-. .- -. --. . .-.-.- / ... --- / .- -- / .. .-.-.-
ˆ ø˜ç´ ƒ®åµ´∂ å˜ ˆ˜˜øç∑˜† å˜∂ ©ø† å∑å¥ ∑ˆ†˙ ˆ†
he xnt bzm qdzc sghr, xnt zqd z enqlhczakd noonmdms
veteran of an OHOL town called Karltown. Not really a veteran and my names not Karl

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#29 2019-12-15 14:54:39

DarkDrak
Member
Registered: 2019-06-05
Posts: 122

Re: You are a griefer

'Cause, as you were luring three bears in the town, a woman with a bow and three arrows in bp comes to you and says "First strike, mf. Next one and you're out" Then goes back to town and alerts everyone about you.

'Cause you already piled up enough curses on your acc that it's a miracle you were born outside of donkey town.

'Cause the first person you shot got healed by a competent medic and now you have a 200% movement speed guy running after you.


If you want to cause greif to others in this game, there's never ANYTHING that can stop you from starting it. But there are several things that can end your crusade prematurely.
Either way, there are several smart ways for a single man to annihillate a town. And they're pretty hard to notice too. If you're a smartass and want to destroy a town, the town's pretty much doomed.


Youtube guide to Oil and Kerosene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKSZHPiUK6A
Youtube guide to Diesel Engine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sMX_GlwgbA&t=5s

World is not black and white

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#30 2019-12-15 15:15:08

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol

anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.

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#31 2019-12-15 15:50:46

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol.

Now you are just being a jerk.


I've gotta ask, is the point of this thread to find a reason that resonates with you personally?   Are you the griefer, Dodge?

You might consider taking a break form OHOL, if the joy of simple village life is dead to you.   It is a mistake to look to others for a reason  not to griefer.   The motivation to play with other people comes from within.

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#32 2019-12-15 16:00:00

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol

anyway still arguing weither it's possible or not doesn't matter, it's about intent.

Typing something like /compost or going to the smith and saying "NEED HOE" isn't as easy as clicking buttons.  And I imagine it's more difficult when English isn't your native language.

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#33 2019-12-15 16:09:11

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:
Dodge wrote:

mouse clicking is such "hard work" poor poor players behind their screen that "worked" so hard... lol.

Now you are just being a jerk.


I've gotta ask, is the point of this thread to find a reason that resonates with you personally?   Are you the griefer, Dodge?

You might consider taking a break form OHOL, if the joy of simple village life is dead to you.   It is a mistake to look to others for a reason  not to griefer.   The motivation to play with other people comes from within.

No the motivation of this post is to have a "griefers" perspective and to use that perspective to understand the flaws of the game.

Since RP is such a big thing try to put yourself in the shoes of a "griefer".

You are born

Plenty of food around

No struggle for survival

Most interactions feels unneeded in terms of actually playing the game (the main goal of the game is to not die aka survive, it's a survival game after all)

Giving token pies and engaging in roleplay conversations dont increases chances of survival so let's be clear it's purely roleplay

AND i'm not saying there is anything wrong with that if you are into roleplay that's perfectly fine but it doesn't increases your survival or the survival of the civilisation.

So given these points try to understand why killing without actual in game purpose aka "griefing" is such a rampant and recuring issue and find solutions to the underlying problem.

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#34 2019-12-15 16:56:41

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge wrote:

So given these points try to understand why killing without actual in game purpose aka "griefing" is such a rampant and recurring issue and find solutions to the underlying problem.


I've given a decent amount of consideration to the griefer problem.   I've talked with self-identified griefers of various flavors and players who deny being griefers but sometimes start to kill or torment other players at random when they are bored, frustrated, or upset.     I think the problem is complex because not all griefers are motivated by the same reasons, in-game or in reality.    A solution that might work to "cure" one person's tendency to grief will have little or no effect on a different person's griefing.   

For example, your scenario assumes that the griefer is motivated to grief because there is no survival challenge in his village.   This is cited by some players as a trigger for griefing.   They are bored or don't like the village they were born into ... so they decide to live life as a griefer instead of playing normally.   But this is not the only reason to grief.    If it was, we would never see players griefing Eve camps or killing other people in primitive villages on the brink of disaster.   In those villages, there is a strong need for players to work together to keep the village alive and accomplishing that goal would be a significant challenge.   Yet some players look at a fragile village and all they see is an easy target for griefing.   

