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#76 2019-06-04 17:15:34

mrbah
Member
Registered: 2019-01-15
Posts: 156

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

How would you like us to report problems? just make a thread on the forums? File a bugreport? In a collectivized thread?

I will add something I experienced last night:

Information that is rarely required is forgotten.
We were walled in with property fences in a town that had three exits. we were distracted with a griefer and didn't spot it in time, but ultimately, the griefer only established shaky property fences. I have never knocked one of these down and apparently neither did the rest of the city. we tried to break out via a different method, when all we needed was an axe or hatchet.
So a whole lot of players evidently didnt know how to knock down shaky property fences.

Last edited by mrbah (2019-06-04 17:28:12)

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#77 2019-06-04 17:20:51

Jk Howling
Member
From: Washington State
Registered: 2018-06-16
Posts: 468

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

jasonrohrer wrote:

Players are bad at understanding the sources of those problems, and thus, players are very bad at solving those problems themselves.  This is a general observation, and not true in all cases.

Such as... the stupid grain solution you came up with?

We pinpointed the problem months ago. Compost is overpowered. Grain and mutton are automatically byproducts of it. Compost is constantly made and constantly needed in the game, so grain and mutton both build up over time. It's free food, but it takes up space. Luckily we only need to kill sheep when our pen is full or we need mutton.

Not the case for grain. We can't choose to thresh wheat only when we need wheat. We're forced to get piles of it because compost requires it, as did baskets [which were less commonly made over time than compost]

We offered plenty of viable solutions. The easiest? Grain storage. The coding is literally already in the game with buckets. Hell you could even just make grain dumpable in buckets. Case closed, no more grain clutter.

Instead you offer some stupid bullshit solution utilizing one of the most required and sought after resources in the game [milkweed] to make baskets with 1 less wheat. Because yes, that TOTALLY solves our grain problem. Wasting 4 milkweed for 2 baskets instead of making a box/bucket and a single basket for the same amount of milkweed/grain clutter is TOTALLY worth it. Definitely.


-Has ascended to better games-

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#78 2019-06-04 17:43:34

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

I thought the change to baskets was about addressing how baskets decay, but at the last min that was changed (now baskets don't decay thank god!) so it kind of became dead content. Baskets add to grain clutter but the fact that they decay is a bigger storage issue.

So, baskets don't decay and we get the slot box which works well for storing pies and so far not much else, (I think a few people don't like the slot boxes even for pies, but I see people using them AND it's reversible now with a long shaft so I think it's good) those are both improvements.

We also got containable bowls of more kinds which has been a big help.

I didn't think those changes were a real "S T O R A G E U P D A T E" more like some things to just make things a bit easier.

I too would like to see grain storage. And other types of mass storage. I feel like there isn't enough space in towns and have taken to dumping "junk" outside of towns. When I do this people seem to stop standing around and start making things again.

KszY5v2.jpg

But this job isn't the most satisfying I'd rather be able to put everything *away*

a place for everything and everything in its place

Last edited by futurebird (2019-06-04 17:44:52)


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#79 2019-06-04 18:05:04

Tarr
Member
Registered: 2018-03-31
Posts: 1,546

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

futurebird wrote:

I thought the change to baskets was about addressing how baskets decay, but at the last min that was changed (now baskets don't decay thank god!) so it kind of became dead content. Baskets add to grain clutter but the fact that they decay is a bigger storage issue.

So, baskets don't decay and we get the slot box which works well for storing pies and so far not much else, (I think a few people don't like the slot boxes even for pies, but I see people using them AND it's reversible now with a long shaft so I think it's good) those are both improvements.

We also got containable bowls of more kinds which has been a big help.

I didn't think those changes were a real "S T O R A G E U P D A T E" more like some things to just make things a bit easier.