If a healthy village encourages griefing and a damaged village encourages griefing ... is the state of the village really the source of the problem?    Or is it just an excuse?

Personally, I think that most griefers choose to grief (and most normal players choose to NOT grief) not because of any particular external conditions in the game, but rather due to internal factors.   These internal factors motivate them to act in coordination with the group or against it.    An average OHOL villager finds satisfaction and reward from helping his village and family to thrive.  But some players don't feel that connection to the village or the other players in the game.   For whatever reason, they are unable to see their fellow villagers as real people with real emotions in the real world.   Rather than playing the game as it is intended and cooperating to survive, they find fun and challenge in making their own game within a game, following their own set of rules, so they can always "win", even if it hurts the enjoyment of other players. 

If your goal is to kill as many people as you can before you die, you can't lose, even if you die immediately.  You are the winner by default, because you choose the rules and don't inform the other players that they are now a part of your twisted game.    There's no challenge.  There's no skill requirement.   At its core, griefing is a form of cheating, and in my experience, cheaters don't actually care about a lack of challenge.  They just want the thrill of victory and the false sense of superiority that comes from winning at all costs.   

So looking at this problem from the perspective of "what challenge can I offer the griefers so they will stop griefing" is unlikely to solve anything.   Adding more challenges into the game won't satisfy the griefers, because most of them aren't bored or angry or unhappy because the game doesn't challenge them enough.   They were bored or angry or unhappy before they logged into the game and they will probably feel that way again after they log out.   Even if you manage to catch their interest for a while, it's only a matter of time before they get bored again or someone says something that upsets them or they have a bad day at work and need to take out their frustrating in a safe environment where they feel more powerful than those around them.

Ultimately, the best protection against griefing is identifying the players who routinely grief, life after life.  Serial griefers are not responsible for ALL griefing in the game, but they are responsible for a LOT of grief and they are frequently responsible for the most extreme examples.   Once the worst offenders are identified, you can decide what to do with them.   Personally, I suggest PERMANENT exile to a dedicated "Donkey Town" server.   They can still play the game, but they are no longer allowed to join the main server with all the new players and people who enjoy playing the game cooperatively.    Gather enough of them together and they can grief each other as much as they like.    Or maybe they will try to play the game normally, but with fewer players exposed to their inevitable meltdowns.  It's up to them.     Best of all, players who do not enjoy dealing with the constant griefing can go back to cooperatively farming in peace.

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#35 2019-12-15 16:58:39

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge,

The website says the following:

jasonrohrer wrote:

a multiplayer survival game of parenting
and civilization building

 

Though it's a survival game, it's a multiplayer survival game, meaning that multiple players need to survive.

The griefer's perspective that you describe is such that multiple players need not survive.  So, the problem is that they don't think that the game should get played inline with the multiplayer survival aspect to it.  Or that the game should get played inline with fewer inidividuals surviving in it.

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#36 2019-12-15 17:20:04

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

DestinyCall wrote:

So looking at this problem from the perspective of "what challenge can I offer the griefers so they will stop griefing" is unlikely to solve anything.   Adding more challenges into the game won't satisfy the griefers, because most of them aren't bored or angry or unhappy because the game doesn't challenge them enough.   They were bored or angry or unhappy before they logged into the game and they will probably feel that way again after they log out.   Even if you manage to catch their interest for a while, it's only a matter of time before they get bored again or someone says something that upsets them or they have a bad day at work and need to take out their frustrating in a safe environment where they feel more powerful than those around them.

Yes but right now the game doesn't enable these types of interactive behavior, so let's say a griefer starts a life with the intention to grief for wathever reason (bored, unhappy, angry etc). The game doesn't incentivize him to do otherwise so that's what he does.

The game could be that opportunity for the griefer to reconsider the life he's about to live "i was about to grief but for some reason the game brought me out of it and now colaborating and interacting with others seems much more interesting than chasing them down with a knife/bow".

Me personally if i'm bored,unhappy, angry or wathever i simply dont play the game, plenty of other stuff to do, because mindlessly farming, smithing,baking or listening to RP sories doesn't entertain me but that's the point, shouldn't it? i'm not talking about mindlessly farming or RP stories but actually playing the game, shouldn't it be enteraining?

Shouldn't it make you think, reconsider what you where about to do, change you perspective?

Right now the game is like stardew vallley, a cute relaxing/chill game.

And that's perfectly fine stardew valley is a very popular game.

I just dont think that's what OHOL aims to be.

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#37 2019-12-15 17:31:30

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

Yeah, I'm afraid I don't know the answer.   I'm strongly in the "Stardew Valley" camp.

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#38 2019-12-15 18:52:09

Bowser
Member
Registered: 2019-11-30
Posts: 55

Re: You are a griefer

Because I'm not spiteful, and I don't take pleasure in watching other people suffer and fail?

If you're asking why a griefer would not want to take the risk, there is no answer except that they don't want to be cursed.  A smart griefer can do a lot more damage than stabbing someone, watching them get healed, and getting cursed by the entire town while they bleed out from getting stabbed by literally everyone in town.  But I am not about to advise on that.

Last edited by Bowser (2019-12-15 18:52:47)

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#39 2019-12-15 19:14:43

DestinyCall
Member
Registered: 2018-12-08
Posts: 4,108

Re: You are a griefer

I feel like the problem is if you decide to grief, you are already making the choice to play for yourself, not for the town.   I don't think there's anything the town can provide that would reliably buy your loyalty.   

It's like asking how to structure your forums in such a way that internet trolls will not start stupid flame wars all the time.   Trolls gotta troll.   It is why they are called trolls.  You don't change your forums to cater to the trolls.  You moderate your forums to make them inhospitable to trolling.

Here's a fun infographic that describes contributing factors behind troll psychology:

https://mashable.com/2013/02/10/internet-trolls/

Many of the same factors are likely responsible for griefing in OHOL.

Last edited by DestinyCall (2019-12-15 19:19:54)

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#40 2019-12-15 19:39:30

arkajalka
Member
From: Eesti
Registered: 2018-03-23
Posts: 437

Re: You are a griefer

I'd turn the question around.

Why would you kill all the people?

Please answer i want a insight into call of duty kid thoguht process.


I am Sheep, the lord of kraut, maker of the roads, professional constructor, master smith, bonsai enthusiast, arctic fisher, dog whisperer, naked  nomad and an ORGANIZER. Nerf sharp stone it's op.

"BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" -Jaleiah Gilberts
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#41 2019-12-15 19:49:28

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

arkajalka wrote:

I'd turn the question around.

Why would you kill all the people?

Well, we only need to ignore the 'by' in the title here to get:

"You are a griefer Dodge."

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#42 2019-12-15 20:00:25

Lava
Member
Registered: 2019-07-20
Posts: 338

Re: You are a griefer

Spoonwood wrote:
arkajalka wrote:

I'd turn the question around.

Why would you kill all the people?

Well, we only need to ignore the 'by' in the title here to get:

"You are a griefer Dodge."



+100

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#43 2019-12-15 20:31:53

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

Yeah no if you did read my post above i crearly specified that when i'm bored i simply dont play the game, nice accusation though i guess it comes from the frustration of not finding any answer to the original question smile

Oh and if you are going to try to expose me with some discord conversations i dont count the occasionnal and extremly rare killing for "informationnal purposes" as griefing, i do those in the purpose of understanding better, either what could improve the game or just how players react and why the current game makes them react this way.

It gets boring pretty fast anyway...

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#44 2019-12-15 20:52:14

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge,

You seemed rather defensive in your response.

Arkajalka basically threw your own question back at you.

All of us here read 'you are a griefer', and I've thrown that back at you.

It's also interesting that you're so interested in how other players react from your killing.  Because griefers also are interested in how other players to their killing.

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#45 2019-12-15 21:06:29

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

Do i seem defensive? maybe it's because you are attacking me, have you thought about that?

Anyway i'm not going to repeat 100 times just read my post above.

Regarding the argument of "griefers are also interested in how others react therefore you are a griefer", griefers do it for entertainment, i do it on very rare occasions for informationnal purposes, i'm being transparent about it, everything else that you still dont understand regarding purposes or reasons is beyond my scop, just ask your therapist a friend/close person maybe he will be more inclined to answer you since he knows you better.

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#46 2019-12-15 21:36:25

jcwilk
Member
Registered: 2017-12-20
Posts: 336

Re: You are a griefer

Probably gonna make some enemies by saying this but I don't think it's difficult to understand griefing... Cooperative play is enriching in its own way, but when one mind faces off against another in a zero-sum kind of way things become much more exciting. When one person (or many people) dial up their agency and aim it on bringing you down while you dial up your own agency towards both keeping yourself breathing and also towards further agitation and recruitment into the "village vs griefer" metagame then it has a rich flavor that's difficult to find in other games, especially at such a balance between fast pace and sometimes deep village and social complexity.