I too would like to see grain storage. And other types of mass storage. I feel like there isn't enough space in towns and have taken to dumping "junk" outside of towns. When I do this people seem to stop standing around and start making things again.

https://i.imgur.com/KszY5v2.jpg

But this job isn't the most satisfying I'd rather be able to put everything *away*

a place for everything and everything in its place

So from that picture we see:
-Tomatoes
-Peppers
-Tomato cluster
-Eggs
-Clay
-Niter
-Paper
-Stakes
-Letters
-Arrows + Arrowhead
-Worms
-Fishing pole
-Seeds
-Flint chip
-Paper

The organics (besides worms) so peppers, tomatoes, eggs, and seeds should all just decay. The stakes can be converted to kindling so that's an easy fix. Niter should be dumped somewhere but not in the trash pit, paper should be dumped like that, worms probably shouldn't go there with the fishing pole but I dump them too. Arrowheads probably can go in a trash pit, and flint chips stack.

So basically all the stuff related to tomatoes/peppers/onions should just decay since they just make a big mess, eggs can decay too or be made into omeletes, clay makes a mess but is also required to make plates, stakes can be handled easy enough, worms + fishing equipment isn't very valuable but I don't think it should decay. Letters can probably just be tossed wherever, paper goes wherever as well, and the arrow stuff might be useful somewhere else stored in town.

So s*ggestion: make problematic things decay.

Or in the Jason format:

Problem: Stuff that isn't meta for food staples sit around and take up valuable space.


Days peppers/onions/tomatoes left unfixed: 103

Do your part and remind Jason to fix these damn vegetables.

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#80 2019-06-04 18:23:22

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

I'm Ok with most of the decay... but can we please also get some storage options with the decay? So put it away or it decays.

Paper --> in books
eggs--> in a stack or some kind of egg basket that holds a dozen since omelets are popular and fun
peppers and tomatoes---> decay
grain --> bucket or clay stew pot
worms --> what if you could put like 8 in a basket of dirt? "wormy basket"
niter--> make it stack
copper, zinc, ingots -->pls stack

Just having decay for things like worms would be frustrating for people who want to fish, for example. It's not that this stuff is all trash it just needs a place to be.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#81 2019-06-04 18:25:26

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Blank paper does stack.

Notes can't stack because of the way that writing is implemented (but they can go in baskets).

For the other stuff, can you make a GitHub Data7 issue?

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#82 2019-06-04 18:30:50

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Tarr wants things to decay, but I'd rather have the resources around somewhere for possible future projects and go with futurebird's ideas (my recent town involved always feeding baby sheep for compost and except for one time where I forgot, always making a duck from dung before shoveling it).  I think Pein prefers things my way also.  This just leads back to people talking about their preferences, which apparently has now become out of the question as relevant in the first place.

So Jason, what are your preferences?  Do you prefer that food can lie around so that people can more easily have more food/yum in an advanced town?  Do you prefer storage to be more griefer proof or less griefer proof?  Do you prefer storage to conflict with the technological advancement of a town?  The latter question I would answer by saying that you do prefer good storage to conflict with the technological advancement of a town, since both rely on milkweed... but hey... I'm NOT a mind-reader.

These questions really come as part of a general pattern.  I mean, just talking about your taste and vision isn't sufficient if you want good feedback.  With your taste and vision mattering so much beyond that of your paying customers you have the responsibility of explaining in detail what that taste and vision is with respect to specific issues like storage.  At least if you want useful feedback.

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#83 2019-06-04 18:36:44

Erudaru
Member
Registered: 2018-03-19
Posts: 100

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

jasonrohrer wrote:

... Players are bad at understanding the sources of those problems, and thus, players are very bad at solving those problems themselves.  This is a general observation, and not true in all cases [...] They are too close and too involved to see the real problem, whatever that is.

I trust that you are completely right, but I that's why we have you, the designer, no? Earlier you criticized players who shared suggestions or complaints saying that they should stop that and do a better job at figuring out the problems in the game. Sorry, that's your job and you claimed to be one of the best at it.

jasonrohrer wrote:

...During playtesting, don't listen to verbal feedback from players.  Just watch silently as they play your game.  I've even been on the other end of that, when testing a game made by a friend's company.  He and I are peers as designers, and he obviously respects my design instincts, but when I was playtesting his game, he basically wanted me to shut up and play (they were videotaping both the screen and my face while I was playing).

It's one thing to test your game on someone, not wanting to pay attention to them thinking out loud. It's a different thing to tell all your players to shut up and play - disregarding players who spent their time caring deeply about your game and trying to come up with well thought-out suggestions (which are based on perceived problems the players have.)

In my opinion, even a wish like "I'd love if there were tables in OHOL" or a useless comment like "it's not fun enough", even if it doesn't fit into your vision of the game, should not be disregarded so blatantly and openly. You don't have to fulfill any wish, you don't even have to read the criticism, you should be happy that it exists because it means people engage and feel strongly about something you made.

jasonrohrer wrote:

Unfortunately, OHOL is such a long-form and variable game that watching a lot of recordings isn't practical.  But I've definitely refined the tutorial a ton by watching streamers struggle with certain parts.  Heck, I refined the tutorial a ton by watching my wife struggle with it, back in the day.  That's where the /hatchet filter system came from in the first place.

I can't figure out what you want from us or what you are trying to say. Basically what I understood is;

- You learn best from observing the player but OHOL is not suited for that approach.
- You don't have the time to go through our meaningless whining - "I'd like this", "I want that"...
- We are doing a lousy job at identifying the problems but it's because of our position as players so no wonder
- To be useful, we can still try and make clear statements of problems, but refrain from suggesting, requesting, complaining or engaging in other ways

I just think you are not aware of your tone and you need a PR person.

Last edited by Erudaru (2019-06-04 18:47:01)


Eve Thunderhawk / Eve Dragon

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#84 2019-06-04 18:46:01

Whatever
Member
Registered: 2019-02-23
Posts: 491

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Jason if you want to make to make this a very good game, then you need to play it.
Play it a lot, and like playing it.
This way you can better understand the problems it has and you will be able to come up with better solutions.
If you dont have time to play it, you dont have time to make a very good game.
Play every day at least 1 hour.
If you dont enjoy playing this game than it will be very difficult for you to improve it.

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#85 2019-06-04 19:11:58

Kamor
Member
Registered: 2019-05-14
Posts: 24

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Whatever wrote:

Jason if you want to make to make this a very good game, then you need to play it.
Play it a lot, and like playing it.
This way you can better understand the problems it has and you will be able to come up with better solutions.
If you dont have time to play it, you dont have time to make a very good game.
Play every day at least 1 hour.
If you dont enjoy playing this game than it will be very difficult for you to improve it.

That´s a good point. But playing the own games costs a lot of time. I build a map in one game and played multiply months to test it again and again. Same on a campaign i build. Some maps needed a complete weekend to test. I wished i had that playerbase here in past, helping me to balance and test my maps more. Also each game have beta-testers to help. This game has a lot of updates, simply on the vision of one man? Each update you normaly do betatesting before and this not only to find bugs, also to find logic problems or bad balancing.

Last edited by Kamor (2019-06-04 19:13:18)

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#86 2019-06-04 19:19:07

mrbah
Member
Registered: 2019-01-15
Posts: 156

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Another problem:
my brother tried playing the game, and he apparently died trying to swap the sharp rock in his hand with a dug up wild carrot/burdock root.
Is there a reason that doesn't work as he expected? couldn't that transition just spawn an object laying on the ground, rather than an object you need to interact with while holding no objects?

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#87 2019-06-04 19:24:37

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

mrbah you are correct you can't swap carrots, burdock right after you dig them since I think it's a different object? It has a different icon with soil under it. If you pick it up and move it then you can swap it.

Last edited by futurebird (2019-06-04 20:24:02)


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#88 2019-06-04 19:37:17

mrbah
Member
Registered: 2019-01-15
Posts: 156

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Another problem:
Lineage showing "Ancestor unknown".
What is the cause here? I played yesterday night and during a few minutes I could not log in, is this related to that issue?

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#89 2019-06-04 19:49:19

jasonrohrer
Administrator
Registered: 2017-02-13
Posts: 4,723

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Yeah, this is a distributed system with multiple servers and a lot of moving parts hosted separately.  The lineage server is separate, for example.  The game server connects to it and send info about your death, but sometimes it doesn't go through for various reasons.