When I do it it's for that reason... How are they going to resist? How will I subvert that resistance? How will they resist that subversion? What's the method that's the least destructive to the village and using the smallest number of tools (as in, mechanisms not as in tool slots) to deny the survival instincts of other human (ie, contrasted against environmental or npc adversaries) players?

I don't really get griefer types who break random things in the village though and hide tools when no one's looking, or opening fire on zoning out noobs... I tried that briefly but it's not satisfying at all because the property mechanisms are mostly worthless and no one uses them. If there were better property mechanics and theft actually encountered resistance or the bow wasn't a goddamn sniper rifle then it could be very stimulating, but currently it does not and is not so I imagine those players are new or just too lazy to be more creative with it maybe... There's no mind vs mind happening there it's just mind vs absence of mind.

But yeah it shouldn't be quite so easy to kill people, I'm really not a fan of the one hit kill dynamic at all but it's what Jason went with... Hopefully someone can talk him out of it eventually to add more depth and skill to combat rather than it just being about who's zerging harder or ganking harder. There is some interesting dynamic deep in there but IMO with more complexities closer to the surface it would be more compelling for both the offenders and the defenders.

And re: "this game isn't about that" - you're kidding yourself if you think that combat is the only solution Jason could think of vs griefers. Play the castle doctrine and tell me Jason doesn't like blood. If he wants to outlaw griefing and start banning people who aren't strictly roleplaying neurotypical family members that would be well within his power, but he doesn't, and he never will, because that approach to player management is boring af.

I very much enjoy the non-griefing aspects of the game, but sometimes, particularly until a meaningful trading dynamic emerges, a gameplay style with a little more simulation can be a breath of fresh air.

Last edited by jcwilk (2019-12-15 21:37:37)

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#47 2019-12-15 21:46:06

DiscardedSlinky
DubiousSlinker
From: Discord
Registered: 2019-05-06
Posts: 600

Re: You are a griefer

Dodge why are you so mad? You need to chill the fuck out. You're taking all of this wayyy to seriously. Just move on already. You're just creating toxic environments.


I'm Slinky. I /blush. I also don't read essays.

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#48 2019-12-15 21:49:14

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,773

Re: You are a griefer

Yes, your behavior seemed defensive.

I don't think I'm attacking you.  I think I'm typing on my keyboard.

I don't think I made that argument.

Also, it's possible to do things for both informational purposes and for entertainment.

And I don't think that you make the game better by engaging in "occasional and extremely" rare killing.  Really, if you were doing such for informational purposes and being throughgoing, you would need to do so to a player without their consent and by surprise, since that's what griefers do.  It's no fun to have a red blotch on my computer screen that looks like vomitted spaghetti sauce, hear the annoying murder sounds, and move around slow as a snail.  I also don't see what the hell such killing for "informational purposes" has to do with multiplayer survival, since such a kill results in not as many people surviving, if not also it's another family member dying prematurely.  It also has jack squat to do with civilization building and nothing at all to do with parenting. 

Before when I said "you are a griefer Dodge" it was a joke, and the joke relied on a deliberate reduction of how the post works.  After all, I said that we had to ignore "by".  But, now that I've thought more thoroughly about things, I don't see at all how you are playing in the spirit of the game when your character kills another character for your "informational purposes".  And, of course, you didn't even have the courtesy to leave that other person alone, who, for all we know may well have been playing in the spirit of the game.  So Dodge, now that I've thought about, I'm serious.

You are a griefer... in those situations at the very least.

CURSE EVE DODGE

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#49 2019-12-15 22:00:06

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

DiscardedSlinky wrote:

Dodge why are you so mad? You need to chill the fuck out. You're taking all of this wayyy to seriously. Just move on already. You're just creating toxic environments.

And you need to learn to turn toxicity into something more creative than "why u mad lololol", avoidance doesn't solve any issues.

Also serious is a very relative term here, if you really think i'm being actually serious then you are way off, still no answer on the original question btw.

Anyway on a more serious note instead of simply contradicting me i hope you can see the point i'm trying to make in the original post.

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#50 2019-12-15 22:03:22

Dodge
Member
Registered: 2018-08-27
Posts: 2,324

Re: You are a griefer

jcwilk wrote:

...

Tbf the "PVP" system had a lot of improvements and its much less easy to kill now than before, still not enough though since sometimes when i target some people will just stand there until they get stabbed/shot.

The "GASP" + shock face still feels a little underwhelming imo, you are supposed to fear for your life after all and not be like "oh i'm shocked someone is trying to murder me".

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