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#90 2019-06-04 21:37:40

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Jk Howling wrote:

We offered plenty of viable solutions. The easiest? Grain storage. The coding is literally already in the game with buckets. Hell you could even just make grain dumpable in buckets. Case closed, no more grain clutter.

Actually, I'd thing that an easier solution is to add in the recipe Bowl of Mashed Berries and Carrot + Wheat Sheaf = Dry Compost Pile


Make it so people could choose to thresh it or not before composting.


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#91 2019-06-04 21:54:55

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Valareos wrote:
Jk Howling wrote:

We offered plenty of viable solutions. The easiest? Grain storage. The coding is literally already in the game with buckets. Hell you could even just make grain dumpable in buckets. Case closed, no more grain clutter.

Actually, I'd thing that an easier solution is to add in the recipe Bowl of Mashed Berries and Carrot + Wheat Sheaf = Dry Compost Pile


Make it so people could choose to thresh it or not before composting.

That won't help make baking more organized.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#92 2019-06-04 22:02:48

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

futurebird wrote:
Valareos wrote:
Jk Howling wrote:

We offered plenty of viable solutions. The easiest? Grain storage. The coding is literally already in the game with buckets. Hell you could even just make grain dumpable in buckets. Case closed, no more grain clutter.

Actually, I'd thing that an easier solution is to add in the recipe Bowl of Mashed Berries and Carrot + Wheat Sheaf = Dry Compost Pile


Make it so people could choose to thresh it or not before composting.

That won't help make baking more organized.

Trouble is, in my opinion, more of a human issue than a coding one, and its that humans nowadays are not wired for sustainability.  In one game I played, I told them to stop harvesting the wheat, because I had no more plates to make pie with. Wheat can be used at any time after it grows, so its best to leave in ground. Yet people will harvest everything, put it aside, replant, repeat, and expect people using it to keep up.

Now, I love using slotted boxes for pie making, because if you got a box of uncooked pies, and you cook one, then right click the box, it swaps out the cooked pie for an uncooked one (if all pies are same type), because right clicking a containor does not swap between all items, but swaps between each different item! (go ahead and try it with 9 items the same, one different, and right click, it will always alternate)

Farms should have boxes (slotted or not depending on item), that they fill up from their farm. And do not pick more food until their supply boxes go low. Whoever needs the items can go get it directly from the boxes. Imagine a farmer with 20 milkweeds.  He picks them all, makes 10 thread, puts them in a box, then collects the seeds to replant all the milkweed and wait till those threads need replacing (which for milkweed can be done moment they used). If no one is making rope, why bother making more thread.


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#93 2019-06-04 22:29:10

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Valareos wrote:

Farms should have boxes (slotted or not depending on item), that they fill up from their farm. And do not pick more food until their supply boxes go low. Whoever needs the items can go get it directly from the boxes. Imagine a farmer with 20 milkweeds.  He picks them all, makes 10 thread, puts them in a box, then collects the seeds to replant all the milkweed and wait till those threads need replacing (which for milkweed can be done moment they used). If no one is making rope, why bother making more thread.

That's a great idea, but it doesn't help with the issue of transporting and storing grain/flour in the bakery. Right now you have to tie up a bowl for every grain you want to store, so it's impractical to have more than 4 bowls on hand, but if you are baking pies for a large town you need a lot more than that meaning you need to leave the bakery to get wheat, possibly one bowl at a time and each time you leave someone may think no one is baking and "take over" messing up whatever organization you might have? Oh? you wanted to make one of each kind of pie for a yum station? Well sorry when you were getting wheat someone turned all your pie crusts in to rabbit pies. Oh? You wanted to make pies? someone mixed the dough and walked away and now you have bread ... hope you have a knife! Oh you don't? Well that bread will just sit there taking up space till you get one.

What I want is for wheat in the bakery to work like it works in my house or how it works with water in the bakery. You have a bucket of wheat. You collect it. You are able to use it. You don't need to stop and make trips before you can keep working.

I don't go to the store every time I need a little flour.

I don't really understand your resistance. Having a way to store wheat isn't going to impact harvesting of other crops.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#94 2019-06-04 22:36:28

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Not much of a resistance, more that I think even if you have the storage solution in place, you still will have storage problems, but in this case buckets of wheat everywhere instead of bowls of wheat.

Storage solutions are great, I am all for it. I agree with the idea of a place for everything and everything in its place.

But part of that is the overall community training on also not doing something for the sake of doing something. 

A Place for Everything, and Everything in it's Place
A Purpose for Everything, and do Everything with a Purpose


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#95 2019-06-04 23:52:38

futurebird
Member
Registered: 2019-02-20
Posts: 1,553

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Valareos wrote:

Not much of a resistance, more that I think even if you have the storage solution in place, you still will have storage problems, but in this case buckets of wheat everywhere instead of bowls of wheat.

Frankly I think the croc would be better than the bucket for wheat... but still, I don't think this will "make" people be neat. It's just that now I have to resort to making fields of "junk" outside of town and I'd rather sort those items in to places where they belong *in* town so they can be used. It makes the job of cleaning feel more productive. Right now I just feel like those people who come the hoarder's homes and make them throw everything away "I don't care if someone might want to grow a rose some day that seed has been sitting by the kiln for 200 years"

That means thinking about *work flow* for common tasks like baking, smithing etc.

People will still be messy but at least with more storage options it would feel more possible to organize the town without just chucking anything that isn't actively being used.


---
omnem cibum costis
tantum baca, non facies opus

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#96 2019-06-05 00:50:43

Valareos
Member
Registered: 2019-06-03
Posts: 133

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

futurebird wrote:
Valareos wrote:

Not much of a resistance, more that I think even if you have the storage solution in place, you still will have storage problems, but in this case buckets of wheat everywhere instead of bowls of wheat.

Frankly I think the croc would be better than the bucket for wheat... but still, I don't think this will "make" people be neat. It's just that now I have to resort to making fields of "junk" outside of town and I'd rather sort those items in to places where they belong *in* town so they can be used. It makes the job of cleaning feel more productive. Right now I just feel like those people who come the hoarder's homes and make them throw everything away "I don't care if someone might want to grow a rose some day that seed has been sitting by the kiln for 200 years"

That means thinking about *work flow* for common tasks like baking, smithing etc.

People will still be messy but at least with more storage options it would feel more possible to organize the town without just chucking anything that isn't actively being used.

But but, it took us 120 years to get that to a white, and we missed planting it, so we got another 100 years before we can make it a white seed again!


Most Memorable Life : Elisabeth Peters, Adopted by Flint Peters.  Gen 59, LD 36

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#97 2019-06-30 20:03:35

RoosterFoot
Member
Registered: 2019-06-05
Posts: 9

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

oh ok

Jason when you eat mushrooms but then die, you're still high in your next life and it doesn't end. sad

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#98 2019-06-30 20:33:28

Grim_Arbiter
Member
Registered: 2018-12-30
Posts: 942

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

RoosterFoot wrote:

oh ok

Jason when you eat mushrooms but then die, you're still high in your next life and it doesn't end. sad


60Hsprg_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium


--Grim
I'm flying high. But the worst is never first, and there's a person that'll set you straight. Cancelling the force within my brain. For flying high. The simulator has been disengaged.

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#99 2019-07-04 01:16:35

Spoonwood
Member
Registered: 2019-02-06
Posts: 3,779

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

jasonrohrer wrote:

Don't just shout REMOVE THE WAR SWORD (a solution).  Explain the problem that you're experiencing.

Swords aren't consistent with people playing for their genetic score under really any circumstance.  They aren't consistent with good parenting.  And they aren't consistent with building in the game either.  Thus, they are not consistent with fundamental game design.  If they are not removed, then it's clear that you are content to make a mediocre game of parenting civilization buidling.

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#100 2019-07-06 11:51:26

Kinrany
Member
Registered: 2018-01-22
Posts: 712

Re: What I actually, generally need when you give me feedback about OHOL

Given that the game is multiplayer, I wonder if observing a town or a building instead of a single player would make it easier to spot overarching problems.

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